Apple's M1 Max Benchmarked in Adobe Premiere Pro

[Video Beagle]

9 minutes ago, hishnash said:

It provides some help yes but it would be better for Proton to go direct to metal rather than to VK and then to metal lots of peromfance is left on the table when you have multiple levels of abstraction. 

According to @Paul Thexton in my Proton thread in general, MoltenVK is made by Valve, like Proton is, so I'd assume they'd build the best effeciences they can into a finished system.

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

According to @Paul Thexton in my Proton thread in general, MoltenVK is made by Valve, like Proton is, so I'd assume they'd build the best effeciences they can into a finished system.

Doesn't sound like it

 

Quote

MoltenVK was first released as a proprietary and commercially licensed product by The Brenwill Workshop on July 27, 2016.^[4]

On July 31, 2017, Khronos announced the formation of the Vulkan Portability Technical Subgroup.^[5]

 

http://brenwill.com/

[Video Beagle]

47 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Doesn't sound like it

My mistakes.. wasn't Paul who said it... it was described as "largely a valve effort" for whatever that means.

 

 

[Paul Thexton]

53 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Doesn't sound like it

 

5 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

it was described as "largely a valve effort" for whatever that means.

In the video posted by @Forbidden Waferin the previous page the MoltenVK section indicates that Valve offered significant sponsorship of the development of MoltenVK, and now CodeWeavers are also sponsoring too.

 

1 hour ago, hishnash said:

It provides some help yes but it would be better for Proton to go direct to metal rather than to VK and then to metal lots of peromfance is left on the table when you have multiple levels of abstraction. 

I do agree that games developers who absolutely want to target macOS as an audience should be doing that.  However, using MoltenVK to add macOS support to a game could be an acceptable / interesting option to developers who otherwise would not be willing to invest the significant engineering resources in to supporting raw Metal in addition to Vulkan/other (which I would imagine would be especially true of indie devs)

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Paul Thexton said:

I do agree that games developers who absolutely want to target macOS as an audience should be doing that.  However, using MoltenVK to add macOS support to a game could be an acceptable / interesting option to developers who otherwise would not be willing to invest the significant engineering resources in to supporting raw Metal in addition to Vulkan/other (which I would imagine would be especially true of indie devs)

Honestly the path towards more Mac OS games is probably through MoltenVK. Least effort implementation that leads to greater userbase to prove the effort for native is worth the investment.

[Kronoton]

26 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Honestly the path towards more Mac OS games is probably through MoltenVK.

 

Either that or Apple buying "proper" games for Arcade.

[Forbidden Wafer]

The question for people developing with Metal instead of Vulkan is why? Why do that? Less info, less samples, less tools, less developers, more work, etc. All of that on a platform that is not afraid of dropping their APIs out of nowhere and for no good reason and leave you behind.

[leadeater]

45 minutes ago, Kronoton said:

 

Either that or Apple buying "proper" games for Arcade.

Well unless they want to spend 100+ mil on a single game then no, that platform would have to become attractive first (profit wise).

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

The question for people developing with Metal instead of Vulkan is why? Why do that? Less info, less samples, less tools, less developers, etc. All of that on a platform that is not afraid of dropping their APIs out of nowhere and for no good reason and leave you behind.

Because Metal is the only supported API

 

Mac OS Graphics API choices:

• Metal
• Metal
• Metal

[Kronoton]

They spent billions on content for TV+ with noone actually paying for it (yet), so everything is possible.

[Forbidden Wafer]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Because Metal is the only supported API

 

Mac OS Graphics API choices:

• Metal
• Metal
• Metal

Yes, but why use Metal directly if MoltenVK exists? If you're only develop for their ecosystem, fine. If you're a cross-platform developer, it's a pretty dumb choice.

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, Kronoton said:

They spent billions on content for TV+ with noone actually paying for it (yet), so everything is possible.

Apple gets their money back, you think Apple does this without major brand sponsorship and money from producers? If you think money loss leader actually happens here then you are mistaken.

 

This also assumes if Apple does want to single hand kind of money alone in to a game that a developer actually wants to release on to that platform anyway, how many AAA studios want to invest the time in to an obscure platform that won't bring them any brand recognition and long term value from that.

 

DLC, skins and two months effort would probably get them more money in a game like FIFA heh.

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Yes, but why use Metal directly if MoltenVK exists? If you're only develop for their ecosystem, fine. If you're a cross-platform developer, it's a pretty dumb choice.

It would make sense when the platform is viable to invest in it that way and you are making a game that you want to take proper advantage of Apple hardware to deliver the most demanding game possible. Like sure that is extreme future state without any guarantee at all but this is pretty similar to trying to argue why use DX12 when Vulkan exists.

[Kronoton]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Apple gets their money back, you think Apple does this without major brand sponsorship and money from producers?

 

And who/why would that be? Most product placements are Apple products so thats not gonna cover the millions even 1 episode of your popular TV show costs.

Producers are either working for Apple or giving Apple exclusive rights to the content, so yes indeed lot of money changing hands here 

 

TV+ is surely smaller than Netflix but otherwise it is the same business model. Only difference one is actually paid for by users.

[leadeater]

Just now, Kronoton said:

And who/why would that be? Most product placements are Apple products so thats not gonna cover the millions even 1 episode of your popular TV show costs.

Ford, GM, Coke, Pepsi, Nike, Adidas... literally any company. 

[Kronoton]

Sure, but thats ct to the $ otherwise Netflix would be free and no commercial on normal TV.....

[Forbidden Wafer]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Like sure that is extreme future state without any guarantee at all but this is pretty similar to trying to argue why use DX12 when Vulkan exists.

It really is a good question. It usually comes down to: hey, Microsoft have dedicated hardware to process the DX12 API, so it it's generally faster on the consoles. Not to mention they usually get new features first (DXR).

[Paul Thexton]

10 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Yes, but why use Metal directly if MoltenVK exists? If you're only develop for their ecosystem, fine. If you're a cross-platform developer, it's a pretty dumb choice.

Purely down to market economies. The first obvious choice is MoltenVK, it opens up a new market place (however large/small) for relatively small cost in engineering/tooling.

 

If that market place suddenly becomes lucrative enough, there will eventually become a discussion of "is it worth supporting Metal directly in addition to Vulkan to give that particular market segment the best possible experience?" - for many that answer may well be no, but only time is going to tell on that.

 

I've absolutely no idea how well the M1 MacBook Air has sold, so I couldn't even begin to guess at what the potential market size would be.

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, Kronoton said:

Sure, but thats ct to the $ otherwise Netflix would be free and no commercial on normal TV.....

Did I say product sponsorship alone pays for the whole thing?

 

Apple charges for Apple TV+, Netflix charges, Amazon Prime charges, Disney+ charges. There is also a lot of content that is on more than one of these.

 

Like come on, at least look up how TV shows get funded before claiming Apple is willing to make a loss on multiple shows, none of the platforms are and when a project fails any future plans get cancelled along with that.

 

Apple having a lot of money is literally the worst reasoning to claim Apple is willing to lose money on projects.

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

I've absolutely no idea how well the M1 MacBook Air has sold, so I couldn't even begin to guess at what the potential market size would be.

Well I can't say the Air alone but M1 device sales were huge.

 

Quote

Thanks to the introduction of Apple Silicon M1, Macs had their greatest Q2 sales ever and reached 6 million shipments in the quarter and 90% Macs are powered by M1 chips.

 

[Kronoton]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Apple charges for Apple TV+

 

In theory only.

In reality pretty much everyone is on the extended, extended and extended again free trial.

 

Also how would Apple (or anybody else) produce show not situated in today's reality?

 

Ford tag on a space cruiser in Foundation? Let the cast in See find a Coke bottle and marvel at it's shape (well has been done before)?

[leadeater]

@Kronoton

Quote

The number of Apple TV Plus users was estimated to rise from 33.6 million users at the end of 2019 to a projected value of 40 million by 2020

Apple is doing just fine in terms of subscription numbers and revenue.

 

So they are over 2 billion per year from user subscriptions. But ok sure ~62% are still on free trials, so 760 mill per year. Seems plenty to me.

[Paul Thexton]

Until last year whenever the topic of gaming and macs came up I took these statements to be true

• If your primary focus for a computer is to play games, don't get a Mac
• If you want/have a mac for specific reasons where the Mac is the best choice to you, but you also want to play lots of games, then you'll also need to buy a gaming PC or Console, or compromise on the Mac otherwise being the best choice for the primary uses
• If you want/have a mac for specific reasons where the Mac is the best choice to you, but you also want to play games sometimes, then you can kind of do that, but only if you have a dGPU/eGPU, and even then your options are really, really limited, and performance isn't all that good

Now, that last bullet point is being completely blown out of the water by the YouTube content being put out by Andrew Tsai and MrMacRight.

 

I think the first two bullet points generally will still hold true, but now is the first time that I think the future may change that, if not for the first one, then definitely for the second

[Kronoton]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

33.6 million users

 

And now look up how many devices eligible for the "free trial" they have sold since TV+ started and you get an idea how many paying subscribers there are.

 

2 billions might sound big but given they amount of content they produced bought in the last 12 months it ain't. I

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, Kronoton said:

 

And now look up how many devices eligible for the "free trial" they have sold since TV+ started and you get an idea how many paying subscribers there are.

 

2 billions might sound big but given they amount of content they produced bought in the last 12 months it ain't. I

I did, see the edit, 62%, and the revenue is still way more than enough to fund original content along with money from producers and sponsors. Can we please stop with the "Companies are willing to lose money" line, no, no they are not.