AMD Responds to: XBox will not use Mantle (Microsoft improving Direct3D to compete)

[ILoveShaders]

Microsoft just released a blog post saying that the upcoming XBox One will not support either Mantle or OpenGL but will use a special version of Direct3D called Direct3D 11.X. This version will be a superset (will have extra funcionality) of Direct3D 11.2 and provide low level access as it will be designed for the XBox One hardware specifically.

 

Furthermore Microsoft mentioned that in the future they will be bringing these improvements to Windows.

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7420/microsoft-comments-on-state-of-direct3d-mantle-support-names-xbox-one-api-direct3d-11x

 

TO this AMD responded by reiterating that the goal of Mantle is to bring console-like API performance to the PC and nothing more, Mantle has NO PLACE on the XBox One as the console already has a low level API.

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7421/amd-expands-on-microsoft-blog-post

 

Personally? I don't believe that Microsoft started improving the performance of Direct 3D because of Mantle, they have already been doing this in the last few years. Direct3D 11.2 calls are more efficient than Direct3D 9.0c calls used to be.

 

The problem with Direct3D (and OpenGL for that matter) is that it's an extra layer of communication between the application and the hardware. When you want to tell the the graphics card to draw something you actually tell DIrect3D (or opengl) to do it for you. This is necesarry because otherwise you would have to write a different version of your code for each graphics card architecture or handle the intermediary layer yourself, that's a lot of extra cost and overhead for the game developers that just shouldn't be there, so we take a performance hit at runtime.

This worsens as the architectures become more different form one another. In the past few interations (starting from 10) Microsoft has made the DirectX standard more strict, so the GPU architectures have to be closer in specifications, I personally think that they are reaching a point where the standard is strict enough that they can trim a lot of fat of DirectX and could probably see Mantle-like performance (hopefully) by DirectX 12 or whatever iteration we will see on Windows 9.

 

 

NOTE: I has been brought to my attention that my first news item was already posted BUT my second one was not. The second one is out of context without the first so I will currently leave it as is.

 

Here is a link to the original thread for the first news item in my post: https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/65675-microsoft-confirms-amd-mantle-not-compatible-with-xbox-one/

 

Again, the news item I am reporting on is the second one.

[M-ursu]

That was not a surprice because microsoft created DX.

[KaareKanin]

Is it bad form to say "called it"?

[MrSuperb]

BUT .... BUT ... 

... MANTLE 

[Hans Christian | Teri]

This is necesarry because otherwise you would have to write a different version of your code for each graphics card architecture or handle the intermediary layer yourself, that's a lot of extra cost and overhead for the game developers

 

And this is exactly why Mantle wont be a big deal. As The Walrus said this doesn't come as a surprise.

[Lord Pantaloons]

And this is exactly why Mantle wont be a big deal. As The Walrus said this doesn't come as a surprise.

^^yep

[xRAGExSounDxRIOTX]

Already Posted:

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/65675-microsoft-confirms-amd-mantle-not-compatible-with-xbox-one/

[brownninja97]

well fuck microsoft, this means less dev teams will find mantle appealing, i hope the xbone sucks in sales so more dev teams get mantle, i might be the first pc sony fanboy

[ivhyn]

well fuck microsoft, this means less dev teams will find mantle appealing, i hope the xbone sucks in sales so more dev teams get mantle, i might be the first pc sony fanboy

Sony wouldn't do that any different. They got their own low level API but nothing for PC, we won't see any support from them either.

[ILoveShaders]

Already Posted:

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/65675-microsoft-confirms-amd-mantle-not-compatible-with-xbox-one/

 

I also have a second news item, the AMD response, don't consider the first news item as my contribution then, consider just the second.

 

 

well fuck microsoft, this means less dev teams will find mantle appealing, i hope the xbone sucks in sales so more dev teams get mantle, i might be the first pc sony fanboy

 

 

1) Sony didn't say they are allowing Mantle, you are being premature. I think they should because finding information on developing for the PlayStation is hard for an indie dev, this will help a lot.

2) AMD said that Mantle is done so the PC has a console-like API, the PS4 already has a console-like API so there's no need for Mantle (same as XBox One).

3) If you are just starting now, you are definitely not the first!

[JAKEBAB]

awesome news for nvidia users i really do hope microsoft sticks to what they say and actually does do something about direct x

[Yoinkerman]

ill believe directx isn't a bloated piece of garbage when they optimize flash and java.

[Gunzkewl]

BUT .... BUT ... 

... MANTLE 

Only liked your comment, because you used a Cat.. 

[Stonep11]

TO this AMD responded by reiterating that the goal of Mantle is to bring console-like API performance to the PC and nothing more, Mantle has NO PLACE on the XBox One as the console already has a low level API.

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7421/amd-expands-on-microsoft-blog-post

I kind of thought the big draw of Mantle was a unified console/PC API that made it so devs didn't need to port games from one to the other?

[Tigerbomb8]

Already Posted:

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/65675-microsoft-confirms-amd-mantle-not-compatible-with-xbox-one/

this is about AMD response to microsoft

[ILoveShaders]

I kind of thought the big draw of Mantle was a unified console/PC API that made it so devs didn't need to port games from one to the other?

 

I thought so too, but apparently they are sending mixed messages, I'm starting to fear that AMD won't follow-through with it and Mantle will be about as used as NVAPI.

[beebskadoo]

Mantle will only take off if Nvidia gets on board with it. I don't think Windows gaming is going anywhere but Linux support is a MUST if SteamOS is going to be in any way popular. It could do well but it could be an absolute flop and might take a few years for us to really see a mass implementation of Mantle. 

Keep in mind, though AMD is claiming it's an easier API to code for and it cuts time and etc. there will still be a learning curve when it comes to development and this is it's Achilles heel.

The promise of better hardware performance is a good thing but if there is no incentive for the developers to code for Mantle as well as Direct3D than it's going to be a losing battle for AMD and Mantle.

It's going to take a lot of collaboration and a lot more persuasion for this to really take off and go somewhere. I hope the best for AMD but I really don't see this doing as well as they hope, but  I could be and hope to be wrong in my prediction. I guess time will tell

[beebskadoo]

I thought so too, but apparently they are sending mixed messages, I'm starting to fear that AMD won't follow-through with it and Mantle will be about as used as NVAPI.

NVAPI isn't anything like Mantle.

[bhabroo]

A

[KaareKanin]

I kind of thought the big draw of Mantle was a unified console/PC API that made it so devs didn't need to port games from one to the other?

Then you thought wrong :-p the goal was to bring low level to PC, like what consoles have, not the same language as the upcoming consoles will have. A lot of people seems to have made this mistake, and that fact seems like a testament to the massive hype mantle has enjoyed.

[Ookami]

 

Microsoft improving Direct3D to compete

Statement is false. "Microsoft" and "improving" DO NOT match...

 

If Mantle will live to its expectations then ill gladly say "Microsoft go home youre drunk"...

[Stonep11]

Then you thought wrong :-p the goal was to bring low level to PC, like what consoles have, not the same language as the upcoming consoles will have. A lot of people seems to have made this mistake, and that fact seems like a testament to the massive hype mantle has enjoyed.

That's a good point, I think a lot of us have been expecting to much from this new API. I know I have seen people say they could get 9x performance when referencing the more call per clock from the GPU that they highlighted in the reveal. I know my expectations have significantly dropped for this API.

[ACatWithThumbs]

Statement is false. "Microsoft" and "improving" DO NOT match...

 

If Mantle will live to its expectations then ill gladly say "Microsoft go home youre drunk"...

Thats not why it's fales, it's fales because they have there own Low Level API since the first Xbox and its way more advanced the mantle ever could be.

Because Mantle has still to run on all GCN GPUs, but the Low Level Version of DX11.2 is only made for 1 APU.

 

[Ookami]

Thats not why it's fales, it's fales because they have there own Low Level API since the first Xbox and its way more advanced the mantle ever could be.

Because Mantle has still to run on all GCN GPUs, but the Low Level Version of DX11.2 is only made for 1 APU.

 

We all know that they have it and will NEVER release it. Mantle will do the opposite - brake the seal to use full cards potential. In near future we will see how it all will develope...