Archlinux

[Letgomyleghoe.]

I'm switching over to linux after I build my new computer and I have 1 question

1. Things I should now before switching to Archlinux? I know this is a broad question and more so when talking about archlinux but try your best.

 

[eeeee1]

1 minute ago, Gundar said:

Things I should now before switching to Archlinux?

prolly how to set it up. after that, learn at your own pace. oh yeah also basic console commands like rm, ls, pacman, etc

[Letgomyleghoe.]

1 minute ago, eeeee1 said:

prolly how to set it up. after that, learn at your own pace. oh yeah also basic console commands like rm, ls, pacman, etc

I guess question 2 then 

Best place to learn from? I don't think the most efficient way is trying every possible combination of letters until something happens.

[eeeee1]

1 minute ago, Gundar said:

I guess question 2 then 

Best place to learn from? I don't think the most efficient way is trying every possible combination of letters until something happens.

you are right it isnt. try hitting up the arch linux wiki and subreddit. everyone will be eager to answer your questions

[Guest]

What made you pick Arch as a beginner Linux?

[Letgomyleghoe.]

Just now, Den-Fi said:

What made you pick Arch as a beginner Linux?

Mostly the challenge. I've heard its hard to learn and for some reasons the possibility of me deleting everything on accident is enticing. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Gundar said:

Mostly the challenge. I've heard its hard to learn and for some reasons the possibility of me deleting everything on accident is enticing. 

Oh. Well that's a thing people do I suppose.

Good luck! Just be prepared for the community to expect you to have read even man page and documentation before you ask questions in Arch based forums.

[Nayr438]

1 hour ago, Gundar said:

1. Things I should now before switching to Archlinux? I know this is a broad question and more so when talking about archlinux but try your best.

It has no installer, no default desktop, no default config outside of base unless present in original source tree.

 

Places of interest.

 

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_guide

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Microcode

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/GRUB

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Users_and_groups

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Desktop_environment

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/NetworkManager

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/CUPS

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AMDGPU

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/NVIDIA

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Intel_graphics

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/List_of_applications

https://github.com/Jguer/yay

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/all-repository-fonts/

https://aur.archlinux.org/

 

 

use cfdisk for simplicity when partitioning.

Edited September 27, 2020 by Nayr438
Added link to NetworkManager

[Letgomyleghoe.]

1 minute ago, Nayr438 said:

It has no installer, no default desktop, no default config outside of base unless present in original source tree.

 

Places of interest.

 

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_guide

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Microcode

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/GRUB

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Users_and_groups

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Desktop_environment

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/CUPS

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AMDGPU

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/NVIDIA

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Intel_graphics

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/List_of_applications

https://github.com/Jguer/yay

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/all-repository-fonts/

https://aur.archlinux.org/

 

use cfdisk for simplicity when partitioning.

So this is what @Den-Fi was talking about every piece of documentation interesting... 

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Gundar said:

So this is what @Den-Fi was talking about every piece of documentation interesting... 

Yes. It's not a bad thing at all, you're just expected to be well above hand holding level.

[Radium_Angel]

12 hours ago, Den-Fi said:

you're just expected to be well above hand holding level.

Which is amusing, considering the mantra of Arch which was (at least according to Distrowatch) "KISS" or "Keep It Simple Stupid"

Anyway, gave it a swing and decided it was not for me.

[Guest]

Just now, Radium_Angel said:

Which is amusing, considering the mantra of Arch which was (at least according to Distrowatch) "KISS" or "Keep It Simple Stupid"

Anyway, gave it a swing and decided it was not for me.

Yeah. It's a strange community.
Swings between "everyone should be using it" and "keep out" ideologies depending on what questions you ask lol.

[throttlemeister]

When I learned Linux (kernel 0.9..), dial-up was the only means to connect and paid for by the minute at least here in Europe and the whole World Wide Web wasn't exactly overflowing with Linux information. Yet, the only information you could get out of more experienced users back then was "RTFM!". I will tell you this, it was a steep learning curve but you learned a lot and you never forget. That said, come to think about it I still have nightmare about setting up a certain Teles ISDN internal card on Linux.

 

That said, if starting with Linux I would very much use more beginner or gamer oriented (if you're into that) distros and progress from there if you they are lacking or holding you back somehow. Not Arch or Gentoo. Why torture yourself if you can learn quicker and more enjoyable by using something that is more user-friendly?

[Radium_Angel]

1 hour ago, throttlemeister said:

Not Arch or Gentoo. Why torture yourself if you can learn quicker and more enjoyable by using something that is more user-friendly?

The same old elitist attitude permeates the Linux users world still. The old "It should be hard to use, to keep out the n00bs" mentality that keeps Linux from being more widely adopted.

 

I like debian based nixes because it's relativity straightforward to set up and install and use. OSes shouldn't be user hostile, or have a learning curve as steep as Mount Everest. You want adoption rates? Then KISS and handhold. You wanna be arrogant and condescending and difficult to use? Fine, the history books will not remember your distro.

[throttlemeister]

Yeah, I've never understood that attitude. Personally, I don't work with the OS. It needs to boot the computer and then get out of my way so I can run the software I need to run for the tasks I want to do. It should not be a day job to get your system up and running.

[Koeshi]

5 hours ago, Radium_Angel said:

The same old elitist attitude permeates the Linux users world still.

Or maybe some people just like having their system that way.  There are plenty of noob friendly Linux distros, if some people would rather have a DIY kit because they enjoy that, then why shouldn't they?

[throttlemeister]

2 hours ago, Koeshi said:

Or maybe some people just like having their system that way.  There are plenty of noob friendly Linux distros, if some people would rather have a DIY kit because they enjoy that, then why shouldn't they?

There's nothing wrong with the diy distributions. There is everything wrong with the attitude of some people in the community of certain distributions. Just because they like to diy, doesn't mean they have to be a jerk about it when someone asks a question. 

[Wild Penquin]

Sorry about this long post! Seems I got a bit carried away

On 9/28/2020 at 2:31 PM, Radium_Angel said:

Which is amusing, considering the mantra of Arch which was (at least according to Distrowatch) "KISS" or "Keep It Simple Stupid"

Anyway, gave it a swing and decided it was not for me.

On 9/28/2020 at 2:33 PM, Den-Fi said:

Yeah. It's a strange community.
Swings between "everyone should be using it" and "keep out" ideologies depending on what questions you ask lol.

I think that is based on a misunderstanding̣. The KiSS or Keep it Simple -principle means to have a barebone configuration which can be catered to every users need (be that a server, NAS, a gaming-oriented desktop, computing cluster...). I.e. it does not mean to keep it simple for a desktop-oriented user; or this is how I've understood it (at least in the context of Arch Linux, and generally in any *nix/GNU context). See: User centrality in the Arch Wiki and what it is intended to mean.

 

For the other interpretation ( = simple for user - i.e.: Joe Average wants to browse the Internet, use e-mail, do office work and play games), Arch Linux is definitely not a good choice. It was never intended to be! (see the previous link)

 

I'm not sure if any Linux is good for that. Why I think that way, is because the following:

 

What is FOSS software like compared to closed OSes (and why):

 

There's a whole different philosophy of software development for any software with a central authority compared to any FOSS project. This also applies to OSes, such as Windows or Mac OS (OS X), and Linux(+GNU) distributions. Closed software has a single authority (the company; Microsoft or Apple in the closed OSes) who develops the whole stack (well, strictly speaking Mac OS has a FOSS layer, but still controls the whole stack from bottom to the UI and many applications, which is being shipped to the user in the end).

 

In any Linux distribution, there is no single authority; the distribution is a collection of many different software projects. These include the Linux Kernel, the GNU utilities, different drivers for hardware X (closed vs. FOSS), different Desktop Environments, etc., etc....

 

Hence, despite there's some authority who does define the principles how they make the collection (distribution), no one controls it from the bottom up in a similar way (as in Windows / Mac OS). Depending on the distribution, the goals might be different, and there might even be competing opinions (at least on details) on what the goal should be withing the community. I'm not sure how any Linux distributions goals are set, but it is probably varied (more loose community / some authority defined), and only some target a desktop-oriented user (some examples for Desktop oriented distributions might include Ubuntu -based distributions, and perhaps Manjaro?)

 

There is even the problem of competing standards, which is ... well, a benefit but also a problem and source of frustration. Although this problem is certainly not non-existent in closed OSes, It is much more pronounced in the GNU+Linux software world - I think this xkcd comic illustrates the problem well . This can cause confusion and frustration in many ways, especially to those who are not that deeply involved in internals of computers (and, even if they are!).

 

About the community:

 

(This is not meant as a defense, but as a personal opinion / analysis why the community might seem weird/impolite; it is good to remember the above part, too, as it is closely related).

 

There is no single Arch (or any Linux) community. There are people with different opinions, who (loosely) form a community in that they use some common service, such as the Arch Forums. Some may think that Arch Linux should be adopted by masses, including some average Desktop User who is frustrated about something in Windows (or wants to switch for whatever the reason might be), but many do not think so, but fall into a latter category (my personal view also belongs into this category; I also interpret the Arch Wiki principles as such).

 

It can cause frustration for a replier if the OP (in Arch forum or elsewhere) has not even done some basic homework about the subject (on all sides). I think all replies should remain polite. If a replier can not, it would be better to not post, which can result - in, say, very basic questions in some forum - not getting replies. It is unfortunate, but the potential repliers are using their free time to do (or not to do) so.

 

As a result: the replies/responses are often 1) impolite (often unintentionally, the repliers are humans and might not recognize being frustrated), 2) RTFM-style (a link to a Wiki etc.) 3) just missing.

[Radium_Angel]

3 hours ago, Wild Penquin said:

Keep it Simple -principle

The problem is the KISS philosophy is just that, keeping it simple and straightforward so anyone can use it. That's what KISS means. Barebones is not simple, the two should not be conflated with each other. Arch is misusing the KISS terminology (or Distrowatch is, take your pick) and enticing users who are thinking Simple means easy to use.

 

Anyway, given that Arch and Gentoo are related, should have given it away for me.

[Wild Penquin]

1 hour ago, Radium_Angel said:

The problem is the KISS philosophy is just that, keeping it simple and straightforward so anyone can use it. That's what KISS means. Barebones is not simple, the two should not be conflated with each other. Arch is misusing the KISS terminology (or Distrowatch is, take your pick) and enticing users who are thinking Simple means easy to use.

I was not aware of the KISS acronym / phrases historical context.

 

I think there are contradicting (but both correct, IMHO) interpretations and/or goals for the term/adjective simplicity/simple; it can mean at least in terms of technical simplicity vs. user perspective? Even for the phrase/acronym KISS (given the context it was coined in) I can imagine many examples for either interpretation, even in the U.S. Navy. Wikipedia page does not explain what they actually meant (except that it was coined by an engineer...). But getting OT...

 

As for Arch: to clear out any confusion, I linked to their Wiki. There it is explained without ambiguity. (Arch does list KISS in it's terminology/glossary, but does not use it on the page I've linked.)

1 hour ago, Radium_Angel said:

 

Anyway, given that Arch and Gentoo are related, should have given it away for me.

Arch and Gentoo are not related.

[Radium_Angel]

2 minutes ago, Wild Penquin said:

Arch and Gentoo are not related.

Not what I read, but fair enough.

[throttlemeister]

5 hours ago, Wild Penquin said:

It can cause frustration for a replier if the OP (in Arch forum or elsewhere) has not even done some basic homework about the subject (on all sides). I think all replies should remain polite. If a replier can not, it would be better to not post, which can result - in, say, very basic questions in some forum - not getting replies. It is unfortunate, but the potential repliers are using their free time to do (or not to do) so.

 

As a result: the replies/responses are often 1) impolite (often unintentionally, the repliers are humans and might not recognize being frustrated), 2) RTFM-style (a link to a Wiki etc.) 3) just missing.

While I agree users should do their own investigation and thinking first, instead of defaulting to trying to have someone else to do their thinking for them, if you can't provide a respectful means to answer questions on a forum, go away and don't linger and be an elitist. If you are on a forum long enough, all questions become repetitive and annoying. Deal with it or quit. We all started as n00bs one day and we all had the same or similar questions and were grateful if someone would take the time to help. If you can't bring yourself to return the favor and pay it forward, at the very least don't be a dick about it. Just my opinion. Can be difficult though, and admittingly I have told people to think and do their own school homework instead of asking others to provide them with ready to go answers.

 

KISS for Arch is definitely of the technical category and not of the user experience one. It refers to unmodified upstream sources etc that keeps maintenance simple and ensures packages are working as designed. According to them. To me, it's a non issue as you need to test anyway but you do require less developers. [evil mode] almost like those annoying n00bs asking questions, just slapping packages together as is and call it a distro, without doing actual work yourself and depending on the upstream work of others. [/evil mode] That's tongue in cheek, before anyone goes over the deep end.