High temps custom watercooling loop

[dutchguy]

Hi all,

 

Recently i did a new build with a BQ dark base 900 pro rev 2. 2 alphacool 420mm radiators (1xut60, 1x xt45) ddc pump(from old build) mx supreme waterblock (from old build)

 Specs:

- ryzen 9 5950x 

- 16 gb 3600mhz corsair vengeance

- gigabyte aurorus elite MB

- gtx 1080ti

 

I thought with 2 radiators of that size this build is going to be very silent. But unfortunately i cant get it to the point where it is silent as i want. Also the cpu temps jump alot while doing simple thing. 

 

For example, i boot the pc 50 ish degrees idle. I open a new chome tab and it jumps 15 degrees. Is goes down eventually but first all fans ramp up etc... 

 

Sometimes while starting game like warzone it jumps to 78 degrees. Eventually comming down to 66 degrees.

 

I have the fans in a push-push config. So the front (xt45 rad with 3 x BQ silent wings 3) and top (ut60 with 3 x noctua nf14 p) all intake and the bottom has a single 14mm noctua nf14a for exhaust. Also bottom of the case has open mesh for exhaust. 

 

I have tried changing fan config to push-pull on tha entire case. No realy difference. Also tried push-pull push-pull the radiators with 6x nf12f(3 fot every rad ) but also no effect.

 

Also tried different rpm configs on the 140mm fans, no/little effect.

 

I thought with so much radiator surface this build would be very cool and silent. But i cant figure out why it is getting so hot. 

 

Ambient here is like 21 degrees. 

 

Flow goes from the pump to the block to the front rad to the top rad into the pump. 

 

I suspect maybe the old ddc pump is not up to the task. But i would like to hear your input.

 

[Lord Nicoll]

15 minutes ago, dutchguy said:

snip

Did you change the jet plates in the block (if it uses any) for AMD if it wasn't already set up, I know with the older EK stuff and some other manufacturers, they had different internals for different CPUs, but those won't make a huge difference. My first thought would be the DDC just isn't up to par, though DDC's are strong pumps, I'm a firm D5 user, you just can't beat a D5 for reliability and power. Sure the DDC is nice, but I'll always take a D5 over it. As for the CPU temps, that behaviour is normal, but the idle and loads temps are a little high, I suggest setting some of the voltages in BIOS to manual and getting them as low as possible, some motherboards can sometimes push more voltage than is needed into the chips, the other thing is to touch the radiators, if they're cool to the touch then the water isn't hot, whether that means the flow is poor or the block as at fault (both could be causes). 

[Maestro_4k_]

 I use the cheap $20 cpu block on my 5600x and I can confirm that more than likely if your pump is pushing water at a decent flow rate the quality of the cpu block and its fins are going to effect your "settled" temps. That is, the temps your cpu stabilizes on after the jump on a new workload. I wouldnt worry about D5 vs DDC honestly. On my cheap as block I never have trouble keeping the cpu under 55C BUT......I can never get it below 34C either.

[dutchguy]

11 hours ago, Lord Nicoll said:

Did you change the jet plates in the block (if it uses any) for AMD if it wasn't already set up, I know with the older EK stuff and some other manufacturers, they had different internals for different CPUs, but those won't make a huge difference. My first thought would be the DDC just isn't up to par, though DDC's are strong pumps, I'm a firm D5 user, you just can't beat a D5 for reliability and power. Sure the DDC is nice, but I'll always take a D5 over it. As for the CPU temps, that behaviour is normal, but the idle and loads temps are a little high, I suggest setting some of the voltages in BIOS to manual and getting them as low as possible, some motherboards can sometimes push more voltage than is needed into the chips, the other thing is to touch the radiators, if they're cool to the touch then the water isn't hot, whether that means the flow is poor or the block as at fault (both could be causes). 

Can u point me to some details about changing the voltages ? Is there a goto ?

[Lord Nicoll]

3 hours ago, dutchguy said:

Can u point me to some details about changing the voltages ? Is there a goto ?

I did a quick google search for manual voltage tune but didn't see anything, and I don't know if I have time now to sit through it, but basically it involves setting the voltages from auto to manual, so SOC voltage you might start with 1.05v and work down, or start with 1.05v and find it's unstable. The beginning of tuning it however is to check what auto voltages it is running, usually with something like HWinfo64, if those voltages are high, manually tuning them lower will reduce temps, if they're already fine then it's something else. I have seen bad flow negatively effect CPU temps but usually it doesn't, that was a Xeon 3175X so very powerful. What TIM did you use as well, cheap TIM could effect temps, and what speeds does the CPU boost to? If it's like 5.1GHz for single core loads that'd explain the temps. 

[dutchguy]

1 hour ago, Lord Nicoll said:

I did a quick google search for manual voltage tune but didn't see anything, and I don't know if I have time now to sit through it, but basically it involves setting the voltages from auto to manual, so SOC voltage you might start with 1.05v and work down, or start with 1.05v and find it's unstable. The beginning of tuning it however is to check what auto voltages it is running, usually with something like HWinfo64, if those voltages are high, manually tuning them lower will reduce temps, if they're already fine then it's something else. I have seen bad flow negatively effect CPU temps but usually it doesn't, that was a Xeon 3175X so very powerful. What TIM did you use as well, cheap TIM could effect temps, and what speeds does the CPU boost to? If it's like 5.1GHz for single core loads that'd explain the temps. 

I used artic silver 5 and no overclock. So the cpu boosts to its maximum default boost clock of 4.9ghz. Will look into the voltages  but after keeping my eye on it today i see it frequently goes to +- 1.45v and moves down again. 

[airborne spoon]

Check you mount. like pull off the waterblock off the CPU and inspect it. I had a brand new bitspower block that was giving me a super shitty mount and it was pretty warm so i lapped it and bam nice clean mount and great temps. 

On another build i was getting shit temps but it was on a good and previously lapped block so i lapped the CPU and sure as shit it was all wonkey. I dono what it is about me but i always seem to get the uneven crap. So now i always lap my coolers and inspect the mount before i even bother to put the whole computer together.

[dutchguy]

1 hour ago, airborne spoon said:

Check you mount. like pull off the waterblock off the CPU and inspect it. I had a brand new bitspower block that was giving me a super shitty mount and it was pretty warm so i lapped it and bam nice clean mount and great temps. 

On another build i was getting shit temps but it was on a good and previously lapped block so i lapped the CPU and sure as shit it was all wonkey. I dono what it is about me but i always seem to get the uneven crap. So now i always lap my coolers and inspect the mount before i even bother to put the whole computer together.

Thnx, i used this same block on my 3800x with no problems. So i dont suspect it being the cause for what i am seeing right now.

 

Looking into lowering Voltages and changing the pump. Then the block could be next. 

[airborne spoon]

2 hours ago, dutchguy said:

Thnx, i used this same block on my 3800x with no problems. So i dont suspect it being the cause for what i am seeing right now.

 

Looking into lowering Voltages and changing the pump. Then the block could be next. 

like i said i've gotten wonkey unflat CPU's before.

 

Also as long as your pump is moving water at a reasonable rate it should be fine. I have 2 rads and 1 CPU, 1 GPU block running off 1 pump, i have it setup in a dual pump system but the second one is never on it's just there as a backup if one fails or something. Check the pump speed, is it running slow? maybe just adjust the pump speed or have it run full tilt those things are quiet anyway. Also see what your water flow speed looks like, pull the pump inlet and have it go into a bucket, does it flow fast or is it slow? If its slow you may have some blockage in there somewhere, if ya do remove the input line from one component at a time and see what the flow is if it speeds up after removing the line from something then there is your clog.

 

If you're running stock power and stock speeds there is no reason to go in and start messing with all that till you find the culprit of your heat issue.

 

For your fans it seems illogical flow, i suggest having the front blow air in then the back as an exhaust and the top as a exhaust as well. Also on the front fans why not stick them on the front side of the rad to push it into the case? it would clean up the look and give you more room. Same with the top rad put the fans up top and have them pull the air through to exit.

[dutchguy]

-

[dutchguy]

On 2/4/2021 at 10:24 PM, airborne spoon said:

like i said i've gotten wonkey unflat CPU's before.

 

Also as long as your pump is moving water at a reasonable rate it should be fine. I have 2 rads and 1 CPU, 1 GPU block running off 1 pump, i have it setup in a dual pump system but the second one is never on it's just there as a backup if one fails or something. Check the pump speed, is it running slow? maybe just adjust the pump speed or have it run full tilt those things are quiet anyway. Also see what your water flow speed looks like, pull the pump inlet and have it go into a bucket, does it flow fast or is it slow? If its slow you may have some blockage in there somewhere, if ya do remove the input line from one component at a time and see what the flow is if it speeds up after removing the line from something then there is your clog.

 

If you're running stock power and stock speeds there is no reason to go in and start messing with all that till you find the culprit of your heat issue.

 

For your fans it seems illogical flow, i suggest having the front blow air in then the back as an exhaust and the top as a exhaust as well. Also on the front fans why not stick them on the front side of the rad to push it into the case? it would clean up the look and give you more room. Same with the top rad put the fans up top and have them pull the air through to exit.

The front has the bq silent wings 3 (that came with the case) on the outside blowing air inside. on the inside of the front i have 2 noctuas nf12f (from old build) pulling air through the front rad. The top has kinda the same setup. from inside air is pushed by 3 noctuas nf12a through the top rad and pulled by 3 noctuas nf14f to the outside.

[dutchguy]

On 2/3/2021 at 8:48 PM, Lord Nicoll said:

Did you change the jet plates in the block (if it uses any) for AMD if it wasn't already set up, I know with the older EK stuff and some other manufacturers, they had different internals for different CPUs, but those won't make a huge difference. My first thought would be the DDC just isn't up to par, though DDC's are strong pumps, I'm a firm D5 user, you just can't beat a D5 for reliability and power. Sure the DDC is nice, but I'll always take a D5 over it. As for the CPU temps, that behaviour is normal, but the idle and loads temps are a little high, I suggest setting some of the voltages in BIOS to manual and getting them as low as possible, some motherboards can sometimes push more voltage than is needed into the chips, the other thing is to touch the radiators, if they're cool to the touch then the water isn't hot, whether that means the flow is poor or the block as at fault (both could be causes). 

The rads dont get hot at all. looked at it with my infrared thermometer. the rads where ar 27 degrees while the cpu was going ham at like 70 degrees. 

[airborne spoon]

2 hours ago, dutchguy said:

The front has the bq silent wings 3 (that came with the case) on the outside blowing air inside. on the inside of the front i have 2 noctuas nf12f (from old build) pulling air through the front rad. The top has kinda the same setup. from inside air is pushed by 3 noctuas nf12a through the top rad and pulled by 3 noctuas nf14f to the outside.

Based on the picture your front noctua fans are blowing the air from inside the case to the outside. Fans blow in the direction of the back the back of the fan is what the face of your 1 rear fan looks like. So your rear fan is blowing INTO the case. Maybe look at all your fans again because if you're trying to make a push pull config you seem to have the fans blowing towards each other which results in ZERO airflow over the rads.

[Lord Nicoll]

6 hours ago, dutchguy said:

The rads dont get hot at all. looked at it with my infrared thermometer. the rads where ar 27 degrees while the cpu was going ham at like 70 degrees. 

 

3 hours ago, airborne spoon said:

Based on the picture your front noctua fans are blowing the air from inside the case to the outside. Fans blow in the direction of the back the back of the fan is what the face of your 1 rear fan looks like. So your rear fan is blowing INTO the case. Maybe look at all your fans again because if you're trying to make a push pull config you seem to have the fans blowing towards each other which results in ZERO airflow over the rads.

Yeah I agree that your fan set up is not optimal but your rads aren't getting mega hot either but 27°C is what I'd expect for badly optimised fans, I think there is a change there is a small flow flow problem as well as a bad airflow issue, do you have the DDC connected via PWM? If so, pull it out and see how it performs, there is a chance it's running the pump on low RPM if it's connected to PWM

 

[dutchguy]

13 hours ago, Lord Nicoll said:

 

Yeah I agree that your fan set up is not optimal but your rads aren't getting mega hot either but 27°C is what I'd expect for badly optimised fans, I think there is a change there is a small flow flow problem as well as a bad airflow issue, do you have the DDC connected via PWM? If so, pull it out and see how it performs, there is a chance it's running the pump on low RPM if it's connected to PWM

 

Yes it is connected by PWM, but if take that out the pump doesn't get any power. my MB has a port for the pump and in the software i can configure the rpm's and i put it on 80%. that does seem to mitigate some of problem. But the spikes still persist. 

 

I also did the curve optimizer with a negative offset of 30 and that also seems to help a bit.

 

The picture i uploaded is out of date, since im still very much troubleshooting and changing up the flow all the time. to see what gives me beter thermals.  in my response to airborne spoon i will add a new one. 

[dutchguy]

16 hours ago, airborne spoon said:

Based on the picture your front noctua fans are blowing the air from inside the case to the outside. Fans blow in the direction of the back the back of the fan is what the face of your 1 rear fan looks like. So your rear fan is blowing INTO the case. Maybe look at all your fans again because if you're trying to make a push pull config you seem to have the fans blowing towards each other which results in ZERO airflow over the rads.

This is how the airflow goes now. 

 

So 3 fans blow in 2x noctua NF12A and 1x NF14A (blue arrows in the picture)

at the front rad 5 fans (push-pull) (no room for the 6th) 3x noctua NFP14s pull and 2x NF12P push air

at the top rad 6 fans (push-pull) 3x noctua NF12F push and 3x BQ silent wing3 (came with the case) pull air

 

what do you think of this ? 

[dutchguy]

After the changes to flow the build does get cooler when idle and light work so that is better (40 to 55 degree range)   Still see the jumps to 75 - 80 degrees. 

 

Next to water flow not being optimal i think part of my problem is the GPU dumping heat directly on the top rad. 

looking into watercooled 3080 but they are not easy to get your hands on.

[airborne spoon]

8 hours ago, dutchguy said:

This is how the airflow goes now. 

 

So 3 fans blow in 2x noctua NF12A and 1x NF14A (blue arrows in the picture)

at the front rad 5 fans (push-pull) (no room for the 6th) 3x noctua NFP14s pull and 2x NF12P push air

at the top rad 6 fans (push-pull) 3x noctua NF12F push and 3x BQ silent wing3 (came with the case) pull air

 

what do you think of this ? 

 

I don't think you need all those fans. Noctua fans alone are pretty good, only time you need to run a push - pull is when you only have shitty fans so try just having 3 fans per rad.

Also your case seems to have a negative air pressure with the fans in vs out. Your pic says there is fans on the bottom but it doesn't look like there is any holes in the case to allow the air to get into the case. I could be wrong  just going off your pic. Also with 5 fans in the front rad the pump/res is blocking a lot of air, if you only had 3 fans there on the front side blowing in there would be less restrictions.

You should shoot for neutral pressure or positive pressure.

So try making your front fans into a push only config blowing the air into the case make the top ones push OR pull making the air exit the case, rear fan exit so there is no swirling vortex of air or anything. Bottom fans if they really do have any vents to allow air to get into the case leave them blowing air in but they prob aren't necessary.

8 hours ago, dutchguy said:

After the changes to flow the build does get cooler when idle and light work so that is better (40 to 55 degree range)   Still see the jumps to 75 - 80 degrees. 

 

Next to water flow not being optimal i think part of my problem is the GPU dumping heat directly on the top rad. 

looking into watercooled 3080 but they are not easy to get your hands on.

The GPU has fans on top yes however, the air blows down onto the cooler fins which push the air sideways out both sides so some heat goes down to the MB and most heat goes out the opposite way to the open air of the case, where it gets grabbed up by the airflow from the rear fan and the front fans.

[Lord Nicoll]

9 hours ago, dutchguy said:

Yes it is connected by PWM, but if take that out the pump doesn't get any power. my MB has a port for the pump and in the software i can configure the rpm's and i put it on 80%. that does seem to mitigate some of problem. But the spikes still persist. 

 

I also did the curve optimizer with a negative offset of 30 and that also seems to help a bit.

 

The picture i uploaded is out of date, since im still very much troubleshooting and changing up the flow all the time. to see what gives me beter thermals.  in my response to airborne spoon i will add a new one. 

Wait, are you using an SPC-60 from EK, like the small lower power version of the DDC?

Those are only good for single block single radiator set ups, I use them a lot for small loops, but they're complete shit for large loops, that's your problem if you're using an SPC-60

[dutchguy]

19 hours ago, Lord Nicoll said:

Wait, are you using an SPC-60 from EK, like the small lower power version of the DDC?

Those are only good for single block single radiator set ups, I use them a lot for small loops, but they're complete shit for large loops, that's your problem if you're using an SPC-60

No i did check on the original packaging. It is a ddc 3.2 from ek. But only the pwm connector is on it. 

[Lord Nicoll]

9 hours ago, dutchguy said:

No i did check on the original packaging. It is a ddc 3.2 from ek. But only the pwm connector is on it. 

A DDC should have a power connector for a Molex plug on it, it won't do very well with only 1 amp at the most from a normal fan connector, in all the pictures I seen of them, they have two wires going to a molex plug. Anyways if you plan to add the GPU in too, I'd definitely recommend a D5

 

[dutchguy]

9 hours ago, Lord Nicoll said:

A DDC should have a power connector for a Molex plug on it, it won't do very well with only 1 amp at the most from a normal fan connector, in all the pictures I seen of them, they have two wires going to a molex plug. Anyways if you plan to add the GPU in too, I'd definitely recommend a D5

 

yeah, i installed the D5. Temps seem better, less spikes. more consistant, so i'm happy about that :). Still the temp rises to 60-70 when gaming. 

Also did some cleanup. now the vents on the bottom have more room to get air into the case. 

 

The temps still rise so i'm continuing to optimize this build. first thing im going to try now is remove some of the fans like @airborne spoon mentioned. and change the airflow up again  haha
Since the BQ silent wings 3 are airflow fans and not pressure fans like the noctuas NF-F12's i will first try removing the BQ SW3 from the outside top rad and moving the noctuas from the inside to the outside of the top rad. and remove the remaining noctuas from inside.  

Does it matter that the rad is for 140mm fans and that i will use 120mm fans (performance wise) ?

 

Also i'm a bit hesitant to use the front rad to blow air into the case. in the current cooling loop the liquid from cpu block first goes to front rad. so the heated up air will then be pushed into the case and used to cool the top rad which is further down the "cooling chain". doesn't that just heat up the second rad ? or is there enough temp difference in the hot air to cool the second rad ? 

 

Thanks to the D5 pump there is now enough room to fit the asus TUF 3080 OC i managed to get my hands on ^^ (not yet in picture) Still thinking if im going to add it to the loop since im affraid it will explode the cooling liquid temps.... and be stuck with a very loud build... thoughts ? 

[Lord Nicoll]

2 minutes ago, dutchguy said:

snip

If temps are still an issue with a D5 then I'm guessing I was right saying it wasn't any single causing it. 120mm fans won't work on a 140mm radiator as the fan mountings are no where near each other. 
The air will cool both radiators just fine, sure it might cool the front one more and heat the second one up a bit, but that really isn't a big deal, the water temp equalises to an average of the ambient air and won't be an issue. I would think about maybe taking the CPU block apart if it's not a brand new one and checking to see if the fins are clean and free from debris, they can become clogged over time. 70°C still seems a little hot for a 5950X on custom cooling so I'd look at maybe tuning voltages too still, maybe using small negative offsets for the auto voltages or something like that. 

[dutchguy]

2 minutes ago, Lord Nicoll said:

If temps are still an issue with a D5 then I'm guessing I was right saying it wasn't any single causing it. 120mm fans won't work on a 140mm radiator as the fan mountings are no where near each other. 
The air will cool both radiators just fine, sure it might cool the front one more and heat the second one up a bit, but that really isn't a big deal, the water temp equalises to an average of the ambient air and won't be an issue. I would think about maybe taking the CPU block apart if it's not a brand new one and checking to see if the fins are clean and free from debris, they can become clogged over time. 70°C still seems a little hot for a 5950X on custom cooling so I'd look at maybe tuning voltages too still, maybe using small negative offsets for the auto voltages or something like that. 

I bought some 140mm to 120mm converters, so they will fit. 
Also did the curve optimizer with a negative 30 offset (max value) not enirely stable but good enough. 

 

Yes it climbs to 70 but that is while gaming and i suspect that the GPU is putting so much hot air in the case that it is heating up the rads ... liquid and the can cool cpu less.

[Lord Nicoll]

23 minutes ago, dutchguy said:

I bought some 140mm to 120mm converters, so they will fit. 
Also did the curve optimizer with a negative 30 offset (max value) not enirely stable but good enough. 

 

Yes it climbs to 70 but that is while gaming and i suspect that the GPU is putting so much hot air in the case that it is heating up the rads ... liquid and the can cool cpu less.

The GPU might be added at most 3°C to the water temp, that's only 3°C higher CPU temps, it's not too much, ultimately you want as much airflow as possible into the case, ideal that air would be cold, but any airflow is good. You also want slightly positive airpressure whereas you currently have highly negative, all your fans are trying to suck in air that isn't there if you use the case with the side panel on, and all the radiators are sucking in the exhaust air from the GPU currently. Set the front up as an intake and that can breath cooler air and might keep the GPU a bit cooler too, it not being in a negative air enviroment.