Current Leakage - What can I do?

[cursebreaker]

I need some advice. I live in Malaysia and standard power is 240V. Somehow, all my 2 pronged cables are causing my electrical appliances to leak current (PS4, TV). My quick fix was always to earth it by running a cable from the metal part of the appliance to the earth port in the wall socket. But how do i do that if I am charging my laptop through the USB type C port? Is there a more permanent fix to this?

[suedseefrucht]

32 minutes ago, cursebreaker said:

I need some advice. I live in Malaysia and standard power is 240V. Somehow, all my 2 pronged cables are causing my electrical appliances to leak current (PS4, TV). My quick fix was always to earth it by running a cable from the metal part of the appliance to the earth port in the wall socket. But how do i do that if I am charging my laptop through the USB type C port? Is there a more permanent fix to this?

I don't really get, what you mean. 

What do yo mean by pronged cables?

And what do you mean by leak current?

 

I live in germany, so for me some things might be different. Your country seems to use this power connector:

 

If one of the smaller pins (L) (240 V) touches your devices case (that's really really bad) and your case is connected to the big pin (Earth / Ground), your Residual Current operated Circuit-Breaker (RCCB) should break your households main power supply. Do you mean that by leak current?

 

 

 

[LWM723]

What exactly do you mean by "leak current"? More details needed.

[seon123]

5 minutes ago, suedseefrucht said:

What do yo mean by pronged cables?

Reread what they wrote. 2 prongs means they have two of thsoe pins.

6 minutes ago, suedseefrucht said:

And what do you mean by leak current?

 

6 minutes ago, LWM723 said:

What exactly do you mean by "leak current"?

Jfc.

Quote

Leakage Current

 

In layman's terms, leakage current is the unwanted transfer of energy from one circuit to another. In power supplies, it is the current flowing from the primary side to the ground or the chassis, which in the majority of cases is connected to the ground.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/evga-supernova-850-g6/2

 

39 minutes ago, cursebreaker said:

Is there a more permanent fix to this?

Use proper cables that have ground, and use outlets that have a grounding pin

[Eigenvektor]

9 minutes ago, suedseefrucht said:

What do yo mean by pronged cables?

I assume they mean two pronged plug, essentially a plug that has no third connector for earth. The third one is just a plastic placeholder.

 

 

[Spotty]

42 minutes ago, cursebreaker said:

Somehow, all my 2 pronged cables are causing my electrical appliances to leak current (PS4, TV).

Use 3 prong cables in a grounded outlet.

[suedseefrucht]

51 minutes ago, cursebreaker said:

(PS4, TV)

 

10 minutes ago, seon123 said:

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/evga-supernova-850-g6/2

If he really means that leakage current, how is it even possible?

A PS4 doesn't have an Earth pin and the case is plastic.

Most TV cases are also plastic.

I dont think, we are talking about the same thing speaking of leakage current.

So cursebreaker, please tell us, how you noticed/measure this leakage current and where does it go?

[Guest]

7 hours ago, cursebreaker said:

But how do i do that if I am charging my laptop through the USB type C port? Is there a more permanent fix to this?

Get a USB type C charger with an earth ground.

 

 

[cursebreaker]

On 8/16/2021 at 10:39 PM, suedseefrucht said:

 

If he really means that leakage current, how is it even possible?

A PS4 doesn't have an Earth pin and the case is plastic.

Most TV cases are also plastic.

I dont think, we are talking about the same thing speaking of leakage current.

So cursebreaker, please tell us, how you noticed/measure this leakage current and where does it go?

I noticed the leakage when i got electrocuted through the HDMI cable that was connected to the PS4. when i removed the PS4 cover and touched the metal part with a test pen, it light up. the cable for the PS4 and TV only has 2 prongs. Live and Neutral. Although the plug has 3 prongs, the earth is plastic and does nothing actually. I was able to solve the problem with the PS4 and TV by running an extra wire from the metal part of the PS4 and TV to the earth part of the outlet on the wall but it doesnt seem to be a permanent solution for the entire house. i've attached some images for reference

[suedseefrucht]

2 minutes ago, cursebreaker said:

I noticed the leakage when i got electrocuted through the HDMI cable that was connected to the PS4

So somewhere in the PS4 there is a really really bad connection from L to GND and to the HDMI connector. So your PS4 needs to get fixed!

 

Connecting the HDMI cable to earth doesn't solve the problem. It will just short the current. So if there is a Residual Current operated Circuit-Breaker (RCCB) in your house, it should shut down all electronic devices in your house. If there is no such thing for your security, this is really dangerous. If there is a high current from L to Earth without anything breaking the connection, your cables and your house can burn down.

[Mojo-Jojo]

This is quite normal. Most appliances aren't designed to be grounded - and indeed only have two prongs. This is especially true for appliances with plastic casings, such as the TV and your PS4.

 

A problem arises when you're touching something grounded, and also something not grounded but powered on. So when you say you got electrocuted by your HDMI cable, you must have been touching something else that was grounded. Otherwise, you wouldn't notice anything, or maybe a slight "buzz".

 

 

4 minutes ago, suedseefrucht said:

So somewhere in the PS4 there is a really really bad connection from L to GND and to the HDMI connector. So your PS4 needs to get fixed!

 

Connecting the HDMI cable to earth doesn't solve the problem. It will just short the current. So if there is a Residual Current operated Circuit-Breaker (RCCB) in your house, it should shut down all electronic devices in your house. If there is no such thing for your security, this is really dangerous. If there is a high current from L to Earth without anything breaking the connection, your cables and your house can burn down.

This is most likely not the case. Most appliances without a proper earth connection, just reference their "GND" to local neutral through capacitors that conduct very little current. The outer casing of HDMI, and basically any connector is referenced to this same GND. The current is definitely not enough to trip the RCD or harm anyone.

[suedseefrucht]

1 hour ago, Mojo-Jojo said:

Most appliances without a proper earth connection, just reference their "GND" to local neutral through capacitors that conduct very little current.

Ah, my bad. That was new to me.
I did some research. They are special Y-capacitors because they have to disconnect L from GND if they break.

They are like 22 nF max. capacity, so there are like 900 kOhms between GND and L at 50 Hz. So there should be less than 0,3 V AC if you touch it with an 1 kOhm body resistance.

 

So the reason why your testing device is glowing is, because there it needs very little current to glow.

And the reason for the buzz is a difference of DC voltage between you and your PS4's GND.

 

So it's nothing bad, there is no risk.

[cursebreaker]

1 hour ago, suedseefrucht said:

It's no permanent solution.

 

 

If this solves the problem, you and other people can seriously die by touching that HDMI cable or L by accident.
If this solves the problem, it means: If you accidentally touch L a current of like 0,24 A will run through your body for seconds, which is about 60 Watts burning your flesh and probably causing you a heart attack.

 

I don't know about your countries standards, but in germany there need to be RCCBs in every household and connecting L to Earth would make it shut down the power in the whole household.

Oh, I'm not connecting L to earth. Instead, I'm discharging the electricity energy from the PS4 or TV to the earth. Usually that's done automatically if you use a 3 pin plug. But the PS4 and TV does not do that although they are using 3 pin plugs (because either the earth pin is actually plastic and does nothing or the cables that plugs into the PS4 and TV is actually 2 cables. Refer my previous image)

[cursebreaker]

On 8/17/2021 at 5:20 AM, jonnyGURU said:

Get a USB type C charger with an earth ground.

 

 

That's one way to fix it. But that only fixes that one peripheral. I'm wondering if there's actually something wrong with my house wiring or it's normal.

[suedseefrucht]

9 minutes ago, cursebreaker said:

Oh, I'm not connecting L to earth. Instead, I'm discharging the electricity energy from the PS4 or TV to the earth

Yeah, I was wrong. I thought, there is a wire inside your PS4 connecting L and HDMI-GND by accident.
Then and only then, you would connect L to Earth by connecting HDMI-GND to Earth.
But there is a capacitor, as Mojo explained, so it's fine.

[Mojo-Jojo]

10 minutes ago, cursebreaker said:

That's one way to fix it. But that only fixes that one peripheral. I'm wondering if there's actually something wrong with my house wiring or it's normal.

The only thing that you could check, is if your neutral is significantly elevated with respect to the GND. If you're comfortable using a multimeter to measure socket voltages, measure the voltage between both prongs and GND. You should see ~240V (live) and ~0V (neutral), but it's not uncommon for voltages to be lifted by upwards of 50V. This is because the neutral is grounded, but usually in a transformer far away. Over distance, voltage differences can be created.

 

In some cases, it might be possible for the incoming neutral to be connected to the local grounding rod, and pull the neutral back to (almost) 0V. This might alleviate what you're noticing, but it's not a guarantee. In any case, elevated neutrals are not a problem per se.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, cursebreaker said:

That's one way to fix it. But that only fixes that one peripheral. I'm wondering if there's actually something wrong with my house wiring or it's normal.

If you have proper Earth ground, you should not feel leakage current.

 

If you're devices aren't grounded, you'll feel the leakage current.

 

If you're using three pin power cords and you still feel leakage current, then your outlets are NOT properly grounded.

 

[cursebreaker]

15 hours ago, jonnyGURU said:

If you have proper Earth ground, you should not feel leakage current.

 

If you're devices aren't grounded, you'll feel the leakage current.

 

If you're using three pin power cords and you still feel leakage current, then your outlets are NOT properly grounded.

 

But if I'm using 2 pin power chords, then it's nomal? coz i dont feel that it should leak even with 2 pins. so does it mean that all 2 pin peripherals are not grounded and will definitely leak current if the body is metal? 

[suedseefrucht]

4 minutes ago, cursebreaker said:

But if I'm using 2 pin power chords, then it's nomal? coz i dont feel that it should leak even with 2 pins. so does it mean that all 2 pin peripherals are not grounded and will definitely leak current if the body is metal? 

What you call leakage current is the following:
The is a capacitor with has an isolation between N and the metal parts, which is good, but not perfect.
So over time, the metal parts will get on the DC level of N, which should be earth level.

If your body is charged relative to N, the charge will discharge, if you touch it.

 

To avoid that, you could make sure, N is on the level of earth, by putting a wire between earth and N in your house's power supply box. An electrician should do that.

[cachethrash]

Fun (or not so fun) fact: "electrocuted" is a word made from the words "electric" (or electricity or electrical or whatever) and "execution," meant specifically to refer to an execution by electricity, death, not just an electric shock which seems to be how it's mostly used nowadays.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, cursebreaker said:

But if I'm using 2 pin power chords, then it's nomal? coz i dont feel that it should leak even with 2 pins. so does it mean that all 2 pin peripherals are not grounded and will definitely leak current if the body is metal? 

Yes. Of course.  These devices are meant to have a ground pin.  If you don't have a ground pin, the leakage current goes to you instead of ground.

 

It's normal for < 3.5mA of current looking for a place to ground (either Earth, or you).

 

It's worse when you're barefoot and/or wet!  I used to go to a swimming pool that had arcade machines just off the deck.  You haven't experienced a tingle until you stick a quarter in an ungrounded Donkey Kong with wet bare feet.  Probably was more than 3.5mA, but that was before the current IEC safety requirements.

 

7 hours ago, suedseefrucht said:

What you call leakage current is the following:
The is a capacitor with has an isolation between N and the metal parts, which is good, but not perfect.
So over time, the metal parts will get on the DC level of N, which should be earth level.

If your body is charged relative to N, the charge will discharge, if you touch it.

That's the how.  The why is that it's done to reduce EMI.

 

 

[cursebreaker]

6 hours ago, suedseefrucht said:

What you call leakage current is the following:
The is a capacitor with has an isolation between N and the metal parts, which is good, but not perfect.
So over time, the metal parts will get on the DC level of N, which should be earth level.

If your body is charged relative to N, the charge will discharge, if you touch it.

 

To avoid that, you could make sure, N is on the level of earth, by putting a wire between earth and N in your house's power supply box. An electrician should do that.

That sounds like a solution. You have an image of how it should look like in the power supply box? it would be easier to show the electrician than to try explaining it to him

[Guest]

7 hours ago, suedseefrucht said:

 

To avoid that, you could make sure, N is on the level of earth, by putting a wire between earth and N in your house's power supply box. An electrician should do that.

 

39 minutes ago, cursebreaker said:

That sounds like a solution. You have an image of how it should look like in the power supply box? it would be easier to show the electrician than to try explaining it to him

If an electrician doesn't understand the old "TN-C Network", he's not an electrician.

 

Also, depending on where you live, this may be illegal.

 

And DO NOT do this yourself at either the appliance or wall.  Because most plugs aren't polarized, you run the risk of tying that ground to hot depending on how you plug it in.

 

[Ricardo Harrow]

On 8/16/2021 at 6:53 PM, cursebreaker said:

I need some advice. I live in Malaysia and standard power is 240V. Somehow, all my 2 pronged cables are causing my electrical appliances to leak current (PS4, TV). My quick fix was always to earth it by running a cable from the metal part of the appliance to the earth port in the wall socket. But how do i do that if I am charging my laptop through the USB type C port? Is there a more permanent fix to this?

Sounds like an earthing issue. I reside in a third world country and I have the exact same issue. Turns out the moronic electrical engineer of the housing project that I reside in didn't bother earthing the building. If you have a three pin outlet anywhere in your house, place two probes of a multimeter in the earth pin and the neutral pin and if there's a voltage reading showing up on your meter, that means your place of residence isn't probably earth'd/grounded.

[suedseefrucht]

14 hours ago, cursebreaker said:

You have an image of how it should look like in the power supply box?

In germany, it looks like this: