10k speaker system- ideas? (Yes, USD!)

[CptnReflex]

34 minutes ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

Probably lol. Like I said, I'm a bit batshit crazy. I'll keep demoing and narrowing down my budget if need be. Right now 10k to me seems to be generous enough that I'm not really constrained, and I can always cut down a bit if that turns to be too far into the realm of diminishing returns. 

Have very little space and that would be jank, right now behind my desk is the windowed portion, however with the heavy curtains It's ok. To the side of the room is kind of an open walkway just like a standard room, so having the desk back that much might be a little wonky, but It might work I suppose. Also would only be able to roll back a few feet in my chair in that position, so midfield would be dead if I did that. 

Nice setup though for $380, I wish I were that brave lol. 

Fair points with the layout, was just tryna throw ideas in case anything stuck haha

 

also ty! I'm a budget audiophile lol I wish Linus would do more scrapyard wars

[geo3]

1 hour ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

Could you provide an explanation on why having speakers on free-standing stands instead of just say, on stands right at the edge of my desk would be so much better? I'm genuinely curious, I can't really figure that one out. Also is there a science behind that 1k cutoff or are you just winging it?

Well the biggest problem is reflections having the speaker that close to a hard surface. That will cause a smearing effect with higher frequencies. If it's off the desk that isn't happening. (Well it kind of is but those reflections are not longer coming your way).  You can actually calculate that effect with some basic geometry and the speed of sound.  

 

For the lower frequencies they will now be radiating into half-space rather than into full-space as if it's a bookshelf it would be designed to. You will get an unnatural hump in the response around the frequencies that are roughly about the wavelength of the width of the desk. It's entirely possible to buy speakers designed to radiate into half-space, but those are almost always in or on wall mounting speakers. 

 

Lastly is resonance. Any high-end system should have speakers mounted on something as acoustically dead as possible (often a speaker stand filled with sand) to prevent resonances coloring the sound. Most desks I've encountered in my life resonate like a MF.  This is doubelly an issue if you intend to have a tube amp or preamp as tubes are microphonic, meaning they pick up vibrations from the environment.  

 

A desktop stand will only do so much to mitigate these issues. 

 

1K is an educated guesstimation to where a system is high end enough that these issues become overtly problematic. The more expensive, and presumably revealing and resolving, a system is the more issues like this will be apparent (compared to the same system but unimpeded)  Your intended configuration is a huge bottle neck the total performance.  It's like you're telling me you want to get an PC with an RTX 3090 ,a 5950X, and 32GB of high speed ultra low latency ram....

....so that you can play CS:GO on your 60Hz 1080p display. 

 

1 hour ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

Got any recs besides GIK? But yeah, cheap, low density foam crap isn't an option, never was. 

Not specifically. GIK is probably a good starting point.

 

I know they're not technically correct but I prefer the "panel of random cubes" style of diffuser for purely aesthetic reasons. And they are definitely better than nothing. If you want to do it right look for fractal shaped diffusers kind of like these http://arqen.com/sound-diffusers/. You will also want some bass traps in the corners. A bookshelf with random height/depth books in it actually works really well to both diffuse and absorb.

 

1 hour ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

Just wondering, have you actually tried those in person (and if so what are your impressions)? DIY is a bit of a tough pill for me to swallow since I won't be able to demo before I buy most likely, so If I blind, I want to be at least relatively confident. Yes, I've seen a few youtube videos and blog posts, but I'm hoping for a little more than that. 

So I have built and own a pair of X-LS Encores and have heard the GR-Research MTM towers a couple times. I've seen a fair number of reviews and individual testimony comparing these to the other options I mentions. And as I understand that they are all in the same ballpark with the small differences I mentioned before. 

 

The Encores sound can be described as a focus on clarity. It's voiced fairly neutrally, nothing is elevated or dipped. The highs are clear and detailed, mids are somewhat rich, but not overly so, and the base while not the most extended, is incredibly fast and detailed. 

 

One advantage of DIY is if you don't like them you can almost certainly sell them off for a profit and then buy something else. For something like my Encores I'd estimate the value the labour I put into assembly and finishing them to be around $300 to $400. So If I wanted I could just tack that on top of the cost of the kit and flip them. 

 

2 hours ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

I won't be able to demo before I buy most likely

You might be surprised: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99243.0 

 

And as a general rule, audiophiles buy, sell and swap gear constantly. Most of us don't land on our endgame system right off the bat. Try before you buy is largely a thing of the past as most hi-fi businesses has moved away from the brick and mortar model. So swapping things around has become the norm. 

[Entropy.]

30 minutes ago, geo3 said:

For the lower frequencies they will now be radiating into half-space rather than into full-space as if it's a bookshelf it would be designed to. You will get an unnatural hump in the response around the frequencies that are roughly about the wavelength of the width of the desk. It's entirely possible to buy speakers designed to radiate into half-space, but those are almost always in or on wall mounting speakers. 

Possible that I could try something like wall mounted, maybe not. I do think though that having stands would somewhat help with this, put some more distance in between the desk and the speakers, I may be able to get them reasonably high (Like 30-45cm depending on speaker), or even higher with something coaxial, say a genelec. Eq/room correction I suppose is also an option but dunno how effective that'll be.

Quote

Lastly is resonance. Any high-end system should have speakers mounted on something as acoustically dead as possible (often a speaker stand filled with sand) to prevent resonances coloring the sound. Most desks I've encountered in my life resonate like a MF.  This is doubelly an issue if you intend to have a tube amp or preamp as tubes are microphonic, meaning they pick up vibrations from the environment.  

Sand-filled stands+decent isolation pads, using a wood butcher block on some solid aluminium stands, so don't think it'd be the worst thing ever but I can probably do more to reduce resonance. 

 

Quote

A desktop stand will only do so much to mitigate these issues. 

Yesn't. I know that a desktop setup isn't ideal, but it's something that I'll be configuring for for at least the somewhat immediate future. Decent chance that when the time arises that I'll switch to something else. Of course I could purchase something more modest until that point, I'd be eating a loss and would get less perofrmance for the time being, but I would have more gear experience... maybe, personally I'd prefer just pursuing the more direct option.

 

This at all change your take, or does it remain the same? Just trying to fill you in more on circumstance in case you were compensating for possibly a worse scenario, shrug. 

 

As for DIY, fair enough. I haven't found much success in either selling my equipment or finding demos, but I'm always looking out.

[JZStudios]

23 hours ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

1. $2500 won't make anything magically happen, you should know that. Pointing a million dollar speaker system backwards in a room entirely made out of glass won't do anything. Speakers with wonk, or even different tuning, tube amps instead of solid state, ect. same thing, just more subtle. If you really mean exactly  what a mixer intends, I would assume you mean that you're saying $2500 would make a setup sound exactly like a mixers setup.. which is just something that isn't true. Also in regards to my room... what, exactly is "woefully unprepared?" I said I was going to treat it, but I have a little glass and stone. I honestly have no clue.

I mean that a lot of producers use that exact model of Yamaha studio monitors, and a relatively inexpensive calibrated mic will get the response done pretty accurately. i.e. the same way a music producers setup is done.

 

There's a lot that goes into proper room treatment other than just buying panels and placing them around. For $10k I recommend you find out if there's actual experts to get the job done, and it won't be cheap. They have to measure the room and surface types, speaker placements, and reflection locations, then if they're any good, make custom panels. The material isn't cheap, and neither is the labor. If you're not willing to do that, tossing curtains over the windows and some random foam panels isn't enough for that kind of system. Also, just typically speaking, the more expensive speakers are for load sensitivity and pressure level output. Which in a room that small is unnecessary, unless you want to blow out your ears. And for that matter, actual heavy blackout theater style curtains are ~$100. And Walmart stuff won't cut it.

23 hours ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

It isn't a living room, don't know where you got that from, or how a movie theatre sound system matters. Also don't get what you intended to do by sending the video, like is it to insult me? (because it looks like it), or is there something else you want to say? I really don't get the point. 

They're more tilted towards home theatre subs for the most part on the lower end, they work for music but I would probably think there's better. Let me revise my statement, my priority isn't about shaking the ground & watching movies, and I beileve that most svs subs are primarily designed to do the afformentioned, with side functionality of being able to be used competently for music. That's at least what I've seen with my experience with their subs. Sealed isn't as much like the ported, but still there.  Before you bring up say, the 3000 micro, yes, I know. But that's a little lower than my pricerange, and is somewhat isolated.

Spare room/den, whatever. Doesn't really matter. $10k on a stereo setup is ludicrous when proper room treatment and a $2500 setup will get you the same result as the mixing engineer. The thing about a properly balanced mixing system is if you input a 1k sine wave, the speaker should produce a 1k sine wave. This holds true for every speaker. THD and all that is effectively complete nonsense as long as it's below like .1%, which even dogshit speakers are. The primary point is, if you buy any decent set of speakers, it should be calibrated, and then it will sound pretty much the same as any other set. The timbre might vary slightly, but I'm honestly doubtful. If you calibrate your speakers in a treated room, you can get them to sound like pretty much any other speaker with a parametric EQ. Which, considering your playing from your PC, is freely available in EqualizerAPO.

 

Those Japanese dudes are spending fortunes on their kit and gear in rooms that clearly aren't designed for it. It's literally wasting money. That's also assuming all the snake oil they're buying is actually true. Which it isn't.

 

No, every calibrated test I've seen of SVS subs had a very flat response across the frequency range from like 20hz to 200hz or something. They're ridiculous. Why you think that makes them bad for music is beyond me. There's no logic behind that. The most important thing for a sub is placement. You're not getting a big sub, or even a small sub, that's hitting 20hz without causing shit to rattle. Again, 50hz is 50hz. If it's too loud, turn it down. The SVS subs should even have the phase on a pot, so placement can be even looser.

 

 

The placement, again, I'd ask actual local professionals if you can. If the price of lumber weren't so astronomically high I'd actually rather suggest you build a dedicated listening room.

 

My only viewpoint is I've taken a disliking to audiophiles because they, for lack of a better term, snort their own farts. They don't actually care about the music, they buy into expensive bullshit, they look down on people with lesser systems, and when presented with actual facts they just cry. And they do shit like buy their own power poles and $100k speakers for their 250sq/ft apartment.

If you want to spend $10k, I can't stop you. All I'm trying to tell you is it would be better to get your room professionally treated, and if you aren't, then $10k on a simple stereo setup is pointless. Actual musicians, mixers, audiologists, electrical engineers, and recording engineers really don't like audiophiles.

 

[JZStudios]

Alright, so I have a buddy who does EE work for sound chips/amps, stuff like that, for these companies. And has his own music studio. It's a long random list of things, but let's go over it;

• SVS subs

1. "Fast" doesn't really mean anything and we're both confused as to what you actually want from a sub.
2. "He doesn't understand that in order to hear how a mix was intended you need a flat response in a treated room that also has a flat response." I'm not finishing the rest of that quote, and fuck you if you think I am.
3. The "cheap" $450 SVS sub has a +/-3db range from 24-260hz. The micro 3000 which was "below your price range" does the same, but in a much smaller package.
4. "It's flat at 90db. It's solid at that gain level. It actually has a pole zero pair right around ~15hz which means they added a high pass filter in there that could be tweaked if desired. It can actually go lower, but they set the -3db point around 25hz to filter off nicely with a -20db per decade roll-off. You can tell there's a pole zero pair at ~15hz because it first rises by 20db per decade and then you can see a little roll-off before the next gain stage kicks in. It's flat within measurement error."
5. "It's super easy to get the circuit flat, but it's a different story to make the product as a whole flat with the box design."
6. The have a ported version, which you don't like for some reason, because having bass that causes things to vibrate is... bad, that goes from 17-260hz, and potentially down to 14hz.
7. Overall, yeah, it's pretty trash, and it's below your budget. He recommended this instead; JBL VRX918SP It's still only $2200 though, so maybe still a bit low end. Pretty sure it won't vibrate your house either. Oh, and he also recommended this for some reason. Might also be below your budget, I don't know.

• Room Setup.

1. "He actually said the glass in his room won't matter."
2. Even with a thick dampening theater style curtain.
3. "He wants to buy shit just to say he has it. Then he will sit in his room and act like he's got such a great listening space and never learn."
4. The sub he recommended "Is for concerts. So therefore it'll sound great in his living room to replicate what mix engineers intended because it's response is so fast you will never hear room reflections because the signals leaving the sub will beat reflections to your ears, therefore cancelling them out." In inverse phase, of course.
5. "The JBL doesn't need any calibration, just plug and play. Put a few potatoes in the ports and you're golden. If it doesn't have ports, you can just drill them and then stuff them with potatoes." The potatoes are a semi-permeable membrane, so it's a balance between ported and sealed.
6. "Solder the volume knob on the JBL up and solder it in place."
7. "It can even be hung from the ceiling for isolation. You can even hang it in front of the windows to sound proof them, then you can skip the curtains. It won't even shake the floor if you put it next to the window."

He then proceeded to explain to me that different subs make sound waves travel faster than others, and that JBL is the fastest. I'm not convinced, but he literally does this stuff for a living. I don't argue with him.

 

He also said tubes 100% replicate audio signals, so you should get one of those too.

[Entropy.]

2 hours ago, JZStudios said:

 

1. "Fast" doesn't really mean anything and we're both confused as to what you actually want from a sub

Decay.

Quote

1. "He doesn't understand that in order to hear how a mix was intended you need a flat response in a treated room that also has a flat response." I'm not finishing the rest of that quote, and fuck you if you think I am.

No clue what you're saying. My closest guess is that's your interpretation of me saying "$2500 doesn't guarentee anything?"

 

Quote

1. The "cheap" $450 SVS sub has a +/-3db range from 24-260hz. The micro 3000 which was "below your price range" does the same, but in a much smaller package.
2. "It's flat at 90db. It's solid at that gain level. It actually has a pole zero pair right around ~15hz which means they added a high pass filter in there that could be tweaked if desired. It can actually go lower, but they set the -3db point around 25hz to filter off nicely with a -20db per decade roll-off. You can tell there's a pole zero pair at ~15hz because it first rises by 20db per decade and then you can see a little roll-off before the next gain stage kicks in. It's flat within measurement error."
3. "It's super easy to get the circuit flat, but it's a different story to make the product as a whole flat with the box design."
4. The have a ported version, which you don't like for some reason, because having bass that causes things to vibrate is... bad, that goes from 17-260hz, and potentially down to 14hz.

Good information but not quite what I was talking about.

Quote

1. Overall, yeah, it's pretty trash, and it's below your budget. He recommended this instead; JBL VRX918SP It's still only $2200 though, so maybe still a bit low end. Pretty sure it won't vibrate your house either. Oh, and he also recommended this for some reason. Might also be below your budget, I don't know.

Again... If you're just doing responding to me to prove me wrong and to spite me for whatever reason (because I just.... disagreed  with you?), don't bother with the responses, because again you're just wasting both of our times with stuff like that. 

I'm open to a good-natured discussion and a radically different opininon than mine (provided you have some patience perhaps, and you're again, speaking in good nature), but this is mostly useless.

[JZStudios]

51 minutes ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

Decay.

Quite literally, what the hell does that even mean? Neither he, as a music producer and audio designer nor I know what point a "fast decay" on a b is supposed to do. I could maybe understand if you said fast attack, it fast decay is bizarre.

What you're really looking for is a fast decay time in your room which is why it needs to be treated.

54 minutes ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

No clue what you're saying. My closest guess is that's your interpretation of me saying "$2500 doesn't anything?"

No, that's his response to your dismissal of our suggestions that room treatment is far more important, and your current room is non-conducive to a stereo of more than ~$2500.

1 hour ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

Good information but not quite what I was talking about.

At this point, we have no idea what you want from a sub. I point you towards an excellent sub, you look at the price tag and scoff that it's too cheap. You're not open to opinion, you just want to blow money. It doesn't matter that the sub is flatter than the Mason-Dixon linee at high levels, it just has to be expensive and have, of all things, a fast decay.

1 hour ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

I'm open to a good-natured discussion and a radically different opininon than mine (provided you have some patience perhaps, and you're again, speaking in good nature), but this is mostly useless.

You really don't seem to be. You've made up your mind about spending $10k on a bookshelf stereo and want yes men. My buddy spent from his recollection ~$3000 to tear the walls of his studio out to put in more soundboard and insulation. You saying puing a curtain over the window makes it a none issue is laughable. If you were to do that now you'd have to factor in inflated costs of literally everything, and availability, and then still treat the inside of your room with properly sized and placed panels and deflectors. To treat your room properly it's going to be most of that budget.

 

Even after all of that, your best bet is STILL the Yamaha monitors I initially suggested that are used by actual music producers that you said were a waste of time to recommend.

[Entropy.]

1 hour ago, JZStudios said:

No, that's his response to your dismissal of our suggestions that room treatment is far more important, and your current room is non-conducive to a stereo of more than ~$2500.

 

Don't recall you ever saying that, nor did I dismiss that room treatment wasn't important. Forgot to say that the setup isn't supposed to be permeant. I'm hoping to transition to something in a more optimized environment in the future. Also mentioned previously that I wasn't necessarily looking to completely fill out the budget, and I had It set that high to not constrain myself. My original message talking about that was intended to ward off people from recommending like... $800 systems. You did, and you insist that it must be the best for my money (and that I should spend the majority of my budget on room treatment), which I don't really get. Any way you can further back that up?

Quote

At this point, we have no idea what you want from a sub. I point you towards an excellent sub, you look at the price tag and scoff that it's too cheap. You're not open to opinion, you just want to blow money. It doesn't matter that the sub is flatter than the Mason-Dixon linee at high levels, it just has to be expensive and have, of all things, a fast decay.

Sure, I guess. I tried a good amount of their subs. Not the biggest fan, I think there's better out there. Simple as that!

[Entropy.]

1 hour ago, JZStudios said:

Quite literally, what the hell does that even mean? Neither he, as a music producer and audio designer nor I know what point a "fast decay" on a b is supposed to do. I could maybe understand if you said fast attack, it fast decay is bizarre.

What you're really looking for is a fast decay time in your room which is why it needs to be treated.

No, that's his response to your dismissal of our suggestions that room treatment is far more important, and your current room is non-conducive to a stereo of more than ~$2500.

At this point, we have no idea what you want from a sub. I point you towards an excellent sub, you look at the price tag and scoff that it's too cheap. You're not open to opinion, you just want to blow money. It doesn't matter that the sub is flatter than the Mason-Dixon linee at high levels, it just has to be expensive and have, of all things, a fast decay.

You really don't seem to be. You've made up your mind about spending $10k on a bookshelf stereo and want yes men. My buddy spent from his recollection ~$3000 to tear the walls of his studio out to put in more soundboard and insulation. You saying puing a curtain over the window makes it a none issue is laughable. If you were to do that now you'd have to factor in inflated costs of literally everything, and availability, and then still treat the inside of your room with properly sized and placed panels and deflectors. To treat your room properly it's going to be most of that budget.

 

Even after all of that, your best bet is STILL the Yamaha monitors I initially suggested that are used by actual music producers that you said were a waste of time to recommend.

And just to be clear, the reason why I'm asking for you to back up your statement more is because what you're saying is fairly novel and isn't something that I've seen much before, or likely will be able to test out, so I'm looking gather as much conclusive evidence, or testimony of sorts I suppose to support it. 

[JZStudios]

3 hours ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

Don't recall you ever saying that, nor did I dismiss that room treatment wasn't important. Forgot to say that the setup isn't supposed to be permeant. I'm hoping to transition to something in a more optimized environment in the future. Also mentioned previously that I wasn't necessarily looking to completely fill out the budget, and I had It set that high to not constrain myself. My original message talking about that was intended to ward off people from recommending like... $800 systems. You did, and you insist that it must be the best for my money (and that I should spend the majority of my budget on room treatment), which I don't really get. Any way you can further back that up?

Sure, I guess. I tried a good amount of their subs. Not the biggest fan, I think there's better out there. Simple as that!

You must've missed the multiple times I said your room was sub-optimal and you should hire a professional team to do the treatment.

If you're moving/making a new room, you need to look for someplace that has good acoustics or hire professionals to help design the room. Otherwise the main argument still stands.

 

At this point I have literally no idea what you want from a sub if a reference speaker isn't good enough for you. Nothing you've said about sub requirements makes sense, and it's evident that you don't know anything about audio.

3 hours ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

And just to be clear, the reason why I'm asking for you to back up your statement more is because what you're saying is fairly novel and isn't something that I've seen much before, or likely will be able to test out, so I'm looking gather as much conclusive evidence, or testimony of sorts I suppose to support it. 

[geo3]

6 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Quite literally, what the hell does that even mean? Neither he, as a music producer and audio designer nor I know what point a "fast decay" on a b is supposed to do. I could maybe understand if you said fast attack, it fast decay is bizarre.

What you're really looking for is a fast decay time in your room which is why it needs to be treated.

Fast decay as in how fast it's waterfall chart  (AKA spectral decay chart) decays down to nothing. This is indicative of how long the driver takes to stop moving after the signal stops.  Fast decaying drivers sound clearer, slow ones sound muddy.  The concept is applicable to any driver not just subs. This is what literally everyone I know means when they call a sub/speaker/driver "fast". I doubt your buddy is a gainfully employed sound engineer if he's not familiar with this concept. Maybe they just call it something else?

[Spuriae]

1 hour ago, JZStudios said:

That's certainly a picture of Sonarworks. Are you trying to say he should get room correction software? The lack of elaboration might incline one to believe you aren't actually trying to help OP.

[King_PIN]

I'm half asleep and just saw this before going to bed but a couple things.  

First for speakers look into HEDD. 

https://hedd.audio/ 

I wish I could afford them but ended up going with lowly Kali IN-8 V2's.  

For music I much prefer a ribbon over a soft or titanium dome.  

Being proper studio monitors gives you that flat right out of the box and let's you adjust to your preferences. 

Others to look at are the Genelec 8050B's and the JBL 705P & 805p, Neumann KH 310 and the JBL HDI series.

 

As for fast and slow subs this was bunked many years ago as no such thing. 

I think from what I quickly read you want a musical sub which means it hits harder and is more focused in the mid to upper bass region then how low it can go like a home theater sub would.  This is why a lot of guys and me included previously not only had subs for 40hz content but subs for mid bass content above 40 hz. 

My home theater subs go to 6hz and are x-over at 60hz to my mains but they are centered on HT no audio.  For strictly audio I would have focused on multiple driver and smaller drivers because they don't need to move as much air. 

As for what sub to get.  Well if you are geared to musicality look for something sealed that emphasizes 40-200hz. 

Even the hardest core guys at Audio Science talk about the sealed SVS subs as being the go to for music.  There's a lot to choose from and I'm sure you know 2 are beter than 1.  

 

That's all I got for now.  You have what looks like a high budget but in reality when you break down everything you are looking for with all the peripherals in DACS, Amps, Preamps it adds up real quick,  

[The Torrent]

I feel like you'll have a better option if you split the budget and spent half of it on making a completely different set up and room for these speakers rather than trying to put super expensive speakers in a space resricted space filled with other objects.

[JZStudios]

11 hours ago, geo3 said:

Fast decay as in how fast it's waterfall chart  (AKA spectral decay chart) decays down to nothing. This is indicative of how long the driver takes to stop moving after the signal stops.  Fast decaying drivers sound clearer, slow ones sound muddy.  The concept is applicable to any driver not just subs. This is what literally everyone I know means when they call a sub/speaker/driver "fast". I doubt your buddy is a gainfully employed sound engineer if he's not familiar with this concept. Maybe they just call it something else?

Fast decay doesn't mean anything on a speaker and waterfall charts are for room decay response. They're literally useless for speakers unless it's measured in a completely silent room with 0 reflections. No one measures "speaker decay."  It's not really something that exists. The only reason a long decay/travel time would be audible is if it wiggles like jelly and you're sending a blip through the signal that stops instantaneously. Which is called a step signal test. Considering no music nor instrument does this is, it's a non-issue. There's an argument that if decay was too short it would sound empty and hollow, but even that doesn't track because the speaker is a vibrating mass being driven by a signal. As long as there's a signal it's not just cutting off and stepping between bits like aliasing.

Semi-ironically for this argument, it's attack that's more important to keep in time and phase, considering the driver has physical mass.
 

Mentioning waterfall plots just reinforces that the room is the biggest key factor. It's the room that makes speakers sound muddy. Every one that mentions "muddiness" also explains it occurs between 200 and 500hz, which is above the sub range anyways. If he sub is "boomy" you're room is fucked up and it doesn't matter what sub you get.

 

Oh, and just from a music standpoint, "fast" never relates to decay because it doesn't make sense. You have a fast attack, then a short decay. I don't know who you are, nor what you do. If you can show me something about the importance of speaker decay that isn't complete bullshit I'll look into it. I tried looking into it and didn't find anything outside of random forum posts and one guy saying it was pseudoscience with no actual data.

11 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

That's certainly a picture of Sonarworks. Are you trying to say he should get room correction software? The lack of elaboration might incline one to believe you aren't actually trying to help OP.

I don't know how many times I'm supposed to explain, nor how in depth I'm supposed to explain to him concepts he's capable of googling. I've said multiple times in every post that room correction and calibration are the most important factors.

He said what I suggested is fairly novel, which A. Isn't true, B. is quickly remedied by a google search, and C. indicates he hasn't actually looked into proper studio environments. It's not secret technology, he's cruising around the audiophile forums where calibration and properly treated rooms are the devils work because it makes every speaker sound the same. As intended.

2 hours ago, King_PIN said:

Being proper studio monitors gives you that flat right out of the box and let's you adjust to your preferences. 

Presuming he calibrates them at minimum.

HEDD doesn't seem to show any frequency response charts either, and considering they have ribbons that go up to 40khz for no reason, I'm betting they're heavy on the highs. They should've put a low pass on it and cut it off at 25khz tops. Unless you're doing crazy specialized stuff like finding upper limits of animal hearing.

Pretty much agreed on the sub thing.

 

2 hours ago, The Torrent said:

I feel like you'll have a better option if you split the budget and spent half of it on making a completely different set up and room for these speakers rather than trying to put super expensive speakers in a space resricted space filled with other objects.

At least half, and that's assuming he has a better space to begin with. Getting a properly treated room and calibrated speakers, you'll be hard pressed to hear a difference between a $600 pair of Yamaha studio monitors and a $10k pair of whatever.

[Entropy.]

2 hours ago, The Torrent said:

I feel like you'll have a better option if you split the budget and spent half of it on making a completely different set up and room for these speakers rather than trying to put super expensive speakers in a space resricted space filled with other objects.

Always an option. The question at least for now would be "where?" Because I have no ideal room currently. Maybe with some re-organization... Definitely something I'm considering, though.

3 hours ago, King_PIN said:

I'm half asleep and just saw this before going to bed but a couple things.  

First for speakers look into HEDD. 

https://hedd.audio/ 

I wish I could afford them but ended up going with lowly Kali IN-8 V2's.  

For music I much prefer a ribbon over a soft or titanium dome.  

Being proper studio monitors gives you that flat right out of the box and let's you adjust to your preferences. 

Others to look at are the Genelec 8050B's and the JBL 705P & 805p, Neumann KH 310 and the JBL HDI series.

Heard that HEDD products are quite similar to adam audio stuff. Do you have any experience with the two? 

[JZStudios]

Just for posterity, here's why "speaker speed/decay" literally makes zero sense.

Look at the ADSR lights going through the motion, and how shit the signal sounds when the decay is low. Which in terms of speakers, means fuck all, because this is a signal and speaker decay doesn't exist.

 

12 hours ago, geo3 said:

I doubt your buddy is a gainfully employed sound engineer if he's not familiar with this concept. Maybe they just call it something else?

They don't call it anything, because it doesn't exist. If you can look at the videos above and tell me speaker decay is still a thing that not only exists, but makes sense, I don't know what to tell you. Even if it did, it's not something you would actively want.

 

What you're failing to attempt to describe is transient response and the settling time of the driver. This would have been less confusing if you knew what you were talking about.

 

You measure transient response with step pulses in a very well controlled room, with a very sensitive and calibrated mic. You could see the overshoot of the signal and the settle time back to zero. The overshoot is distortion of the signal, so better speakers will be quicker to settle.

Except literally no one does this for speakers.

 

My buddy, who's not a gainfully employed sound engineer, does this for op amps he designs. It's also used for shocks in mass spring systems, but no manufacturer does it for speakers. From here on it's his fucking nerd talk.

Quote

"Do this real quick to prove it. Calculate 1/20,000 and tell me what you get. Better yet 1/25hz is 0.04 seconds. So you're trying to tell me that these subs won't settle faster than 40ms!!!? Seriously!? Where's the proof? If that were true they wouldn't be in business.

Even at the upper limit of ~200hz it's still 5ms. If shit can't settle by then something is severely fucked."

 

[Derkoli]

Good lord there is a lot of arguing in this thread.

 

@Brok3n But who cares?If you want a speaker/subwoofer that sounds "fast" you just want a driver with low inertia/low weight. Any decent subwoofer is gonna have a stiff and light driver. SVS, JL Audio, REL, ADAM Audio, Genelec, Vandersteen, KS Digital, ZU Audio, Quested, Neumann, PSI Audio, Velodyne and Rythmik Audio are all good bets for subwoofers.

 

A subwoofer shouldn't really make everything rattle. Isolate the crap out of your loudspeakers. My favourite way to isolate loudspeakers is by using the IsoAcoustic pucks.

 

I can have my Martin Audio subs at full tilt in my listening room and have very little rattling occurring.

 

 

The room is the most important component of a system. I'd rather listen to a 1k system in a properly treated room instead of a 200k system in a crap room.

 

Put 250 dollars of your budget into Sonarworks. Get a calibrated measurement microphone. Get some good speakers, a good subwoofer, a good source, and calibrate them to your preferred target source. I've got my various pairs of monitors set to a flat profile, and my audiophile setup to a totally different target.

 

 

Personally, if I had 10k to get the best sound possible, I'd do this:

 

Two Neumann KH 310 D's for your main L/R loudspeakers. Incredibly accurate, very good transient response (what you call "fast"), plenty plenty loud enough and not too expensive.

 

A Genelec 7360 APM subwoofer. Hits 19Hz at -3dB, plenty of connectivity if you ever wanna go to 5.1 or 7.1, and loud enough.

 

A Solid State Logic 2 interface. Small, measures well and is backed by an extremely competent company, is also just genuinely extremely well made like other SSL kit. The volume also goes to 11.

 

A Sonarworks license. Learn to use the software. I'd also dig through REW's website to scratch up on loudspeaker measurement techniques.

 

A measurement microphone. The MiniDSP UMIK-1 is a very good bet.

 

Cables. Any old power cables will do, and then for signal just 2x 6.35mm TRS 3 pole to XLR 3 pole and 2x XLR to XLR. Just make sure the cables have good shielding, and are kept away from power cables, or cross them at 90 degrees. Cordial make some for about 15 USD each and they're very very good. You don't need expensive cabling.

[Entropy.]

2 minutes ago, Derkoli said:

Good lord there is a lot of arguing in this thread.

A subwoofer shouldn't really make everything rattle. Isolate the crap out of your loudspeakers. My favourite way to isolate loudspeakers is by using the IsoAcoustic pucks.

 

Would you also recommend their dedicated speaker stands, or just the pucks of those? Also, out of curiosity have you tried makeshift options such as washing machine pucks/pads? Have heard that they work nearly as well, not super confident in those claims, though. 

Quote

The room is the most important component of a system. I'd rather listen to a 1k system in a properly treated room instead of a 200k system in a crap room.

 Yip. You have any suggestions for acoustic panels besides GIKacoustics? Gonna be spending a decent chunk of change on treatment

 

Quote

Personally, if I had 10k to get the best sound possible, I'd do this:

Not quite related, but your recs brought me back to when I saw this pic, haha 

[JZStudios]

20 minutes ago, Derkoli said:

A subwoofer shouldn't really make everything rattle. Isolate the crap out of your loudspeakers. My favourite way to isolate loudspeakers is by using the IsoAcoustic pucks.

 

I can have my Martin Audio subs at full tilt in my listening room and have very little rattling occurring.

It starts getting into what else in your room can rattle. Any windows and doors can start to rattle. Going off his current room and anything like lamps, wall art, etc. can start rattling. It doesn't matter what sub. Everything has it's fundamental frequency and it will start vibrating. Just in my bedroom, my closet door starts rattling pretty hard at 40-45hz. I'd have to remove the door to get rid of the rattle. Doesn't matter what sub you use, it's going to start rattling at 40hz.

This feeds back into an untreated room.

28 minutes ago, Derkoli said:

A Genelec 7360 APM subwoofer. Hits 19Hz at -3dB, plenty of connectivity if you ever wanna go to 5.1 or 7.1, and loud enough.

He said he's only doing music, and while I experiment with surround and ambisonic, it's not near prevalent enough to matter nor recommend. Though the albums that do it right are pretty awesome. I'd say the same for movies. For 90% of movies it's not really worth it as a lot of directors don't care much about audio, or they're heavily dialogue based.

 

19 minutes ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

Yip. You have any suggestions for acoustic panels besides GIKacoustics? Gonna be spending a decent chunk of change on treatment

Auralex. But whatever you do isn't going to be cheap, and it's best if possible to rip the walls off and put more isolation and padding in the walls to begin with.

Also, why he get a heart for saying the same thing I've been saying since the beginning with no argument?

[Derkoli]

Just now, Brok3n But who cares? said:

Would you also recommend their dedicated speaker stands, or just the pucks of those? Also, out of curiosity have you tried makeshift options such as washing machine pucks/pads? Have heard that they work nearly as well, not super confident in those claims, though.

I'd recommend any of their stuff. It's all really good. I'd just make sure you don't go for the super big pucks for smaller speakers, as it won't be as effective.

 

I've heard of the washing machine ones, but not tried it personally. I guess if the speakers are heavy, it might work. But I think the washing machine ones would be more centered around damping large swaying movements, not smaller vibrations.

[Derkoli]

1 minute ago, JZStudios said:

He said he's only doing music, and while I experiment with surround and ambisonic, it's not near prevalent enough to matter nor recommend. Though the albums that do it right are pretty awesome. I'd say the same for movies. For 90% of movies it's not really worth it as a lot of directors don't care much about audio, or they're heavily dialogue based.

It's just another minor advantage, and I just mention it as it's a fairly major feature for that particular sub.

 

3 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

It starts getting into what else in your room can rattle. Any windows and doors can start to rattle. Going off his current room and anything like lamps, wall art, etc. can start rattling. It doesn't matter what sub. Everything has it's fundamental frequency and it will start vibrating. Just in my bedroom, my closet door starts rattling pretty hard at 40-45hz. I'd have to remove the door to get rid of the rattle. Doesn't matter what sub you use, it's going to start rattling at 40hz.

This feeds back into an untreated room.

I'm just saying that ideally, stuff shouldn't be rattling.

 

For your closet door, I'd try to stick weights onto the door, and stick the hook side of Velcro onto the door in the 2 corners furthest away from the hinges, if it touches wood there. Should make the resonance frequency a bit lower and hopefully cut down on rattles/vibrations.

[JZStudios]

43 minutes ago, Derkoli said:

For your closet door, I'd try to stick weights onto the door, and stick the hook side of Velcro onto the door in the 2 corners furthest away from the hinges, if it touches wood there. Should make the resonance frequency a bit lower and hopefully cut down on rattles/vibrations.

I could, but considering I don't think I ever noticed it before and I just found out by doing a sine sweep in a mod synth I'm not too bothered by it. It's a bedroom with a cheap setup, not a studio. I'm actually surprised my sub hits 33hz.

[King_PIN]

You guys should see what happens when sub 10hz over 100db is played in a room.  

Forget rattles the house starts to make some real weird sounds and the sensations are absolutely fascinating.   

[King_PIN]

7 hours ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

Always an option. The question at least for now would be "where?" Because I have no ideal room currently. Maybe with some re-organization... Definitely something I'm considering, though.

Heard that HEDD products are quite similar to adam audio stuff. Do you have any experience with the two? 

They are similar but a step above.  Adam seems to have a QC issue.  I'm not sure if it's just their entry level stuff or not. 

Unfortunately where I live I am not lucky enough to be able to hear the good stuff or even the medium stuff.  

I studied for about 6 months of what I was looking for for my desk setup.  

I not only read every forum I could but first hand experiences looking for the same thing I wanted and tried to make the best decision I could to fit my budget.

  

The nice thing about the high end stuff is they usually have something like a 30 day return period to let you try them out.  

 

I've been into DIY for a long time and built one of the most highly regarded floor standers from HT guide.  They were basically very large floor standing monitors.  Just the x-overs were over $1500USD for the 2 speakers.  

I've heard and owned speakers from JBL L112's, JBL 4312, JBL cinema 4675, JBL 4648, Klipsch, QSC, older Yamaha servo Pro audio and even Meyers equipment.

 

I have 3 speakers(L/C/R) in parts sitting in my closets that cost me over $12k just sitting there for the past 4 years because I don't have the room to put them after they are built since I had to move my theater inot my living room from the basement. 

 

Although I do agree everything that has been said about room acoustics and using acoustic panels the reality is that it is a science and has to be done for the most part after speaker placement other than the obvious standard placements.  Proper panels are not just something you buy but are made to diffuse the frequencies you need.  Bass traps are the most overlooked and most notably never mentioned.  I made them in all 4 corners of my room in a space years ago and they go a long way in cleaning up the muddiness of low-mid frequencies that often cause dialogue issues.  

The bass traps below I ended up changing later where I compressed all the insulation to the bottom half with a plywood spacer and then piled the same insulation loosely on top.  It was all faced with 1/4" ply and then reskinned.