Another condescending Linux article

[Dat Guy]

1 minute ago, D-reaper said:

Why can't I play my Windows games on Linux through Wine if they already work though?

Why do you want to use Linux to simulate Windows?

[D-reaper]

Just now, whm1974 said:

What is wrong with BASH? Or Lutris, Proton, or Wine?

Exactly. And I don't even have to use the terminal to set up a game with Wine when I use Lutris. It's pretty easy. You just need to know how it works.

[Dat Guy]

1 minute ago, whm1974 said:

What is wrong with BASH?

 

The bash shell, ignoring its dependency hell and its memory footprint for now (at least the zsh is even worse...), is not perfectly POSIX-compliant. That means that using it for scripting will make your scripts less portable than they could be, even if you use #!/bin/sh as the shebang.

 

And even if you don't use scripts too much: For interactive use, it is not better than most of the alternatives.

Also, Shellshock should have been enough reason to never touch the bash with a ten-foot pole ever again.

 

YMMV.

[D-reaper]

4 minutes ago, Dat Guy said:

Why do you want to use Linux to simulate Windows?

Why? Because I don't want to deal with the issues that Windows itself has (ads, bloat, spying and general instabilities through the updates; no I don't want to waste time debloating it). And if what I want to play works, then why not?

[Dat Guy]

Just now, D-reaper said:

Linux itself isn't simulating Windows.

 

I did not say it would. Linux itself is a bad simulation of Minix which is a bad simulation of BSD. We're talking about Wine though. Wine is not Linux-exclusive.

 

1 minute ago, D-reaper said:

the issues that Windows has (ads, bloat, spying and general instabilities through the updates; no I don't want to waste time debloating it)

 

Sounds like Ubuntu to me.

[D-reaper]

5 minutes ago, Dat Guy said:

 

I did not say it would. Linux itself is a bad simulation of Minix which is a bad simulation of BSD. We're talking about Wine though. Wine is not Linux-exclusive.

 

 

Sounds like Ubuntu to me.

There you go then. Wine isn't Linux exclusive.

 

I use a distro called KDE Neon with the Ubuntu base. So far, I haven't had any issues that were paramount where I couldn't use my system at all, or that it kept crashing.

 

That, and my entire household uses KDE Neon too. Daily in fact. It's very stable.

[whm1974]

1 minute ago, Dat Guy said:

 

I did not say it would. Linux itself is a bad simulation of Minix which is a bad simulation of BSD. We're talking about Wine though. Wine is not Linux-exclusive.

Who is using Minix as a daily driver? And Linux is hardly any kind of simulation of Minix to begin with...

[Dat Guy]

2 minutes ago, D-reaper said:

Wine isn't Linux exclusive.

Which leads me back to my question: If you want to run Windows stuff without running Windows, why do you limit yourself by using Linux as the kernel?

 

2 minutes ago, whm1974 said:

Who is using Minix as a daily driver?

Surprisingly few people, despite its good kernel. Seems like good kernels aren't what people want.

 

3 minutes ago, whm1974 said:

Linux is hardly any kind of simulation of Minix

It actually started as one.

[D-reaper]

31 minutes ago, Dat Guy said:

Which leads me back to my question: If you want to run Windows stuff without running Windows, why do you limit yourself by using Linux as the kernel?

Because what I am using now works for my needs and that of my household's. And I don't need Windows as my daily driver to do it either. In fact, after where Windows has gone when 8 and then 10 came, I am glad I don't use Windows anymore. 7 was the last and best version of Windows to me. So there's nothing more to say.

 

And the difference is, I don't feel limited. Now if I was trapped into any Adobe products, then I'd feel limited. But since I was using open source software long before on Windows, I am free as a bird. Perks of being a poor kid I guess.

[whm1974]

45 minutes ago, Dat Guy said:

It actually started as one.

The PhD who wrote Minix considered the Linux Kernel to be Obsolete due to using a Monolithic Kernel of a Nano-Kernel. Among other reasons.

[Dat Guy]

Linux used the Minix file system for quite a few reasons initially.

[RONOTHAN##]

6 hours ago, SnowyRVulpix said:

I don't think there are many people that say it doesn't have issues. But I do think Linux definitely has something for everyone. To say otherwise is gatekeeping.

And I say this as someone that is currently dualbooted into Windows because I can't get FFXIV to run in my copy of Linux right now.

I'm not denying that it's the superior OS, the main reason I can't recommend it is because it lacks dev support for applications that a lot of people need, mainly in gaming. If all your software works on there, switch and you'll love it. If you don't, you'll have to deal with dual booting, and if your experience is anything like mine it'll break within a month. 

 

2 hours ago, D-reaper said:

And gaming isn't as difficult as you make it out to be. Sure, the odd game will not work on Linux. But with Lutris, it makes the game setup rather easy. I have an entire list, which are not native Linux games, that I can choose from in a simple GUI.

 

The big one is multiplayer games, single player stuff is usually fine. That said, for a lot of gamers, multiplayer games are almost exclusively what they use, so while things like Lutris are great, they aren't near perfect, and until they are, Linux gaming isn't ready. 

 

2 hours ago, D-reaper said:

But yeah. The sooner you get a secondary card for VFIO, you'll see that it's much easier to use Linux full time. Because you won't have to keep dual booting between the two. I seriously don't miss dual booting. I like the fact that Windows is just a click away; and that I can keep it isolated from all network activity. Not to mention have snapshots in case Windows gets messed up somehow.

Yeah, VFIO is the best of both worlds, but you still have to spend another $400+ on a GPU to make it so you don't have to reboot every hour to do a different task (depending on your workload).

[finest feck fips]

6 hours ago, SnowyRVulpix said:

I don't think there are many people that say it doesn't have issues. But I do think Linux definitely has something for everyone. To say otherwise is gatekeeping.

How about this:

Linux is not for everyone, but it might be for you. The only way to find out for sure is to try it. (And even if it's not quite right for everything you need to do on your computer, there are many things about it you might enjoy trying.)

[Dat Guy]

Just now, finest feck fips said:

The only way to find out for sure is to try it.

 

Then again, life is short and the list of operating systems you could try is not.

[finest feck fips]

1 minute ago, Dat Guy said:

 

Then again, life is short and the list of operating systems you could try is not.

For desktop and laptop usage, no other free software operating system is yet on par with Linux in terms of hardware support or software selection. And the whole GUI stack on the others that actually are usable is just the same as Linux's but typically not packaged in the same way as the base system. If you know your hardware will work, the major free BSDs seem interesting.

Microkernels are interesting to me, too. But the list of microkernel OSes attempting desktop support is short, and running any of them on real hardware is still mostly a party trick. What is there in that space besides Haiku, Hurd, and Redox?

[Dat Guy]

1 minute ago, finest feck fips said:

no other free software operating system is yet on par with Linux in terms of hardware support or software selection.

 

Which piece of hardware is not supported with other free operating systems?

Which software do you need which you cannot find on other free operating systems?

 

2 minutes ago, finest feck fips said:

What is there in that space besides Haiku, Hurd, and Redox?

 

Plan 9 (9front), but hardware support is... not really great on it.

[finest feck fips]

12 minutes ago, Dat Guy said:

 

Which piece of hardware is not supported with other free operating systems?

Maybe FreeBSD is the best bet here, but GPU support is relatively lacking on NetBSD for example, and wifi support on OpenBSD.

[Dat Guy]

5 minutes ago, finest feck fips said:

Maybe FreeBSD is the best bet here

 

Probably. (But if your WiFi chip is supported, OpenBSD is more reliable.)

 

[D-reaper]

36 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

The big one is multiplayer games, single player stuff is usually fine. That said, for a lot of gamers, multiplayer games are almost exclusively what they use, so while things like Lutris are great, they aren't near perfect, and until they are, Linux gaming isn't ready. 

True. When I game, I don't want to game with anyone online. I'd much rather have that enjoyment with someone who is visiting. Anyway, I think that will be changing very shortly from now with the rise of Steam Deck. If those game companies want to have market share on that platform; which case, for money's sake, I'm betting they would.

37 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

Yeah, VFIO is the best of both worlds, but you still have to spend another $400+ on a GPU to make it so you don't have to reboot every hour to do a different task (depending on your workload).

$400+? I didn't even spend that much on my new card. I got an AMD RX 570 for about $170 or so. And my old Nvidia GTX 750 Ti is used exclusively for my VFIO setup in a Windows KVM; because Nvidia on Linux just sucks after my experiences. Nvidia still has suck support on Linux. I am surprised I dealt with it for over 5 years after getting my first taste of an AMD GPU on Linux. When I have no more use for that Nvidia card, or I upgrade, I am never buying a Nvidia GPU again.

[Arpan05]

16 hours ago, D-reaper said:

Web browsing and emailing? Seriously? Linux can't do that even? Wow. Where have I been these past 6 years on Linux? Where has my entire household been; who uses Linux on a  daily basis too? lol

Haha. ikr.

[Arpan05]

12 hours ago, D-reaper said:

True. When I game, I don't want to game with anyone online. I'd much rather have that enjoyment with someone who is visiting. Anyway, I think that will be changing very shortly from now with the rise of Steam Deck. If those game companies want to have market share on that platform; which case, for money's sake, I'm betting they would.

$400+? I didn't even spend that much on my new card. I got an AMD RX 570 for about $170 or so. And my old Nvidia GTX 750 Ti is used exclusively for my VFIO setup in a Windows KVM; because Nvidia on Linux just sucks after my experiences. Nvidia still has suck support on Linux. I am surprised I dealt with it for over 5 years after getting my first taste of an AMD GPU on Linux. When I have no more use for that Nvidia card, or I upgrade, I am never buying a Nvidia GPU again.

I bought an RX 580 while it was still going for MSRP. Lucky I did because now I can't even buy it. 

 

Speaking of VFIO, @D-reaper, would love to know how your experience/process was. Been meaning to do this for a while. 

[D-reaper]

2 minutes ago, Arpan05 said:

I bought an RX 580 while it was still going for MSRP. Lucky I did because now I can't even buy it. 

 

Speaking of VFIO, @D-reaper, would love to know how your experience/process was. Been meaning to do this for a while. 

Depending on what you use it for, it can work very well. It did take some time setting up; I think setting up Looking Glass and Scream had been the hardest. But once I got it set up the way I wanted it, I've been happy with it. Now Windows is just a click away. I don't do anything super intensive with it. At most, I only use for a couple of older games just for trainers/memory mods. Otherwise, I'd just play the games on Linux too. Plus it's useful to try out different Windows mods from Team OS at near bare metal performance.

 

My brother is in the process of slowly switching to Linux and running Windows in a KVM with GPU pass through on his rig too. Mainly due to anti cheat software being so invasive. So he wants to use Linux as a safeguard. So should Windows get messed up by anti cheat software, it won't bring down his whole system. That, and he has snapshots. So after helping him out, it seems like for him that will work out well.

 

But if you're looking to do 4K gaming at max settings, that's where it could struggle; which neither me nor my brother do.

[joltx]

On 12/5/2021 at 10:48 PM, Arpan05 said:

So i was browsing my google news feed and saw this article that describes how Linux isn't for everyone.

 

 

https://dev.to/developerbishwas/linux-probably-isnt-for-you-388d

 

 

Can't help but feel this was targeted at a specific individual or entity.

 

I started daily driving linux 6 years ago. If i had come across this as a newbie I probably wouldn't have started using it and probably wouldn't have a Linux admin and DevOps role I have now.

 

Yea... I don't understand why we can't admit that some areas need a lot of work to make them ready for the masses. I'm a huge Linux fan but even I have my gripes with Linux on occasion. For instance, the lackluster hardware acceleration in electron applications drives me nuts. And with a channel like LTT pointing these problems out, they might get fixed in the near future. Like that apt bug that was fixed just a few days after the video went live. Believe it or not, I've run into that exact issue myself... As far as I remember that was a few years ago...

[D-reaper]

25 minutes ago, joltx said:

Yea... I don't understand why we can't admit that some areas need a lot of work to make them ready for the masses. I'm a huge Linux fan but even I have my gripes with Linux on occasion. For instance, the lackluster hardware acceleration in electron applications drives me nuts. And with a channel like LTT pointing these problems out, they might get fixed in the near future. Like that apt bug that was fixed just a few days after the video went live. Believe it or not, I've run into that exact issue myself... As far as I remember that was a few years ago...

You mean like with something like Firefox? Yeah, it's there. But the devs just need to enable it by default.

[joltx]

6 minutes ago, D-reaper said:

You mean like with something like Firefox? Yeah, it's there. But the devs just need to enable it by default.

Firefox is actually the only browser which does it pretty well. What I meant was electron applications. Like discord or Teams. They're basically a web app running in a chromium browser. That's why they're rather resource intensive. It's pretty bad tbh... Wayland does improve that, but screen sharing does not yet work with those same applications. That's because wayland uses pipewire and not XSHM/Xcomposite, which were the protocols for screen/window capturing on X11.