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macOS vs linux

CodeNova
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so... if macOS is based on unix, and linux is a unix clone, wouldn't macOS and linux be very closely related?

Thoughts, opinions, concerns? please cite your sources, I'm not a mac expert.

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They are similar but MacOS is based on OpenBSD which is different. Their terminals are similar and that's why I like MacOS as things like SSH are built in so no need for PuTTy

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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6 minutes ago, CodeNova said:

so... if macOS is based on unix, and linux is a unix clone, wouldn't macOS and linux be very closely related?

Thoughts, opinions, concerns? please cite your sources, I'm not a mac expert.

When UNIX was getting pretty big, the major players involved came together and wrote a standard known as POSIX so that if software developers wrote an app for one flavor of UNIX, it'd work with another with minimal effort of "porting" Linux more or less follows POSIX while macOS is certified to follow POSIX. In fact, the only way for your OS to be "UNIX" is it needs to be POSIX certified. So for all we know, Linux could be completely compliant, but since it was never submitted for certification, it can't be called UNIX.

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Just now, CodeNova said:

linux is a unix clone

No. Linux is unix-like, it's not a clone. The structure and API are similar but Linux diverges in several ways and being like unix isn't a priority.

1 minute ago, CodeNova said:

wouldn't macOS and linux be very closely related?

In what way? None of the code is (intentionally) shared between the kernels. MacOS is POSIX compliant, Linux isn't (or rather not entirely). The filesystem structure is similar. If you had a use case in mind I could make a more relevant comparison.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

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4 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

They are similar but MacOS is based on OpenBSD which is different. Their terminals are similar and that's why I like MacOS as things like SSH are built in so no need for PuTTy

FreeBSD*

As I wrote on the previous thread

The only common thing between them is the fact they claim to be both Unix-Like

MacOS Mach+BSD kernel + Darwin (which is just this + the FreeBSD userspace) already existed for more than 30 years from NEXTstep

Linux is just a unix-like clone made from scratch decades later, and the code is entirely new and do not share really nothing with MacOS

MacOS has more things in common with the PS4 system software which is based on FreeBSD

The fact is MacOS uses a proprietary GUI toolkit and all GUI programs, which makes impossible the porting of MacOS GUI software to Linux, on the other hand since MacOS has an X server, it's easy to port programs from Linux to MacOS

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32 minutes ago, CodeNova said:

wouldn't macOS and linux be very closely related?

I know I'm not answering your question, but Linux isn't an operating system.

32 minutes ago, CodeNova said:

linux is a unix clone

No, Linux is a Unix-Like operating system. Oops

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2 minutes ago, Geography said:

Linux isn't an operating system.

Quote

Just like Windows XP, Windows 7, Windows 8, and Mac OS X, Linux is an operating system.

source

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4 minutes ago, Geography said:

I know I'm not answering your question, but Linux isn't an operating system.

No, Linux is a Unix-Like operating system.

You just contradicted yourself.

Jeannie

 

As long as anyone is oppressed, no one will be safe and free.

One has to be proactive, not reactive, to ensure the safety of one's data so backup your data! And RAID is NOT a backup!

 

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Just now, Lady Fitzgerald said:

You just contradicted yourself.

no, are quotes broke or something?

image.png.c995bfab146454841313989cc9d0667c.png

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And seriously people, back up your info with something, I wanna learn not start a pissing contest.

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15 minutes ago, CodeNova said:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU/Linux_naming_controversy

13 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

You just contradicted yourself.

My bad, I phrased my statement wrong.

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4 minutes ago, CodeNova said:

And seriously people, back up your info with something, I wanna learn not start a pissing contest.

Since you asked: http://www.unix.org/what_is_unix/single_unix_specification.html

 

Quote

UNIX is now no longer just the operating system product from AT&T (later, Novell), documented by the System V Interface Definition (SVID), controlled and licensed from a single point. Neither is it a collection of slightly different products from different vendors, each extended in slightly different ways. The UNIX specification has been separated from its licensed source-code product, and "UNIX'' has become a single stable specification to be used to develop portable applications that run on systems conforming to the Single UNIX Specification

So I guess from this it's safe to say UNIX doesn't really describe an operating system anymore. Or rather, it describes an operating system, but only the "what it needs to do", not the "how it should do it." Therefore, it doesn't matter what kernel the OS uses is based off of anymore.

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14 minutes ago, CodeNova said:

no, are quotes broke or something?

image.png.c995bfab146454841313989cc9d0667c.png

You did it again. ?

Jeannie

 

As long as anyone is oppressed, no one will be safe and free.

One has to be proactive, not reactive, to ensure the safety of one's data so backup your data! And RAID is NOT a backup!

 

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2 minutes ago, Geography said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU/Linux_naming_controversy

The issue I have with the FSF's side of the argument is... well what makes them more important than any other developer that contributed to many Linux distributions? If they want credit, everyone should get credit.

 

Thus I propose we rename it GNU/MIT/BSD/Apache/PSFL/zlib/(add a few more here)/Linux

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Just now, Mira Yurizaki said:

Thus I propose we rename it GNU/MIT/BSD/Apache/PSFL/zlib/(add a few more here)/Linux

GNU says that its software accounts for more of the "Linux" operating system than Linux itself does. Here's a direct quote: "So if you were going to pick a name for the system based on who wrote the programs in the system, the most appropriate single choice would be “GNU”."

 

I personally think it's unreasonable to mention everyone that technically deserves credit (there are way too many companies), but Linux only accounts for a small part of the operating system and so GNU/Linux is fair IMO.

 

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2 minutes ago, Geography said:

GNU says that its software accounts for more of the "Linux" operating system than Linux itself does. Here's a direct quote: "So if you were going to pick a name for the system based on who wrote the programs in the system, the most appropriate single choice would be “GNU”."

 

I personally think it's unreasonable to mention everyone that technically deserves credit (there are way too many companies), but Linux only accounts for a small part of the operating system and so GNU/Linux is fair IMO.

I understand their argument, but at the same time I feel like it's just Stallman whining about how some kid from Finland managed to get his kernel more popularized than his own.

 

Similar arguments could be made for OSes in general. The OS is just there to support the applications.

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Ok, so this is a bigger mess than I had originally thought. So the mac Darwin kernel is unix compliant?

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16 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

I understand their argument, but at the same time I feel like it's just Stallman whining about how some kid from Finland managed to get his kernel more popularized than his own.

 

Similar arguments could be made for OSes in general. The OS is just there to support the applications.

Stallman Is crazy, I got a pic of him in the Turin University wearing socks with sandals

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Posted (edited)

And by the way Linux is an operating system

 

GNU/Linux is a distribution with Linux and GNU software

 

Stallman is just crazy

Edited by Guest
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2 hours ago, CodeNova said:

Ok, so this is a bigger mess than I had originally thought. So the mac Darwin kernel is unix compliant?

MACOS 10.5+ is certified Unix compliant, all versions of OSX technically are but apple didn't pay the fee to put the branding on OSX <10.5.

 

Linux is a clone of minux, which is a Unix like kernel.

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The exhaustively well documented Linux naming controversy aside, MacOS and Linux do currently bear resemblance to each other due to convergent evolution.  They started off in very different places with opposite intentions and grew to resemble each other, partially through interbreeding.  I know I tend toward long posts, but I promise I'll try to make this brief (and massively oversimplified)

 

GNU/Linux got its start in 1983 when Richard Stallman boldy proclaimed on Usenet that he was sick of signing NDAs and that he was going to make is own Unix-like operating system with blackjack and hookers, and he'd give it away to anyone who could make use of it.  And to the magnificent bastard's credit, he almost pulled it off.  The GNU project he started built the vast majority of a running operating system, including editors, compilers, shells, utilities, file systems, eventually even GUIs, some of which proved superior to their proprietary counterparts.  There was just one thing missing:  A kernel. GNU tried to make their own and abandoned it, looked at licensing some existing ones, turned back to making their own called Hurd.  Work on Hurd was slow going, especially after a socially awkward Finnish student named Linus Torvalds turned up with a Unix-like kernel for IBM compatibles that was fit for purpose.  Finally, in the early 1990's, Stallman's goal was realized:  A free and open source Unix-like operating system that was indeed taken by the world and put to all kinds of fascinating uses.  Of course, the name chosen for the kernel, Linux, proved more popular with users than GNU ever did since it was more pronounceable and sounded more like Unix and Minix etc.  That has led to millions of arguments like the one above in this thread.

 

Either way around, building a Unix-like operating system was the whole point from the start, and by now GNU/Linux is the world's de facto standard Unix-like OS; it's been ported to virtually every architecture that exists and a few that don't and run on everything from crock pots to space ships.

 

MacOS meanwhile started out as yet another attempt by early-80's Apple to come up with a successor to the Apple II.  The Apple III had flopped and the hugely expensive Lisa wasn't selling well.  Some engineers had managed to squeeze enough power into their upcoming low-end budget computer to run similar graphical software to the Lisa in a much more affordable package.  Steve Jobs pushed HARD for the system to be a proprietary, closed system unique to Apple, and basically got his wish.  The Macintosh was the result.  It might have been another smash hit for Apple, too...except IBM had started building the PC out of off-the-shelf hardware and a non-exclusively licensed operating system from Microsoft called DOS.  This made the IBM/Microsoft PC possible to clone, which in turn led it to be THE de facto standard microcomputer architecture to this day.

 

Under increasing friction with the CEO and board of directors at Apple, Steve Jobs left to start his own computer company with blackjack and hookers.  Where Apple had mostly succeeded in the home, primary education, small business and desktop publishing segments, Jobs' new company called NeXT Computer would target higher education, academia, science, R&D and industry.  They built relatively powerful Motorola-based workstations running a Unix operating system (based on Mach and BSD, IIRC).  The resulting NeXTSTEP operating system and it's NeXTCube workstations were technically impressive, introduced some interesting features like the dock, and gained some following in R&D, but weren't particularly successful commercially.  Meanwhile, Apple was getting eaten alive by Microsoft powered PCs.  Apple bought NeXT, basically to get Steve Jobs back.  With a financial partnership with Microsoft, some deft marketing, and blending Apple and NeXT technology together, with many visual elements of MacOS combining with the Unix base and dock of NeXTSTEP.  The ultimate result was OSX, now called MacOS.  Jobs then set out to make Apple devices cool, hip and trendy, and built Apple into the most valuable company in history.

 

Long story short, GNU/Linux started out trying to be Unix-like, while MacOS got there sort of without meaning to.  Along the way, they did intermingle and trade parts.  For example, MacOS includes GNU's Bash shell as standard, and Linux uses Apple's CUPS printing service.  Despite their similarities, they do have very different heritages, intentions and business models.  Linux and Mac are very much not the same OS; their common ancestor is quite distant.

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On 3/7/2019 at 7:05 PM, Sauron said:

No. Linux is unix-like, it's not a clone. The structure and API are similar but Linux diverges in several ways and being like unix isn't a priority.

In what way? None of the code is (intentionally) shared between the kernels. MacOS is POSIX compliant, Linux isn't (or rather not entirely). The filesystem structure is similar. If you had a use case in mind I could make a more relevant comparison.

Unlike Linux, Unixes can have absolutely nothing in common except their POSIX certification. They are not defined by their kernels like Linux. They can be entirely different things. In fact, many Unixes based their kernels off BSD and very few BSD are certified as unix. 

 

People really ought to understand that Unix is not an operating system. Calling it a family of operating system isnt a proper definition either. They are a group of operating systems which have been granted certification and had to recertified to maintain that status. An Unix can suddenly become none Unix and vice versa based on how they evolved and if they still meet POSIX standards. 

 

Very few BSD and Linux bother to certified because they are open source projects. Their systems are meant to be changed and changed rapidly. Certifying goes against their philosophy for one and for a system that updates and changes regularly, certification is also expensive. Plus, they have their own Linux standards for some common functionalities. 

Sudo make me a sandwich 

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2 hours ago, wasab said:

Unlike Linux, Unixes can have absolutely nothing in common except their POSIX certification. They are not defined by their kernels unlike Linux. They can be entirely different things. In fact, many Unixes based their kernels off BSD and very few BSD are certified as unix. 

 

People really ought to understand that Unix is not an operating system. Calling it a family of operating system isnt a proper definition either. They are a group of operating systems which have been granted certification and had to recertified to maintain that status. An Unix can suddenly become none Unix and vice versa based on how they evolved and if they still meet POSIX standards.

Well, at some point there was a UNIX operating system, and nowadays I mainly talk about unix certified systems when I say unix. The BSDs are not all certified but they share enough code and basic design that I would consider them closely related, Darwin included. Linux on the other hand is an entirely separate project, written from scratch and not particularly concerned with ever being unix certified.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

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5 hours ago, Sauron said:

Well, at some point there was a UNIX operating system, and nowadays I mainly talk about unix certified systems when I say unix. The BSDs are not all certified but they share enough code and basic design that I would consider them closely related, Darwin included. Linux on the other hand is an entirely separate project, written from scratch and not particularly concerned with ever being unix certified.

Modern BSD share no code and contains no code from the original AT&T Unix. Their source codes had been entirely replaced since many decades ago, well before apple MacOS and Darwin even existed. By transitivity, Apple MacOS shares absolutely no code as that of the original Unix. 

 

Like I said, Unix evolves to more than just a singular operating system. It is not the softwares, not the kernels, but a single certification and standard that defines Unix as Unix. If Microsoft  wants to make an Unix operating system running off their Windows NT kernel, I am pretty sure they damn well could. 

Sudo make me a sandwich 

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