amp/dac Amp+dac or amp/dac for AKG 712 pro (first time buyer) ~230€ budget [I made a list w/ all my options]

[leyo96]

Hello,
I just ordered my first pair of real headphones and now I need a Dac and Amp or a dac/amp combo for them. I currently have a bad 25€ amp/dac from amazon for my Sennheiser Momentum.

Ideally my budget would be 200€, I spent 160€ for the headphones, I don't really want to spend way more for the dac and amp. If it's really really worth it I could go up to something like 260€, but not really above that.

Thank you for your help!

 

Ok so these days I carefully made a list with all the amps, dacs amp/dacs that I was suggested, with their price and shipping time. It took me a while 
I hope you can help me having all my options in front of you.
Thank you a lot!

DAC

• Schiit Modi 3:
  • 139€ // currently out of stock in Europe (Italian Schiit dealer)
  • 128€ + probably taxes= ̴ 178€ // 1-week (schiit USA)
• Topping D10:
  • 109€ // 1-2 weeks (Ebay UK) [no optical in]
  • 99€ // 3-4 weeks (Topping Audio EU) [no optical in]
• SMSL m100: 91€ // 1-2 weeks (Ebay Germany)
• Topping E30: 143€ // 20-30 days (Audiophonics.fr)
• Cambridge Audio DacMagic 100: 148€ // 4-5 days (Ebay IT)
• Topping D30: 111€ // 20-30 days (Audiophonics.fr)

AMP

• JDS Labs Atom Amp: 123€ + probably taxes= ̴ 172€ // 5-9 days (JDS Labs)
• Schiit Magni 3+: 146€ // 2-7 working days (Schiit UK)
• Pro-Ject Head Box S: 95€ // 1 week (Ebay IT)
• Topping A50: 184€ // in a week (Audiophonics.fr)

DAC/AMP

• Aune X1s 10th Anniversary Edition: 209€ + possibly taxes= ̴ 286€ // 1 month (AliExpress)
• Topping DX3 pro v2: 220€ // 1 week (Amazon)
• xDuoo XD-05: 217€ // 10-25 days (Banggood)
• FiiO K5PRO: 180€ // 1 week (Amazon)
• iFi ZEN DAC: 150€ // 3-4 weeks (Amazon) [no optical in]
• Fostex HP-A3: 293€ // 2-4 days (Thomann)
• Beresford Caiman SEG: 236€ (I could get a discount) // 5-10 days (Home HiFi)
• Pro-Ject Head Box Digital S2: 245€ // 1-2 weeks (SoloMusicaOnline)
• JDS Labs Objective2+ODAC combo RevB: 291€ + probably taxes= ̴ 391€ // 5-9 days (JDS Labs) [no optical in]
• AudioQuest DragonFly Red: 163€ // 6-11 days (Ebay IT)
• AudioQuest DragonFly Cobalt: 260€ // 6 days (Ebay IT)
• xDuoo TA-01B: 179€ // 3-4 weeks (Ebay USA)
• JDS Labs Element 1: 160€ // 1 week (USED 2 years – Reddit, from Slovakia) [no optical in]
• Creative Sound BlasterX G6: 160€ // 1 week (Amazon)
• LOXJIE D10: 100€ // 1 week (amazon)

DAC+AMP STACK

• JDS Labs OL DAC usb + optical & JDS Labs Atom Amp: 257€ + probably taxes= ̴ 347€ // 5-9 days (JDS Labs)
• Schiit Modi 3 & Schiit Magni 3+:
  • 268€ // currently out of stock in Europe (Italian Schiit dealer)
  • 228€ + probably taxes= ̴ 311€ // 1-week (schiit USA)

RCA CABLES (X2)

• Handmade Van Damme cable w/ Monster connector: 20€ // 1-4 weeks (Ebay UK)

[kevinisbeast707]

Do you need optical in? If not then the Topping d10 is a good dac otherwise. The JDS labs atom is incredible and I would probably go with that, a magni heresy, or an objective 2. I personally use the Schiit modi/magni 3 stack and, while I find that the magni 3 actually has too much power, the dac is amazing. I don't know how pricing would work out for you but you could also always try something from Massdrop. They have their objective 2 amp and grace sdac which is also a very good combination that, at least in the states, is cheaper than a schiit stack. 

[leyo96]

8 minutes ago, kevinisbeast707 said:

Do you need optical in? If not then the Topping d10 is a good dac otherwise. The JDS labs atom is incredible and I would probably go with that, a magni heresy, or an objective 2. I personally use the Schiit modi/magni 3 stack and, while I find that the magni 3 actually has too much power, the dac is amazing. I don't know how pricing would work out for you but you could also always try something from Massdrop. They have their objective 2 amp and grace sdac which is also a very good combination that, at least in the states, is cheaper than a schiit stack. 

I'd like to have optical in if in a future I'll get a console (I play only on pc rn) but I'm not spending way more just for that, if it's a small price different I'd go with the optical option.

The problem with Drop is that you have to wait for the drop shipping for some items (usually like a month after the end of the drop) and then 3-6 weeks to ship to europe. It's way too much time!

The objective 2 amp is in stock only with medium gain, standard gain is out of stock so is a no.

Grace sdac ships June 12 so nope.

So what you suggest is a topping D10 + jds Atom= 109 + 123 (or 172) + 20 = 252€ if lucky or 301€ if unlucky, but the most probable outcome (customs)

 

[kevinisbeast707]

8 hours ago, leyo96 said:

I'd like to have optical in if in a future I'll get a console (I play only on pc rn) but I'm not spending way more just for that, if it's a small price different I'd go with the optical option.

The problem with Drop is that you have to wait for the drop shipping for some items (usually like a month after the end of the drop) and then 3-6 weeks to ship to europe. It's way too much time!

The objective 2 amp is in stock only with medium gain, standard gain is out of stock so is a no.

Grace sdac ships June 12 so nope.

So what you suggest is a topping D10 + jds Atom= 109 + 123 (or 172) + 20 = 252€ if lucky or 301€ if unlucky, but the most probable outcome (customs)

 

Ah that's unfortunate. And yes that is a  pretty good combo. But if you have to have optical in then it might be worth it to go for the d30 and wait or to see if the modi 3 will come back in stock.

[kokakolia]

The forum here is very American. You'll probably end up spending more money (indirectly) on shipping and taxes, just to get your hands on an American product if you follow American recommendations.

 

IMHO, it would definitely help to get recommendations from an Audio shop. The AKG K712 is very popular, so the shops will quickly recommend a good amp combo to go with it. I unfortunately don't have that knowledge.

 

Perhaps you'll find useful help from a Forum of your country? 

[leyo96]

39 minutes ago, kokakolia said:

The forum here is very American. You'll probably end up spending more money (indirectly) on shipping and taxes, just to get your hands on an American product if you follow American recommendations.

 

IMHO, it would definitely help to get recommendations from an Audio shop. The AKG K712 is very popular, so the shops will quickly recommend a good amp combo to go with it. I unfortunately don't have that knowledge.

 

Perhaps you'll find useful help from a Forum of your country? 

We are in quarantine so I can't go out to ask and I don't know any shops.

 

The only website I visit in italian are newspapers lol, all my internet is in english I'll if something in italian exists

Btw I made a list with all the prices so people that don't know pricing in Italy could help me as well

[leyo96]

Edit to my list: Added xDuoo TA-01B and JDS Labs Element 1, clarified that the Topping DX3 pro is v2

[kokakolia]

23 minutes ago, leyo96 said:

We are in quarantine so I can't go out to ask and I don't know any shops.

 

The only website I visit in italian are newspapers lol, all my internet is in english I'll if something in italian exists

Btw I made a list with all the prices so people that don't know pricing in Italy could help me as well

You mentioned SoloMusicaOnline. Maybe give em' a call. 

[leyo96]

Edit 2: Added Creative Sound BlasterX G6 at 160€, I could get a discount on the Beresford Caiman SEG, added a 10€ cheaper Topping D10 option but w/ longer shipping

[kevinisbeast707]

12 hours ago, leyo96 said:

Edit to my list: Added xDuoo TA-01B and JDS Labs Element 1, clarified that the Topping DX3 pro is v2

The element 1 looks like a really good deal but it doesn't have optical input. The topping dx3 pro v2 is a great combo unit as well but what worries me is that they boosted the output impedance from the v1 so it's now 10 ohms. From looking at the phase measurements of the k712, it looks like that may make it sharp.

[leyo96]

1 minute ago, kevinisbeast707 said:

The element 1 looks like a really good deal but it doesn't have optical input. The topping dx3 pro v2 is a great combo unit as well but what worries me is that they boosted the output impedance from the v1 so it's now 10 ohms. From looking at the phase measurements of the k712, it looks like that may make it sharp.

Yeah I think the Element 1 is starting to be my best option. Do you know how much worse it is compared to the element 2? I couldn't find many comparisons

Thanks

[kevinisbeast707]

18 minutes ago, leyo96 said:

Yeah I think the Element 1 is starting to be my best option. Do you know how much worse it is compared to the element 2? I couldn't find many comparisons

Thanks

I haven't been able to find any direct comparisons either. However I was able to find JDS's spec sheet for the original one and if they were as honest back then as they are now then it looks like it will still be competitive today.

 

The element 1: https://blog.jdslabs.com/2015/06/introducing-the-element-by-jds-labs/

 

The element 2: https://jdslabs.com/product/element-ii/

 

There are some good comments on this thread about the v1 vs v2: https://blog.jdslabs.com/2019/11/jds-labs-element-ii-official-release-benchmarks/

[leyo96]

1 minute ago, kevinisbeast707 said:

I haven't been able to find any direct comparisons either. However I was able to find JDS's spec sheet for the original one and if they were as honest back then as they are now then it looks like it will still be competitive today.

 

The element 1: https://blog.jdslabs.com/2015/06/introducing-the-element-by-jds-labs/

 

The element 2: https://jdslabs.com/product/element-ii/

https://blog.jdslabs.com/2019/11/jds-labs-element-ii-official-release-benchmarks/

 

This is the best thing that I've found but I really don't understand a lot of the performance comparison. The Dac between the two, the usb controller it's different and the amp is more powerful on the 2. Other than that I'm too noob to understand

[kevinisbeast707]

Just now, leyo96 said:

https://blog.jdslabs.com/2019/11/jds-labs-element-ii-official-release-benchmarks/

 

This is the best thing that I've found but I really don't understand a lot of the performance comparison. The Dac between the two, the usb controller it's different and the amp is more powerful on the 2. Other than that I'm too noob to understand

So, a very simplified version is that, for the most part, anything that has a signal to noise ratio of over 96db will be good enough to play back everything that a 16 bit music file has to offer. This is "cd quality" and is probably what you should be aiming for. 24 bit is really useful for if you want to use digital volume control like the windows volume to control the output volume since you won't lose data until a very low volume. 

 

Crosstalk is more or less the amount of noise that will leak from one channel of the headphone to the other unintentionally. -67db is a pretty fine number and while a lower db is always preferred, most "cheaper" amps are around this figure. The schiit mangi 3/+/heresy is only "-70db or less".

 

all of the other measurements are over -100db which is perfect and exactly what you're looking for. After 100db it becomes very difficult to discern a difference in distortion and noise artifacts with the types of headphones that you and I are using for listening. After 120db the differences are basically inaudible to the human ear.

 

Output impedance determines both the volume output and the frequency response you'll get out of your headphones. in general lower is better and you want to have something like an 8 to 1 or a 10 to 1 ratio between the impedance of your headhones and the output impedance of your amplifier. So for the k712 at 62 ohms, you'd want an amplifier that has an output impedance of  less than 6-7 ohms. Anything higher than this will change the sound signature of them and make them slightly quieter. One of the benefits of having a higher output impedance is that when you use iems that have a very low impedance and are very sensitive, you can still  use the same amplifier since the relatively higher output impedance of the amplifier will reduce the loudness of the iems. 

 

As for power, I don't know that I've run into any reason to go above 1 watt of power output. I have the Sennheiser hd6xx and with my magni 3 I have never had to take it out of low gain and the volume dial is usually near or below the 8 o'clock position.

[leyo96]

8 hours ago, kevinisbeast707 said:

So, a very simplified version is that, for the most part, anything that has a signal to noise ratio of over 96db will be good enough to play back everything that a 16 bit music file has to offer. This is "cd quality" and is probably what you should be aiming for. 24 bit is really useful for if you want to use digital volume control like the windows volume to control the output volume since you won't lose data until a very low volume. 

 

Crosstalk is more or less the amount of noise that will leak from one channel of the headphone to the other unintentionally. -67db is a pretty fine number and while a lower db is always preferred, most "cheaper" amps are around this figure. The schiit mangi 3/+/heresy is only "-70db or less".

 

all of the other measurements are over -100db which is perfect and exactly what you're looking for. After 100db it becomes very difficult to discern a difference in distortion and noise artifacts with the types of headphones that you and I are using for listening. After 120db the differences are basically inaudible to the human ear.

 

Output impedance determines both the volume output and the frequency response you'll get out of your headphones. in general lower is better and you want to have something like an 8 to 1 or a 10 to 1 ratio between the impedance of your headhones and the output impedance of your amplifier. So for the k712 at 62 ohms, you'd want an amplifier that has an output impedance of  less than 6-7 ohms. Anything higher than this will change the sound signature of them and make them slightly quieter. One of the benefits of having a higher output impedance is that when you use iems that have a very low impedance and are very sensitive, you can still  use the same amplifier since the relatively higher output impedance of the amplifier will reduce the loudness of the iems. 

 

As for power, I don't know that I've run into any reason to go above 1 watt of power output. I have the Sennheiser hd6xx and with my magni 3 I have never had to take it out of low gain and the volume dial is usually near or below the 8 o'clock position.

Thanks for the explanation! It seems like my best option after all, isn't it?

[leyo96]

Edit: added LOXJIE D10 at 100€ from Amazon, found the Magni 3+ at 146€ from schiit UK instead of 178€ from schiit USA

[kevinisbeast707]

On 5/1/2020 at 4:56 AM, leyo96 said:

Thanks for the explanation! It seems like my best option after all, isn't it?

Yeah. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better value overall. Also it's nice only having one single thing on your desk instead of two with cables connecting them.