Surprising A Friend By Hooking Them Up With An Upgrade...

[An0maly_76]

Budget (including currency): As little as possible, but would like to avoid total jank where possible.

Country: USA

Games, programs or workloads that it will be used for: Dictation, audio recording, optical and other media, some gaming

Other details (existing parts lists, whether any peripherals are needed, what you're upgrading from, when you're going to buy, what resolution and refresh rate you want to play at, etc): 

Repurposing some parts from older machines...

 

So, a good friend of mine, has what I believe is an old Dell OptiPlex 390, with an i3-2100. Very basic machine, obviously. It pretty much does what he needs, though I suspect he'd do more with a better machine. However, he is on disability and can't really afford upgrades or replacement if it dies. Poor guy was making do with a graphic design monitor with a very oddball aspect ratio until I gifted him a 19" widescreen I didn't need anymore. I'd considered repurposing a similar machine for a media NAS with what I have on hand and a little bargain hunting, but this fellow has been pretty good to me, so it occurs to me this stuff might serve him better, as I have a 5900X and 3060ti. A 1700 Ryzen and a GTX1650S OC would be a substantial improvement over what he has.

 

So, off the cuff, this is what I have to contribute to the build:

 

Ryzen 7 1700

Stock AMD Wraith Stealth cooler

32GB of Crucial Ballistix DDR4-3200

1TB WD Blue SN550 M.2 NVME

1TB WD Blue SN570 M.2 NVME

Asus TUF Gaming GTX1650S-4GB-OC

2TB WD Blue 7200 RPM

Corsair iCUE Lighting Node Pro

Corsair iCUE Lighting Node Core (x2)

 

Most of this stuff is in my previous rig, which has an MSI B450M Bazooka, Channel Well Technologies GP500S-A, in a CyberPowerPC Onyxia case, which I find less than ideal for the purpose.

 

Since I have the Corsair Lighting Nodes, I would like to see about possibly overclocking the 1700 just a bit, using iCUE's temperature monitoring RGB control as I have done on my 5900X. I am open to suggestions on a better cooler.

 

His current machine so happens to have a DVD-RW drive (presumably SATA II) that would do nicely in this build, which will need an external 5.25" bay. A front-facing I/O would be nice, but it's not imperative. So for cases, I am considering the Rosewill FBM-X1, Rosewill Ranger-M, Zalman T6, Fractal Design 1000, as well as this Rosewill of unknown model. I'm leaning toward the Zaiman T6, as I am considering a Corsair CX750F with RGB that according to Corsair can be controlled via iCUE, and would light up the interior nicely from above in this case. However, this case does not offer much visibility other than the fan vent, so any other suggestions, feel free to chime in.

 

As for the board, I'd pretty much decided on the ASRock B550M-HDV, but it occurs to me it might not be ideal for even moderate overclocking with an 8-core, even if it is a 65W chip. It's not like it's a Zen3, but I wonder about temperatures. Maybe it will be fine as long as I don't get stupid with the voltage? Maybe undervolting would be better to keep temps down for more consistent clock speeds? As I remember, the 1700 never topped 25% CPU usage even when playing American Truck Simulator, so perhaps it's not even necessary?

 

For fans, I'm considering either SP120s or LL120s all around. Most of these cases only fit four fans, which I believe should be plenty, as six keep my 5900X in the green even with PBO. If anyone knows of cheaper RGB fans that are just as good and don't look cheesy, feel free to chime in here, too.

 

I believe the Lighting Node Cores use 4-pin, and the Lighting Node Pro uses 3-pin. Can they do everything their respective Commander counterparts can do? If not, what functions are available with these? And is it possible to run both, each controlling half the fans separately?

 

As a bonus, I've also found a 60hz 32" widescreen locally for $75 I plan to include if it's still available.

 

The SN550 has the 1700's current hardware configuration and Windows install on it. If everything is still the same apart from the board, is a fresh install still necessary?

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by An0maly_76
Typo

[Somerandomtechyboi]

13 minutes ago, An0maly_76 said:

As for the board, I'd pretty much decided on the ASRock B550M-HDV, but it occurs to me it might not be ideal for even moderate overclocking with an 8-core

Thanks for noticing that mr obvious xD

 

Thing is youll prob get better compatibility with a used b450 or b350 so i suggest getting a midrange b450 like the asrock pro4/steel legend, theyll prob be sub 60$ considering thats what i can find em for here in developing indonesia so since you are in the us i suspect youll find better deals for cheaper, heck you may even be able to find cheap x370/470, though for midrange boards just focus on i/o only since the vrm is most likely fine, ram topology doesnt matter unless you are dealing with 4dimms

 

Oc wise i would just stick with intel 14nn spec for vcore (1.52v) but unlikely youll need to or can go over 1.4v, micron rev e is light on the imc but unsure of rev b, expect ~3600-3800 for micron ics

 

Also you sure the guy will even give a crap about lights? Hes making do with an optiplex after all so i doubt he would care about lights, fan wise you can get phanteks fsk for rgbs, psu rgb is just f fing stupid so i dont suggest spending on rgb on that, btw 600w segotep gp is at 50$ and 850w gf1 pe is at 90$ for psu reccomendations, there is used psus but i doubt youll care about those

[An0maly_76]

23 minutes ago, Somerandomtechyboi said:

Thing is youll prob get better compatibility with a used b450 or b350 so i suggest getting a midrange b450 like the asrock pro4/steel legend, theyll prob be sub 60$ *snip* i suspect youll find better deals for cheaper, heck you may even be able to find cheap x370/470, though for midrange boards just focus on i/o only since the vrm is most likely fine, ram topology doesnt matter unless you are dealing with 4dimms

Oc wise i would just stick with intel 14nn spec for vcore (1.52v) but unlikely youll need to or can go over 1.4v, micron rev e is light on the imc but unsure of rev b, expect ~3600-3800 for micron ics

 

Also you sure the guy will even give a crap about lights? Hes making do with an optiplex after all so i doubt he would care about lights, fan wise you can get phanteks fsk for rgbs, psu rgb is just f fing stupid so i dont suggest spending on rgb on that, btw 600w segotep gp is at 50$ and 850w gf1 pe is at 90$ for psu reccomendations, there is used psus but i doubt youll care about those

RGB / lighting probably aren't of particular concern to him, no. Sure, I can get non-RGB Arctic P12s for cheap, and I might still do that yet. I'm not entirely sure overclocking is even necessary, given that I never saw the 1700 top 25% usage in its current configuration. I plan to test this thing before I deliver, but I think setting it up to give an early warning of high temps is a good idea, and the CyberPower case has two or three RGB 120s in it. Ideally, the case I use for this will have good ventilation top, rear and front if possible. Ventilation allows light to filter through also, so why not, since I've got three perfectly good brand-new unused Corsair lighting nodes?

 

As to the motherboard, I have DDR4-3200 to put in this thing, and most older boards I've looked up such as A320s tend to be capped at 1333 or some other speed. I'm looking up specs on B450s now for comparison. ASRock's site indicates the HDV does indeed support the 1700, however, if there's some reason the B450 or A320 would work better even with DDR4-3200, I'm all ears.

Edited June 16, 2022 by An0maly_76
Revised, more info

[Zando_]

46 minutes ago, An0maly_76 said:

but it occurs to me it might not be ideal for even moderate overclocking with an 8-core, even if it is a 65W chip.

OCing isn't really worth it on these chips, and newer ones have PBO, so as long as the VRMs can handle that then it's no sweat. Zen/Zen+ were not worth the work to get more than +200Mhz out of them (and that's the slimmest margin where you might notice a performance uplift in actual use).

21 minutes ago, Somerandomtechyboi said:

Oc wise i would just stick with intel 14nn spec for vcore (1.52v) but unlikely youll need to or can go over 1.4v, micron rev e is light on the imc but unsure of rev b, expect ~3600-3800 for micron ics

Excuse me, what in the god damn fuck? AMD chips are not Intel, even for Intel 14nm over 1.45v isn't reccomended for daily. For Zen/Zen+ 1.42v was the spicy edge, you really wanted to stick at 1.4v or lower.

For RAM, you won't get above 2933Mhz on Zen+ without some good luck and more work than it's worth (and IIRC it can perform worse due to the link between Ryzen's infinity fabric and RAM speed, I believe that was still a thing with overly fast RAM on Zen). There's no reason to get anything past 3000-3200Mhz (you'll have to manually set either to 2933 in the BIOS, but once the friend is able to get a newer chip they can run the full speed).

3 minutes ago, An0maly_76 said:

ASRock's site indicates the HDV does indeed support the 1700, however, if there's some reason the B450 or A320 would work better even with DDR4-3200, I'm all ears.

RAM speed is more dependent on the CPUs, Zen rarely handled above 2933Mhz, Zen+ rarely handled above 3200Mhz, so no sense getting faster than that.

[Elisis]

28 minutes ago, Somerandomtechyboi said:

Oc wise i would just stick with intel 14nn spec for vcore (1.52v)

Have you ever owned a single AMD product from the past, oh, 5 years?

[The Blackhat]

28 minutes ago, Somerandomtechyboi said:

Thanks for noticing that mr obvious xD

 

Thing is youll prob get better compatibility with a used b450 or b350 so i suggest getting a midrange b450 like the asrock pro4/steel legend, theyll prob be sub 60$ considering thats what i can find em for here in developing indonesia so since you are in the us i suspect youll find better deals for cheaper, heck you may even be able to find cheap x370/470, though for midrange boards just focus on i/o only since the vrm is most likely fine, ram topology doesnt matter unless you are dealing with 4dimms

 

Oc wise i would just stick with intel 14nn spec for vcore (1.52v) but unlikely youll need to or can go over 1.4v, micron rev e is light on the imc but unsure of rev b, expect ~3600-3800 for micron ics

 

Also you sure the guy will even give a crap about lights? Hes making do with an optiplex after all so i doubt he would care about lights, fan wise you can get phanteks fsk for rgbs, psu rgb is just f fing stupid so i dont suggest spending on rgb on that, btw 600w segotep gp is at 50$ and 850w gf1 pe is at 90$ for psu reccomendations, there is used psus but i doubt youll care about those

Um…Intel had many revisions of 14nm, and none of those revisions are specced to 1.52, in fact most of them are around 1.35. 

But that’s irrelevant because Zen isn’t Intel…

[An0maly_76]

43 minutes ago, Zando_ said:

OCing isn't really worth it on these chips, and newer ones have PBO, so as long as the VRMs can handle that then it's no sweat. Zen/Zen+ were not worth the work to get more than +200Mhz out of them (and that's the slimmest margin where you might notice a performance uplift in actual use). *SNIP*

 

For RAM, you won't get above 2933Mhz on Zen+ without some good luck and more work than it's worth (and IIRC it can perform worse due to the link between Ryzen's infinity fabric and RAM speed, I believe that was still a thing with overly fast RAM on Zen). For Zen/Zen+ 1.42v was the spicy edge, you really wanted to stick at 1.4v or lower.  There's no reason to get anything past 3000-3200Mhz (you'll have to manually set either to 2933 in the BIOS, but once the friend is able to get a newer chip they can run the full speed). RAM speed is more dependent on the CPUs, Zen rarely handled above 2933Mhz, Zen+ rarely handled above 3200Mhz, so no sense getting faster than that.

So essentially, OC'ing a Zen+ or even a Zen2 is more or less p*ssing up a rope, it seems. It would further seem that 3200 is indeed overkill, as the AMD site states a max of 2666 Mhz for the 1700. Ah, fooey. Unless my friend wins the lottery, I don't see him upgrading this thing. Even if that were a remote possibility, I'd still stick with a B550, as I don't really trust any Zen3 to a B450 after the fiasco with the one I currently have. It runs, but to me, has been temperamental. I had sort of let slip the idea by mentioning that if he could spring for a better board, I'd build it for him, but he said he's very tight on money, which I already knew.

 

If my friend wants to unload his current OptiPlex 390, I could easily do the same thing with that, maybe flip it for some cash as a light gaming machine -- Low-profile GPUs aren't horrendously expensive in comparison to their full-size counterparts. Even a SFF could be a semi-serious contender if warmed over with a 3600 Ryzen on a B550 with an M.2 NVME, 16GB of RAM and a low-profile GTX1650-OC. Even if it sold at at half the cost of a similar prebuilt, I wouldn't be losing anything, and it would be a fun project on both counts. The M71E may yet get similar treatment, the aforementioned AsRock B550M-HDV board with a 4600G.

Edited June 16, 2022 by An0maly_76
Revised, more info

[Zando_]

1 minute ago, An0maly_76 said:

So essentially, OC'ing a Zen+ or even a Zen2 is more or less p*ssing up a rope, it seems.

Pretty much.

1 minute ago, An0maly_76 said:

It would further seem that 3200 is indeed overkill, as the AMD site states a max of 2666 Mhz for the 1700.

Just get a decent 3000Mhz kit, apply the DOCP profile (so it uses the timings and subtimings), manually bump the RAM speed back down to 2933Mhz, and it should be fine. Tis what I did for my R5 1600 (which then went in a gift build for a friend alongside a 980 Ti).

4 minutes ago, An0maly_76 said:

I'd still stick with a B550, as I don't really trust any Zen3 to a B450 after the fiasco with the one I currently have.

Haven't had issues with 2200G's on ASRock's ITX B450 board (those are Zen CPUs IIRC, I think the 3000 series APUs were the Zen+ ones) so it seems like it's luck with the specific CPU model and motherboard.

 

[An0maly_76]

1 hour ago, Zando_ said:

Just get a decent 3000Mhz kit, apply the DOCP profile (so it uses the timings and subtimings), manually bump the RAM speed back down to 2933Mhz, and it should be fine.

Here's what's weird. This exact 1700 has run with this exact DDR4-3200 CL16 kit for about two and half years now. You tell me...

 

I've read and heard that adapters are available, but that this doesn't always work. I have one controller with two three-pin ports, and two controllers with six four-pin ports each, and right now I'm confused as to what is what. I believe what I have, respectively, are a Lighting Node Core (uncased PCB with six 4-pin ports), a Lighting Node Pro (shrouded with two 3-pin ports), and possibly a fan hub NOT of the Commander series (shrouded with six 4-pin ports). My understanding is that lighting nodes allow iCUE to control the RGB and lighting, but not the fan speed, while a fan hub should be able to do both.

 

The case I've found that interests me for this build, is a Gamdias Apollo E2 Elite. It comes with two 200s in front and a non-RGB 100 or 120 in the rear, with room for two fans from 120-200 mm up top, a total of five if I replace the rear with RGB also. I'd like to add three 120s top and rear, Gamdias of course, so they all match. These fans use 3-pin 5V addressable RGB, which I understand should be compatible with Corsair controllers, so going by that, it should work. What I'm curious about, is that the only 3-pin controller I have (Lighting Node Pro?) only has two ports. So do I just get a splitter cable for each fan I want to connect over the two? Is it really that simple?

Edited June 16, 2022 by An0maly_76
Revised, more info

[Somerandomtechyboi]

4 hours ago, Zando_ said:

Just get a decent 3000Mhz kit, apply the DOCP profile (so it uses the timings and subtimings), manually bump the RAM speed back down to 2933Mhz, and it should be fine

Theres no reason to downclock if 3000 or higher works fine and is stable, thats just needless performance waste, personally i use prime95 large ffts for ram test though there are other good options like hci memtest or tm5

 

3 hours ago, An0maly_76 said:

Here's what's weird. This exact 1700 has run with this exact DDR4-3200 CL16 kit for about two and half years

micron rev e (and maybe even rev b) is very light on the imc so not surprising that 3200 works fine here, look at the 4th post of the micron rev e thread and theres another example of micron rev e being really light on the imc

[An0maly_76]

But perhaps on second thought, giving the issues I've had with the board, perhaps the 3200 has been causing that. Now that I think about it, the issues do seem to start about the time I upgraded to it.

 

Specifically, I simultaneously added the RAM, an SN550 M.2 NVME, and a GTX 1650. The board reported a VGA error and refused to boot with the new card. However, it booted with the old card, even with the new RAM, so that would indicate it didn't like the 1650, not the RAM. But is it possible the RAM was a factor there? I ask because the B450M board shut down, had to be RMA'd and has been somewhat neurotic since then. Even if that may be the case, though, it doesn't change the fact that their support has been nothing less than incompetent.

[Zando_]

9 hours ago, An0maly_76 said:

Here's what's weird. This exact 1700 has run with this exact DDR4-3200 CL16 kit for about two and half years now. You tell me...

Sounds like you got lucky, most of these chips wouldn't POST with above 2933Mhz. 

56 minutes ago, An0maly_76 said:

But perhaps on second thought, giving the issues I've had with the board, perhaps the 3200 has been causing that. Now that I think about it, the issues do seem to start about the time I upgraded to it.

What kind of issues? If it's weird instability then yeah that can often be RAM, but it could be timings or voltages, usually if the CPU can't run the speed it just will not POST to begin with.

5 hours ago, Somerandomtechyboi said:

Theres no reason to downclock if 3000 or higher works fine and is stable, thats just needless performance waste

Thankyou captain obvious. The reason for the 2933Mhz reccomendation is that most Zen chips will not run RAM faster than that. If they do, and it's stable, then obviously there'd be no reason to downclock. 

 

[An0maly_76]

36 minutes ago, Zando_ said:

Sounds like you got lucky, most of these chips wouldn't POST with above 2933Mhz. 

What kind of issues? If it's weird instability then yeah that can often be RAM, but it could be timings or voltages, usually if the CPU can't run the speed it just will not POST to begin with. The reason for the 2933Mhz reccomendation is that most Zen chips will not run RAM faster than that. If they do, and it's stable, then obviously there'd be no reason to downclock. 

 

Yeah, you could say weird instability. It didn't really crash or anything, just didn't seem to be running quite right. In light of this, it seems the board is likely fine, and I should put 2933 or lower in it and put this 32GB kit in my 5900X rig, on which I now fear I spent a nice chunk of change on for no good reason.

 

Certainly the 1700 rig won't be near as fast, but it never really needed to be -- I wasn't seeing much over 25% CPU utilization and the GTX1650S in it rarely topped 85%. I was recommended this 3200 kit when I upgraded, apparently someone didn't know about Zen+ and that 2933 Mhz limitation, and obviously I didn't, which has led me to give some slightly flawed advice here in retrospect. So now, where do I find 2933 Mhz to test that theory? I haven't seen it anywhere before.

Edited June 16, 2022 by An0maly_76
Revised, more info

[Zando_]

6 minutes ago, An0maly_76 said:

apparently someone didn't know about Zen+ and that 2933 Mhz limitation

Zen+ was usually fine with 3200Mhz, 1700 is Zen. 

6 minutes ago, An0maly_76 said:

So now, where do I find 2933 Mhz to test that theory? I haven't seen it anywhere before.

I just used a 3000Mhz kit and set the speed to 2933Mhz. It's close enough to 3000Mhz that the XMP timings and sub-timings have no issues, and the CPU was happy with it so . 

[An0maly_76]

Just now, Zando_ said:

Zen+ was usually fine with 3200Mhz, 1700 is Zen. 

I just used a 3000Mhz kit and set the speed to 2933Mhz. It's close enough to 3000Mhz that the XMP timings and sub-timings have no issues, and the CPU was happy with it so . 

So OC a 2666 kit, or UC a 3000. Got it.

[An0maly_76]

Current Amazon prices for 2666 Ballistix...

 

16GB (2x8)

 

Black - $68

Red - $85

White - $90

 

32GB (2x16)

 

Black - $229

Red - $137

White - $180

 

Wow. WTH...

 

Given the 1700 machine has an MSI B450M Bazooka, will 32GB make that much of a difference over 16GB in this case? And are the Sport or Sport LT any better vs standard Ballistix? Or is it tomato, to-mah-to? Either way, it's starting to sound like all I really need to do is swap the 3200 for 2666 and OC it if desired, which seems like it will be a lot smarter (and less) money spent on this...

Edited June 16, 2022 by An0maly_76
Revised, more info

[Somerandomtechyboi]

7 hours ago, An0maly_76 said:

Yeah, you could say weird instability. It didn't really crash or anything, just didn't seem to be running quite right. In light of this, it seems the board is likely fine, and I should put 2933 or lower in it and put this 32GB kit in my 5900X rig, on which I now fear I spent a nice chunk of change on for no good reason.

You can test with prime95 large ffts or any other ram stress test like tm5, hci memtest, etc.

 

If you are buying <3000 then buy used as you arent saving any money and all you get are shittier old ics, i already said e die was really light on the imc so no surprise it runs 3200 fine, wouldnt be surprised if it runs 3600 either

 

I suggest finding some used bare pcb crucial 2666 sticks since you can actually look at the ics themselves and find decent ones, for 2666 bin the decent ones seem to be d9vpp and c9bjz, unsure about other ics like d9tbh or any other ics you can find for the same bin, they do 4500+ with ease just like ballistix though we only care about them being light for the imc so 3600 should be acheivable