PSU Buzzing noise when connected to UPS

[DavyJ]

Hello there,

I'm using a Corsair Builder series VS650 650W 80+ power supply (the orange one). I use Tuncmatik 1000VA as UPS (max 600w). It outputs a simulated square wave.

My problem is that when the power is cut off and the UPS is activated, the PSU starts buzzing noise. When I contact the UPS manufacturer and asked about it, they said it was because of the square wave output and they said it could not give stable 220V voltage. They said that the UPS gave a variable voltage in the range of 200-210V and the noise was caused by that. Although it is not a problem for now, they said that it may burn the motherboard or damage the hardware in the future and they said that I should buy an on-line UPS.

What should I do? Is there really a chance of my hardware getting burned as they say? If so, why are they producing offline UPS? Waiting for your ideas...

Thanks a lot...

[An0maly_76]

Sounds like ground loop noise. Why do you need 220V?

Edited March 7, 2022 by An0maly_76

[Donut417]

8 minutes ago, DavyJ said:

If so, why are they producing offline UPS? Waiting for your ideas...

  

What you refer as a offline UPS is a backup UPS. They are just battery backup. Not all things care if its square sine waves. Some PSU's are Active PFC and require a real sine wave to operate. Most likely your PSU is one of those. Backup UPS's are cheap, and are great for things like modems, routers, switches and other lower powered devices. 

 

Basically there are 3 main types of UPS's. Backup which are the cheapest. Line Interactive which can smooth the power going in to devices. And Online which runs on battery all the time and uses the mains power to trickle charge the batteries, these offers the greatest level of protection. Online units are expensive AF. 

[DavyJ]

2 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

  

What you refer as a offline UPS is a backup UPS. They are just battery backup. Not all things care if its square sine waves. Some PSU's are Active PFC and require a real sine wave to operate. Most likely your PSU is one of those. Backup UPS's are cheap, and are great for things like modems, routers, switches and other lower powered devices. 

 

Basically there are 3 main types of UPS's. Backup which are the cheapest. Line Interactive which can smooth the power going in to devices. And Online which runs on battery all the time and uses the mains power to trickle charge the batteries, these offers the greatest level of protection. Online units are expensive AF. 

Oh okay thanks for info. So what should I do? So this UPS is faulty? Or is it a problem that can be encountered in UPSs that are not online? It can keep the pc on when the power goes out, but the buzzing noise I mentioned worries me.

[An0maly_76]

If you're in the States, 220V is entirely too high for your computer, and that is likely why it is having a fit. Your power supply should be designed for 110V not 220V. I would swap this UPS for a 110V true / pure sine version. An electrician could probably step this thing down to 110 fairly easily, but if it's not pure / true sine, that's another problem. And yes, it will fry your equipment if it's 110. Remove it from the equation until you know for sure.

[DavyJ]

Just now, An0maly_76 said:

If you're in the States, 220V is entirely too high for your computer, and that is likely why it is having a fit. Your power supply should be designed for 110V not 220V. I would swap this UPS for a 110V true / pure sine version. An electrician could probably step this thing down to 110 fairly easily, but if it's not pure / true sine, that's another problem. And yes, it will fry your equipment if it's 110. Remove it from the equation until you know for sure.

No I'm living in Turkey, fixed mains voltage here is 220V.

[An0maly_76]

4 minutes ago, DavyJ said:

No I'm living in Turkey, fixed mains voltage here is 220V.

I see, said the blind man. LOL.

 

I would check your power supply to be sure it's rated for 220V though. Most I've seen are built for 110V. My dad is an electrician. He tried to explain to me one time, and I didn't entirely get it, but what I understand is that AC carries a ground and neutral standard. Each 'hot' is referred to as a 'leg', and each 'leg' is generally 110V to 120V. Hence, a 220V circuit can be stepped down to 110V by disconnecting one 'leg', or 'hot'. 110x2 = 220, 120x2 = 240, 120x3 = 360. And then you have single-phase, three-phase, etc.

 

If it's rated for 220V, then it sounds like ground loop noise, as I originally said.

Edited March 7, 2022 by An0maly_76

[An0maly_76]

Oh, and BTW, my dad told me 10% under / overvoltage is generally acceptable and perfectly normal. So 200 on a 220 is pushing it, but acceptable. Overly sensitive electronics might not like it though.

[DavyJ]

2 minutes ago, An0maly_76 said:

I see, said the blind man. LOL.

 

I would check your power supply to be sure it's rated for 220V though. Most I've seen are built for 110V. My dad is an electrician. He tried to explain to me one time, and I didn't entirely get it, but what I understand is that AC carries a ground and neutral standard. Each 'hot' is referred to as a 'leg', and each 'leg' is generally 110V to 120V. Hence, a 220V circuit can be stepped down to 110V by disconnecting one 'leg', or 'hot'. 110x2 = 220, 120x2 = 240, 120x3 = 360. And then you have single-phase, three-phase, etc.

 

If it's rated for 220V, then it sounds like ground loop noise, as I originally said.

Yes it's rated for 220V, I'm not sure though, it sounded like a scary sound. Tomorrow I'll go to the place where I bought the UPS and start the warranty process and send it to the service. Do you think it is possible that the product is faulty or is it ground loop noise as you say? Actually I want to know if it will definitely damage my hardware. Damn, what I bought to protect my computer turns out to be killing it.

1 minute ago, An0maly_76 said:

Oh, and BTW, my dad told me 10% under / overvoltage is generally acceptable and perfectly normal. So 200 on a 220 is pushing it, but acceptable. Overly sensitive electronics might not like it though.

Oh thank you for that! So if they say that there is no problem in the service, I can be convinced that it is a completely natural sound, thank you.

[mariushm]

It's a bit of a mix of answers some correct and others not. 

 

The buzzing is most likely caused by the inductors of the 5v stand-by circuit on the power supply, because they work a bit outside the normal operating mode ( circuit is probably "optimized" for a smooth sine wave input but the circuit receives input in the form of steps or jumps)

The circuit probably has to work harder and to adjust constantly its operation to account for the irregular sine wave of the input, which makes that inductor make noise.

 

The power supply of your computer is made out of TWO power supplies : a small 5v stand-by powers supply (like a typical phone charger) which runs 24/7 and the actual power supply that provides power to the components when the PC is ON. 

 

Inside the power supply the circuit goes something like this :  220v ---> convert AC to DC in bridge rectifier ---> ~ 325v DC --->  Active PFC (boosts 325v to 400-425v) ---> smoothing capacitors to smooth out the DC voltage --->  convert 400-420v DC to 12v / 5v / 3.3v 

 

When the PC is off, the main power supply part is shut down and only the stand-by power supply remains functional, which may be connected before the Active PFC section. 

So, the stand by circuit normally would see input voltage rectified by the bridge rectifier, up to around 325v DC but instead of seeing the voltage nicely go up gradually, it goes up in steps. It's just different.

 

 

[DavyJ]

24 minutes ago, mariushm said:

It's a bit of a mix of answers some correct and others not. 

 

The buzzing is most likely caused by the inductors of the 5v stand-by circuit on the power supply, because they work a bit outside the normal operating mode ( circuit is probably "optimized" for a smooth sine wave input but the circuit receives input in the form of steps or jumps)

The circuit probably has to work harder and to adjust constantly its operation to account for the irregular sine wave of the input, which makes that inductor make noise.

 

The power supply of your computer is made out of TWO power supplies : a small 5v stand-by powers supply (like a typical phone charger) which runs 24/7 and the actual power supply that provides power to the components when the PC is ON. 

 

Inside the power supply the circuit goes something like this :  220v ---> convert AC to DC in bridge rectifier ---> ~ 325v DC --->  Active PFC (boosts 325v to 400-425v) ---> smoothing capacitors to smooth out the DC voltage --->  convert 400-420v DC to 12v / 5v / 3.3v 

 

When the PC is off, the main power supply part is shut down and only the stand-by power supply remains functional, which may be connected before the Active PFC section. 

So, the stand by circuit normally would see input voltage rectified by the bridge rectifier, up to around 325v DC but instead of seeing the voltage nicely go up gradually, it goes up in steps. It's just different.

 

 

So, as you mentioned, will the inductors working harder than normal cause a serious hardware problem? As far as I understand, the waves sent by the UPS are more irregular than the waves coming from the mains. For this reason, the first part of the PSU is corrected extra by the 5V stand-by circuit, which causes the inductors to work harder. In other words, the irregular energy given by the UPS is corrected "albeit the hard way" by the PSU. The resulting sound is also a side effect of this fix.

I hope I understood correctly. 

 

In this case, do I need to switch to a different UPS or does this indicate that the UPS is faulty? Is it okay to use it this way?

Thank you.

[An0maly_76]

If it's not a pure sine wave current output, it can over time damage electronics. Sometimes more quickly in some cases. That to me would be the #1 question and concern. If it's not pure sine output, everything else is irrelevant when it comes to electronics. And I wonder if it's possible that this UPS is exposing a defect or weakness in the power supply? Just a thought. I say this because, while it wasn't 220V AC, it was 110V AC, I had a UPS once and did not have this problem. So I kind of wonder if it's more the type of current output rather than the voltage.

[mariushm]

38 minutes ago, DavyJ said:

So, as you mentioned, will the inductors working harder than normal cause a serious hardware problem? As far as I understand, the waves sent by the UPS are more irregular than the waves coming from the mains. For this reason, the first part of the PSU is corrected extra by the 5V stand-by circuit, which causes the inductors to work harder. In other words, the irregular energy given by the UPS is corrected "albeit the hard way" by the PSU. The resulting sound is also a side effect of this fix.

I hope I understood correctly. 

 

In this case, do I need to switch to a different UPS or does this indicate that the UPS is faulty? Is it okay to use it this way?

Thank you.

It's not a question of working harder than normal .. it's hard to explain .... 

The noise is coil whine, it's vibrations in the coil of wire that forms the inductor, because of fluctuations of power going through it. 

 

The inductor is designed to work at a wide range of frequencies, but it's "optimized" to work within a narrow range of frequencies.  

Think as an analogy like a car engine and it's cylinders - car works between let's say 300rpm and 5000 rpm but may be smoothest between 2000 and 4000 rpm 

 

The 5v stand-by power supply in your computer works like as if it's a car climbing a mountain at a steady speed and your speed is 5 km/s (5v) 

 

The power supply controller maintains the steady 5km/s or 5v by squirting more drops of fuel or less drops of fuel, varying the rpm of the engine, so it constantly monitors the input power, the fuel pressure (the voltage levels) . 

With pure sine wave input, the controller knows the fuel pressure gradually goes up and down some amount, so it can vary the rpm a small amount and keep the speed steady. 

When you have simulated sine wave, the fuel comes in steps ... for a tiny amount of time there may be no fuel at all, then it suddenly jumps to 20% fuel, then 50% fuel, then 70% fuel and 100%, then it goes back down in sudden steps 0 in sudden steps. 

So when the fuel is at 0% the controller suddenly notices there's no fuel at all and notices the car speed slowing down to let's say 4.9 km/h or 4.9v  and as soon as the fuel jumps to 20% the controller wants to make up for it and therefore becomes a bit aggressive and squirts more drops of fuel than normal and increases rpm much higher in order to speed up to 5v km/h or even go a bit higher than 5 km/h ... as it does this the fuel jumps to 50% , then 70% so eventually the controller relaxes again and slows the rpm speed, only to realize that again there's no fuel ... and repeat

 

So instead of steady rpm or let's say 500-520-550-520-500 rpm -... and so on ,  now the engine may work at 500 rpm, 520 rpm, 550 rpm, 800 rpm , 600 rpm, 520rpm, 500, 520...  - that's what you're hearing in the inductor, those sudden bursts of engine going up to 600-800 rpm to recover from the loss of speed because there was no fuel for a brief time. 

The inductor has glue and epoxy or material that's designed to absorb vibrations and whine, but those substances work best at let's say 400-600 rpm  - when the inductor goes to 800 rpm, those substances are not as effective at blocking the noise and that's what you hear.

 

Short ... it's mostly an annoyance, it shouldn't cause a serious hardware problem.  Worst case scenario, the 5v stand-by of the psu would fail, and your PC won't start and you'd have to replace the psu. 

 

The VS series from Corsair is a budget series, where they saved pennies everywhere possible, 

 

 

[DavyJ]

39 minutes ago, mariushm said:

It's not a question of working harder than normal .. it's hard to explain .... 

The noise is coil whine, it's vibrations in the coil of wire that forms the inductor, because of fluctuations of power going through it. 

 

The inductor is designed to work at a wide range of frequencies, but it's "optimized" to work within a narrow range of frequencies.  

Think as an analogy like a car engine and it's cylinders - car works between let's say 300rpm and 5000 rpm but may be smoothest between 2000 and 4000 rpm 

 

The 5v stand-by power supply in your computer works like as if it's a car climbing a mountain at a steady speed and your speed is 5 km/s (5v) 

 

The power supply controller maintains the steady 5km/s or 5v by squirting more drops of fuel or less drops of fuel, varying the rpm of the engine, so it constantly monitors the input power, the fuel pressure (the voltage levels) . 

With pure sine wave input, the controller knows the fuel pressure gradually goes up and down some amount, so it can vary the rpm a small amount and keep the speed steady. 

When you have simulated sine wave, the fuel comes in steps ... for a tiny amount of time there may be no fuel at all, then it suddenly jumps to 20% fuel, then 50% fuel, then 70% fuel and 100%, then it goes back down in sudden steps 0 in sudden steps. 

So when the fuel is at 0% the controller suddenly notices there's no fuel at all and notices the car speed slowing down to let's say 4.9 km/h or 4.9v  and as soon as the fuel jumps to 20% the controller wants to make up for it and therefore becomes a bit aggressive and squirts more drops of fuel than normal and increases rpm much higher in order to speed up to 5v km/h or even go a bit higher than 5 km/h ... as it does this the fuel jumps to 50% , then 70% so eventually the controller relaxes again and slows the rpm speed, only to realize that again there's no fuel ... and repeat

 

So instead of steady rpm or let's say 500-520-550-520-500 rpm -... and so on ,  now the engine may work at 500 rpm, 520 rpm, 550 rpm, 800 rpm , 600 rpm, 520rpm, 500, 520...  - that's what you're hearing in the inductor, those sudden bursts of engine going up to 600-800 rpm to recover from the loss of speed because there was no fuel for a brief time. 

The inductor has glue and epoxy or material that's designed to absorb vibrations and whine, but those substances work best at let's say 400-600 rpm  - when the inductor goes to 800 rpm, those substances are not as effective at blocking the noise and that's what you hear.

 

Short ... it's mostly an annoyance, it shouldn't cause a serious hardware problem.  Worst case scenario, the 5v stand-by of the psu would fail, and your PC won't start and you'd have to replace the psu. 

 

The VS series from Corsair is a budget series, where they saved pennies everywhere possible, 

 

 

Thank you very much for your descriptive and informative explanation. It looks like my UPS is going to overload my PSU. It's like I have nothing to do other than shutting down the computer quickly in case of sudden interruptions.

Thanks again...

[MG_10]

[Deleted]

Edited November 21, 2023 by MG_10
delete

[MG_10]

On 3/7/2022 at 8:06 PM, mariushm said:

It's not a question of working harder than normal .. it's hard to explain .... 

The noise is coil whine, it's vibrations in the coil of wire that forms the inductor, because of fluctuations of power going through it. 

 

The inductor is designed to work at a wide range of frequencies, but it's "optimized" to work within a narrow range of frequencies.  

Think as an analogy like a car engine and it's cylinders - car works between let's say 300rpm and 5000 rpm but may be smoothest between 2000 and 4000 rpm 

 

The 5v stand-by power supply in your computer works like as if it's a car climbing a mountain at a steady speed and your speed is 5 km/s (5v) 

 

The power supply controller maintains the steady 5km/s or 5v by squirting more drops of fuel or less drops of fuel, varying the rpm of the engine, so it constantly monitors the input power, the fuel pressure (the voltage levels) . 

With pure sine wave input, the controller knows the fuel pressure gradually goes up and down some amount, so it can vary the rpm a small amount and keep the speed steady. 

When you have simulated sine wave, the fuel comes in steps ... for a tiny amount of time there may be no fuel at all, then it suddenly jumps to 20% fuel, then 50% fuel, then 70% fuel and 100%, then it goes back down in sudden steps 0 in sudden steps. 

So when the fuel is at 0% the controller suddenly notices there's no fuel at all and notices the car speed slowing down to let's say 4.9 km/h or 4.9v  and as soon as the fuel jumps to 20% the controller wants to make up for it and therefore becomes a bit aggressive and squirts more drops of fuel than normal and increases rpm much higher in order to speed up to 5v km/h or even go a bit higher than 5 km/h ... as it does this the fuel jumps to 50% , then 70% so eventually the controller relaxes again and slows the rpm speed, only to realize that again there's no fuel ... and repeat

 

So instead of steady rpm or let's say 500-520-550-520-500 rpm -... and so on ,  now the engine may work at 500 rpm, 520 rpm, 550 rpm, 800 rpm , 600 rpm, 520rpm, 500, 520...  - that's what you're hearing in the inductor, those sudden bursts of engine going up to 600-800 rpm to recover from the loss of speed because there was no fuel for a brief time. 

The inductor has glue and epoxy or material that's designed to absorb vibrations and whine, but those substances work best at let's say 400-600 rpm  - when the inductor goes to 800 rpm, those substances are not as effective at blocking the noise and that's what you hear.

 

Short ... it's mostly an annoyance, it shouldn't cause a serious hardware problem.  Worst case scenario, the 5v stand-by of the psu would fail, and your PC won't start and you'd have to replace the psu. 

 

The VS series from Corsair is a budget series, where they saved pennies everywhere possible, 

 

 

I'm facing the same situation with a Corsair RM1000x. Should I be worried? Btw power cuts are temporary and doesn't usually last more than 2 minutes.