Pre amp recomendation

[Marcelo Valerio]

Hello guys,

 

I would like recommendations on pre amp for my Denon X4500h 

I notice that when I'm watching movies after a while it starts to clipping 

So I did some research and I guess the problem is not enough power

So what would you guys recommend   ;D

 

I have a 5.1 setup currently 

 

2 x RP-280F (150W/8 ohms)

2 x RP-160M (100W/8 OHMS)

1 X RP-404C (125W/8 ohms)

R-115SW CE (600w)

 

Only the pre amp would solve the issue or did I  buy a wrong receiver ?

The plan was to start small and later buy more speaker ...

 

 

[Alex Atkin UK]

A pre-amp is to boost the input, its not going to do anything to solve a problem if your amp is not powerful enough to run your speakers.

 

Also AFAIK clipping usually happens when you're pushing too much power to the speakers, not too little, you're pushing the cone past its limit which will damage it.

[Marcelo Valerio]

@Alex Atkin UK thanks for replying my msg.

I'm confused now.

Because I thought that only the Denon X4500h maybe don't have enough juice to power the whole system...

Therefore making the noise of clipping quite weird noise when watching movies

 

When I bought I thought would be more then enough as it has many channels 

But after doing some reading I assumed it doesn't has enough power. 

So what do you recommend me to do in order to solve this issue?

 

Because the noise isn't pretty 

[Alex Atkin UK]

Not sure, the only time I had a clipping noise was when one of the drivers in my sub woofer failed.

 

I'd listen to see if its coming from a specific speaker that has developed a fault.

[Motifator]

I don't think you have the right terminology. Tbh I'm tired of people not understanding what is a pre, power and an integrated amp. A simple Google search will answer your question that your amp is a integrated receiver and buying a pre for it is the ultimate of pointlessness.

[Derkoli]

5 hours ago, Marcelo Valerio said:

Hello guys,

 

I would like recommendations on pre amp for my Denon X4500h 

I notice that when I'm watching movies after a while it starts to clipping 

So I did some research and I guess the problem is not enough power

So what would you guys recommend   ;D

 

I have a 5.1 setup currently 

 

2 x RP-280F (150W/8 ohms)

2 x RP-160M (100W/8 OHMS)

1 X RP-404C (125W/8 ohms)

R-115SW CE (600w)

 

Only the pre amp would solve the issue or did I  buy a wrong receiver ?

The plan was to start small and later buy more speaker ...

 

 

Dude how loud are you listening?

 

Your surround receiver is rated to 125W per channel at 8 ohms.

 

Your mains are quite efficient, so they should be getting incredibly loud.

 

First I'd go through all your settings and check you don't have some weird limiter turned on, or anything like that.

 

If your amp is really clipping, you can always add a seperate power amplifier to your setup as your receiver has pre-outs. Something from Crown, QSC, Apart, LAB Gruppen and some other manufacturers would work well.

 

Really, if your budget allows, getting a seperate processor (takes in HDMI and other sources, spits out audio into seperate analogue channels) and power amplifier (just boosts the signal to give it to your speakers) is always best IMO.

[Marcelo Valerio]

@Derkoli hey man!

You are right that the Denon X4500h with a 11.2 channels at 125w would be more then enough for my 5.1 setup

But there is a very misleading piece of information in there. 

Its 125w per channel but only a max of 2 channels at a time.

I just learned about it when researching what was wrong with my system.

That's why I came to the conclusion that I might need am amplifier to give proper power to the system as the two front speakers already surpass the 125w by being 150w each plus  the 125w from the center channel

 

Thanks for the replay

I'm going to read some more before placing a purchase 

And perhaps when I'm in Vegas next week in holidays drop by a specialised store to get some more information...

 

And by the way there is a sticker on the front side of denon that says 200w with audyssye

Do you know what does that mean?

I can post a picture later when I get back home

 

[Derkoli]

14 hours ago, Marcelo Valerio said:

You are right that the Denon X4500h with a 11.2 channels at 125w would be more then enough for my 5.1 setup

But there is a very misleading piece of information in there. 

Its 125w per channel but only a max of 2 channels at a time.

It still should be able to push a 5.1 system to reference listening levels.

 

Even if its spitting out 75W a channel, that's still quite alot.

 

Either way, if you are clipping the built-in power amps, you'll need something external. Just getting something seperate for the front mains (your RP-280F's) will let the Denon give your other channels some more power.

 

Just make sure whatever you buy is specced to provide over 125W per channel at 8 ohms. Also remembers your speakers will dip below 8 ohms, so if the amp can provide lots more power at 4/6 ohms, then that'd be great.

 

You should also get a sound quality increase from external amplification. Most AVR's sound like crap. Including my Denon X8500H, which sounded mediocre at best, especially if I fed anything decent with it.

[cmndr]

Most of the time pre-amps are pointless for AVRs. Pre-amps let you carry analog signal over a greater distance or they're used along the chain of going from digital to analog. AVRs have pre-amps built in and you're going from HDMI (or similar) to an analog output with the AVR doing the conversion.

If you're experiencing clipping you likely have a damaged driver or have a HUGE room (think 40'x40') and are pumping the volume to compensate. Or you're listening at 130dB from the listening position (loudness of a jet taking off from 3 feet away).

 

 

---

 

For laughs I'm going to do back of the envelope calculations assuming 88dB efficiency for your Klipsch speakers. I'll also assume you're 2 meters away (about 6.5') and are listening at 0dB on the AVR... at that level your speakers' baseline power draw is... 1W. If you have transient peaks of +20dB then you'll spike at 100W. 105dB sound pressure is as loud as a chainsaw from 3' away. It will cause permanent hearing damage if sustained.
 

If you listen at -10dB (as I do, because full reference level hurts my ears and will actually start causing hearing damage) then your transient peaks will only be 10W. If the speakers are only 85dB efficient then it'd be around 20W. If you sit 13' away then that would jump to 80W.

You're probably not really taxing your 9 channel AVR by running half as many speakers as its rated for at half load (1% of the time) and a fraction of a percent of its max load 99% of the time.
 

 

On 9/14/2022 at 11:49 PM, Marcelo Valerio said:

@Derkoli hey man!

You are right that the Denon X4500h with a 11.2 channels at 125w would be more then enough for my 5.1 setup

11 channels of processing 9 of amplification. you need an external amp for the other 2 channels (I have more or less the same AVR just with some stuff tweaked). If you ever go to an 11 channel set up, I'd suggest setting up the back atmos channels on an Aiyima A07. Or dropping $$$ and amplifying the L+R with something higher end (something like 80% of non-bass comes from the front sound stage).

 

 

On 9/14/2022 at 11:49 PM, Marcelo Valerio said:

Its 125w per channel but only a max of 2 channels at a time.

I just learned about it when researching what was wrong with my system.

That's why I came to the conclusion that I might need am amplifier to give proper power to the system as the two front speakers already surpass the 125w by being 150w each plus  the 125w from the center channel

AVR wattage math is funny. Adding up all the numbers doesn't really tell you anything in the real world since 99% of the time you'll be drawing WAY WAY WAY under the number on the box from the speakers.

Most of the time though you'll only get meaningful amounts of sound from a handful of speakers. It's exceedingly rare for EVERYTHING to blare all at once. If I had to guess, MAYBE during really bass heavy scenes but you should probably be passing off those low frequencies to a subwoofer (or two or three) instead of trying to squeeze bass out of a tiny speaker.

From my understanding, the bulk of the amplifiers in an AVR can independently do something like 125W but all 5 can't do 125W at the same time (maybe if you add a fan outside the AVR, blowing across the heatsinks), maybe something like 300 (figure pulled from rear). This is mostly fine because 99% of the time any given speaker will only pull like 0.1-3W total. Even then during the transient peaks most of the time the power is handled by whatever is stored in the capacitors so not really a big ramp up on the unit.

 

If you want to sanity check that all... you have "1000W" or so worth of speakers. Does it feel like you have a 1000W space heater on? Nope... yeah, that's because nowhere near that much heat is getting produced. The AVR and subwoofer(s) might be pumping out 50-100W total and that includes power loss from conversions, processing, etc.

All things considered, your AVR is probably "fine" and if anything it's "better" than your speakers.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x4700-avr-review-updated.14493/

On 9/14/2022 at 11:49 PM, Marcelo Valerio said:

Thanks for the replay

I'm going to read some more before placing a purchase 

And perhaps when I'm in Vegas next week in holidays drop by a specialised store to get some more information...

 

And by the way there is a sticker on the front side of denon that says 200w with audyssye

Do you know what does that mean?

I can post a picture later when I get back home

 

The Watt figure on speakers is half-meaningless and higher figures usually just means that they're not very efficient at full tilt and/or that they won't be damaged if run at that level.

You could probably play your front speakers, "OK" using a high quality 5W tube amp. Not that I suggest tube amps (expensive, not reliable, inaccurate sound).
 

https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/blog/pa/how-many-watts-the-truth-about-speakers-and-power-output/

 

On 9/14/2022 at 5:03 PM, Derkoli said:

Really, if your budget allows, getting a seperate processor (takes in HDMI and other sources, spits out audio into seperate analogue channels) and power amplifier (just boosts the signal to give it to your speakers) is always best IMO.

The processing on any "not bad" AVR is probably good enough that going separates is often dubious. It's really easy to spend MORE money on a processor than on an AVR (that does processing AND amplification) that has pre-outs. Amplifying the Left/Right and/or center is often "good enough" to get 90% of the benefit of having a hardcore dedicated external amp for all of the channels, since most of the sound comes from the LCR anyway.

 

[geo3]

Yeah a pre-amp is the last thing you want in this situation. If you're clipping now boosting the input signal will only make things worse. 

[Marcelo Valerio]

Wowww guys this community is incredible so much knowledge being shared.

I thank you each one of you that took the time to help with my thread.

I have got in contact with the Denon representative here in Germany and I have sent in my receiver for inspection.

When I get an update from then 

If there was something wrong with my unit... I'll share the feed back here if they find nothing then I'm getting read of this unit and look for something also.

Thanks everybody 

All the best

 

@Derkoli hey man!

You are right that the Denon X4500h with a 11.2 channels at 125w would be more then enough for my 5.1 setup

But there is a very misleading piece of information in there. 

Its 125w per channel but only a max of 2 channels at a time.

I just learned about it when researching what was wrong with my system.

That's why I came to the conclusion that I might need am amplifier to give proper power to the system as the two front speakers already surpass the 125w by being 150w each plus  the 125w from the center channel

 

Thanks for the replay

I'm going to read some more before placing a purchase 

And perhaps when I'm in Vegas next week in holidays drop by a specialised store to get some more information...

 

And by the way there is a sticker on the front side of denon that says 200w with audyssye

Do you know what does that mean?

I can post a picture later when I get back home