Broadwell & Skylake

[ZmanFTW]

I am trying to figure out what type of power supply is going to be required for upcoming Broadwell & Skylake chips from Intel.

 

MEANING:

 

Not only will you need a new 1150 socket motherboard to run Broadwell and Skylake chips but you will also need a new type of power supply!

 

Broadwell 1150 chips are not going to be backwards compatible with Haswell.

 

Current gen power supplies will become extinct slowly but surely...

 

So it is not a question of needing more wattage, most likely it will be less. It is just a matter of upgrading to the right components at the right time!

 

I did read the name of what they are called in an article but have since forgotten and now after searching cannot find this info anywhere. I know that in addition to DDR4 being introduced, SATA-E or SATA Express SSDs will be introduced. Getting a handle on the thermals for these 14nm chips alone sounds like they might make a worthy upgrade from Ivy Bridge or especially Haswell. Then DDR4 & SATA Express sound inviting also.

 

I know that because of production setbacks Intel will most likely not release Broadwell until Q4 2014. I am already going to want to upgrade my monitor to a G-SYNC in late 2014 or whenever BenQ starts doing them. Was planning to get a bigger power supply and a GTX 780 but holding out until April/May to see if GTX 880 is Maxwell 20nm or not.

 

Put this in general discussion since all this tech ties together, any additional info greatly appreciated!

 

I just want to upgrade my system in such a way that I don't want to buy everything again in one year! :wacko:

[Ryan Leech]

Haswell-E is going to be much better.

[Tmh85]

I doubt not that much, probably even less than Haswell nothing over 850, with 750W youll be fine

Go with Corsair or Antec, or even EVGA

[Altecice]

Also if the 880 isint the new 20nm then Nvidia are idiots

[KrazyKap]

I doubt not that much, probably even less than Haswell nothing over 850, with 750W youll be fine

Go with Corsair or Antec, or even EVGA

 

For SLI 780s sure. CM V series, Silverstone Strider Plus, XFX or Seasonic PSUs are also worth looking at...

[ZmanFTW]

Power supplies I always do STRONG single rail SeaSonic, Corsair, or PC Power & Cooling. Considered going Haswell-E but chances are there will be Broadwell-E and Skylake-E also!! I also have a strong suspicion that Haswell refresh (1150) will NOT have DDR4, maybe not even Broadwell. Intel's marketing strategies are killing me! :angry:

Was planning to do GTX 770s in SLI until I took a long hard close look at all the games that do not support SLI. Now I just want as strong of a single GPU as I can afford which right now would be GTX 780. 780 Ti does not seem to offer enough performance to justify additional $200 to $250. Hoping that Maxwell 20nm will get me that average 120 fps or higher that I am craving...

More food for thought:

Rumors are that Broadwell will be more geared towards tablets and laptops, which means more iGPU nonsense. But lower TDP and no more locked multipliers on chips means that lower end i5 sales would go through the roof! Granted this is all just speculation and rumors...

Microsoft creates Windows 8 with tablets/portables in mind and expects everyone to want it.

Intel creates new processors with tablets/portables in mind and expects everyone to want them.

NVIDIA creates first video card lineup to feature on-board ARM chip.

Anyone else seeing a pattern here?!

Just give PC gamers, overclockers, and custom desktop PC builders what they want!

[Inkz]

 I am already going to want to upgrade my monitor to a G-SYNC in late 2014 or whenever BenQ starts doing them. Was planning to get a bigger power supply and a GTX 780 but holding out until April/May to see if GTX 880 is Maxwell 20nm or not.

 

Put this in general discussion since all this tech ties together, any additional info greatly appreciated!

 

I just want to upgrade my system in such a way that I don't want to buy everything again in one year! :wacko:

Buy a EVGA 780 right now and use their step-up program to upgrade later at very little cost.

[deathjester]

http://www.techspot.com/review/734-battlefield-4-benchmarks/page6.html

 

With broadwell skylake maybe we can max two titans at 2.3 ghz instead of 2.5ghz?

 

Like someone else said. If you are gonna be spending a lot of money get Haswell-E. They will put solder under the lid and it will clownstomp the die shrink that will probably need water cooling AND a delid to OC at all. 

 

At least with Haswell-E you can put in more cards then you can max at 2.5ghz...

 

The only difference you are gonna see from Sandy to these new chips on the non E chips is rendering anyways. 

 

DDR4? Yup it is 2133 and up. The problem? It uses less voltage. What is the LATENCY going to be. Thats all I care about. I can clock my memory to 2400. The problem? The latency is garbage and I end up with worse performance then at 2133, which barely beats tighter 1866. Do we even know if DD4 is going to have lower latency yet? It might be just like Haswell was. A side grade with lower power usage. New power supply, new everything and good luck getting those power savings back over the next few years. Maybe if you litecoin mine or something it will be attractive. 

 

DDR4 might show big swings on integrated graphics (I am sure corsair will have a article on that), but for people with one big card? It might do nothing at all. 

[ZmanFTW]

Yeah, I want highest frames possible but de-lidding for me is not an option. I have done enough overclocking in my time that I know a few tricks if I really want a high overclock. But I usually just do a moderate overclock that I am comfortable with 24/7 like 4.0 GHz or 4.2 GHz. The extreme end chips and mobos are so much more expensive, especially when they first come out. Upgrading for me is performance gains vs. cost and I always keep in mind that something better is around the corner which is kind of what this whole post is about, the future...just teleport me 6 months!

Only bad part about EVGA step up is that they limit which cards you can step up to and if I'm doing EVGA I am usually looking at Classified or FTW. Granted that the chip is the same and more Precision work might get you same clocks. But really that is an ideal suggestion which I am still considering.

Eyeballing the ASUS GTX 780 also though because I owned an ASUS GTX 670 TOP before and it was highly impressive. I unfortunately sold it because I was short on money at the time. I am currently running an EVGA GTX 760 FTW 4GB mostly because I just wanted to learn where the VRAM cap is for most of my games and was considering SLI until price drops on 770/780. Aside from that though I now believe VRAM above 2GB to 3GB to be marketing nonsense...at least currently. Just like me to test the waters though! At least with a 780 there is more bandwidth for the 3GB which is plenty for all my current games.

According to this chart for Maxwell, if this is even close, the performance increase looks incredible. NVIDIA would have to do an MC Hammer video for AMD!

As far as DDR4 and latency? 2133 = 1333, 2400 = 1600, 2666 = 1866, etc. Yes the latency will most likely start off somewhat high, but lower power means less heat and higher clocks. I fully expect G.Skill to have the first low latency DDR4 2133/2400. Corsair and Avexir will most likely be quick to jump on this too.

DDR4 2400 @ 9-9-9-24 ...that would be frickin awesome though! :lol:

OP ... VCCST power supply? For Intel Broadwell, users require V_PROC_IO connection with a 1.05V power source, VCCST Power supply and a new THRMTRIP output buffer that requires the platform change.

[eshbop]

No chance in hell you'll straight out need a new PSU. Like Haswell some might not support the low-power states required for some S-states but you'll be able to disable these in the UEFI.

 

It's hard to say. Releasing a Haswell-refresh is almost certainly because the haven't ironout all the kinks with their 14nm Trigate process. Broadwell's proximity to Haswell-E (as well as it's delay) might mean it's given more of a platform upgrade than we are used to with 'ticks', and this is made more likely if Broadwell chips aren't compatible with 8-series chipset mobos.

[deathjester]

As far as DDR4 and latency? 2133 = 1333, 2400 = 1600, 2666 = 1866, etc. Yes the latency will most likely start off somewhat high, but lower power means less heat and higher clocks. I fully expect G.Skill to have the first low latency DDR4 2133/2400. Corsair and Avexir will most likely be quick to jump on this too.

 

DDR4 2400 @  9-9-9-24 ...that would be frickin awesome though! :lol:

 

Who says it will take higher volts? 

 

Can you run 1.5 V on Haswell like you can on Sandy Bridge? Have fun blowing your chip up if you try. We already have cl9 2133. It was on sale for like 60 bucks during the holidays. That is with what 1.65 v running through it?

 

Even IF they get cl9 2400 what is it going to cost? Is it going to run T1? Is it going to be worth it for a whole .5-1 fps in games? If the new chips clock worse then Haswell, then Haswell might end up being better with slower ram and a higher clock.

 

I would wait. Don't believe the BS engineering sample initial reviews and hype we are going to get. When Haswell came out, we were told they ran cool and all overclocked to 4.8 ghz...

 

What a lie that was.  

[ZmanFTW]

I am a technology enthusiast in general. While frames are a main consideration they are not my only consideration. Power efficiency is exciting for me too and while it may not translate to more frames per second, it will result in slightly lower power requirement, slightly less heat and much faster data transfer rates. Intel is in a position to revolutionize the way all this is thought of. Haswell is just a stepping stone, that is why I am skipping it altogether. But ultimately you are right about not getting too excited until all the facts are in.

1.02 - 1.2v is not much lower but clock speeds and data transfer rates are faster with less power. Also the way a GPU and CPU work together is changing which is evident with the ARM chip on the next line of NVIDIA cards. The way DDR4 and Broadwell and/or Skylake work together with this ARM chip will be a major deciding factor for me at least. I actually have the greatest hopes and expectations for Skylake.

SATA Express SSDs are quite a bit more exciting when you combine that with DDR4 and imagine data transfer rate possibilities. Does it help with gaming? No not really. But you may be able to get your games installed a lot faster. SATA III SSD prices are supposed to be taking a serious nosedive which will not really hurt my feelings much.

Unlocked multipliers on all chips? Remains to be seen with Intel...but that's one of many rumors. What I am really hoping for is an unlocked i7 without iGPU and lower wattage = There was also an Intel chart mentioning something about satisfying desktop PC gamers and overclocking enthusiasts, if anybody finds it please post.

Thank you for all your comments, please continue to share your thoughts and opinions on all these up and coming technologies and I will do the same.

Good little article at VR-Zone. I would post link but not sure what is ok or not ok to link to...I am a noob to forums in general :unsure:

[deathjester]

I am a technology enthusiast in general. While frames are a main consideration they are not my only consideration. Power efficiency is exciting for me too and while it may not translate to more frames per second, it will result in slightly lower power requirement, slightly less heat and much faster data transfer rates. Intel is in a position to revolutionize the way all this is thought of. Haswell is just a stepping stone, that is why I am skipping it altogether. But ultimately you are right about not getting too excited until all the facts are in.

 

1.02 - 1.2v is not much lower but clock speeds and data transfer rates are faster with less power. Also the way a GPU and CPU work together is changing which is evident with the ARM chip on the next line of NVIDIA cards. The way DDR4 and Broadwell and/or Skylake work together with this ARM chip will be a major deciding factor for me at least. I actually have the greatest hopes and expectations for Skylake.

 

SATA Express SSDs are quite a bit more exciting when you combine that with DDR4 and imagine data transfer rate possibilities. Does it help with gaming? No not really. But you may be able to get your games installed a lot faster. SATA III SSD prices are supposed to be taking a serious nosedive which will not really hurt my feelings much.

 

Unlocked multipliers on all chips? Remains to be seen with Intel...but that's one of many rumors. What I am really hoping for is an unlocked i7 without iGPU and lower wattage = There was also an Intel chart mentioning something about satisfying desktop PC gamers and overclocking enthusiasts, if anybody finds it please post.

 

Thank you for all your comments, please continue to share your thoughts and opinions on all these up and coming technologies and I will do the same.

 

Mantle and the new Direct X already tile memory. Will bandwidth help more then latency? It hasn't yet. I don't see why that would change.  

 

They haven't even decided if Broadwell will have a on die VRM yet. If it does? That means you are back to expensive motherboards to OC and about the same overclocking as Haswell (at best). Die shrink will add the degrees that the on die vrm gets rid of. So say we get a equal overclock in a best case scenario. You will be 10 percent faster at best, when we are already overkill on the CPU's.

 

With the optimization here and on the way, we are already limited to what the GPU can do. A 8350 at 2ghz won't bottleneck a r9 290x in mantle. And a stock one runs double that. An I7 is faster. In BF4 a 2.5ghz I7 will get you maxed on SLI Titans and that is with crappy Direct X. 

 

The CPU's are so far ahead of the GPU's now that optimization is here, that broadwell and skylake really don't matter, even if they overclock better (which I don't see as possible) and they are going to cost more to do it, if they remove on die VRM.

 

HD? We aren't getting new Sata and even if we did it wouldn't matter because mechanical HD's are just slow. We need SSD to fall in price more then we need a new Sata, and because mechanical drives are so darn slow SSD is just remaining high. My old ancient sata 1 raptor kicks the crap out my new seagate barracuda Sata 6.0 as far as boot time, load times. We already have the tech for caching but samsung owns the good software and it is only sold with ridiculously expensive small cache SSD's. Apple gets caching with "fusion drive" (which you can do on a hackintosh), but Windows screws us over and gives us MS paint and notepad. 

 

What am I saying? I wouldn't bother waiting. If you are gonna wait for anything, wait for Nvidia's next GPU's to hit and for the darn mine coiners to stop buying gpu's .

 

We already have stupidly fast SSD's and stuff. We have thunderbolt 2 boards coming out. The problem is they cost too much money and in the end the only people that need the upgrades we have and that will be here before broadwell/skylake are rendering professionally.

 

As far as gaming. Get a Haswell and go buckwild on Nvidia's next GPU or non ref 290x's. You will be set for years to come. I see nothing exciting coming on the MB CPU front unless you render for a living. Gsync might be cool when they have IPS 1440p Gsync monitors that are somewhat affordable. Until then? Who cares. 

[ZmanFTW]

Who cares?!

 

http://semiaccurate.com/2012/11/26/intel-kills-off-the-desktop-pcs-go-with-it/

[deathjester]

Who cares?!

 

http://semiaccurate.com/2012/11/26/intel-kills-off-the-desktop-pcs-go-with-it/

 

This article hasn't changed for the last 20 years. Desktop's have been "dying". PC gaming has been "dying". They have been claiming we will all use tablets to game on as well. Seeing that gaming laptops overheat at the die shrink they now have? I don't see it happening any time soon.

 

You can't water cool a tablet and we are at the point where they are going to have to water cool a laptop, which makes it pointless. GPU's are getting to the same point. We might need water cooling to OC these next die shrinks just to = Haswell on air and even funnier Sandy Bridge, which is as relevant now as the day it was released.

 

If you have a SB 2600k doing 4.8 ghz on a 30 dollar air cooler with 2 cheap case fans, and a Haswell doing 4.2-4.3 (which people often get stuck at) with a huge water cooler and 4-6 case fans and two on the rad, which one is using more energy? Which one is better? At 4.5ghz on a 4770k there are people right there with me on Cinebench with an air cooled Sandy Bridge and I have higher clocked ram (not that better ram is that gigantic a swing).

 

There were articles saying PC gaming was dead every week leading up to the craptastic next gen consoles, and they will continue to be written. Why? Because these websites are owned by big companies, not your average Joe. Look at who owns Tom's Hardware. It sure isn't Tom. He sold the webpage a long time ago.

 

Steam just set all time records. PC gaming and the desktop aren't going anywhere and gaming on a tablet or even a laptop with an experience even close to a desktop is just impossible.

 

They want to kill the desktop and have us game on the cloud for one reason. To kill piracy and get even more money. They are soon going to be teaching an anti piracy curriculum in elementary schools (LOL). Won't teach a kid about Nikola Tesla, but they will get them to report their parents for downloading a song off the internet!

 

This is all about money, not a better experience. All these companies are in bed with each other. Tablets suck. Cloud gaming sucks. Die shrinks accomplish nothing as far as a gaming experience. There are people on this forum with Sandy's as fast as my Haswell. They didn't upgrade to Ivy and Haswell for the same reason they could care less about more die shrinks. 

 

Broadwell and Skylake might "kill desktop gaming", but that is only if they can convince people they aren't getting screwed. Can they do it? Sure. If you control the media and "trusted tech sites"? You can change opinion on anything. Works with politics as well. People now think 90C is a good temp for a cpu. Why? Because they are stupid. If people keep their OC Sandy Bridge? Intel makes no money. Same with Ivy/Haswell. If the chip breaks in a few years running at stupidly high temps? Who profits?

 

I wonder why these companies are scared of desktops and want them to die...

http://www.lazygamer.net/general-news/ps4-and-xbox-one-emulators-could-arrive-as-early-as-next-year/

 

Oh yeah. The new consoles are x86 small cpu's and they suck compared to an old sandy bridge that are running as good as ever. Good thing they released them in the winter. Less red rings of death...

[ZmanFTW]

I did realize it was an older article, but it was on the internet so it must be true. You bring up some very valid points though and I value your feedback. I have Ivy Bridge and that's why I want to skip Haswell altogether. But I seen a chart where i7-4770K beats i7-3960X in actual gaming performance. Makes me curious about about Haswell-E though and what it will bring to the table. If there is any truth to motherboard vendors ever getting screwed by Intel soldering chips to boards, then... I want to make sure I am well situated before everything goes EOL or sells out!

 

Here is a somewhat newer write up on Broadwell and why it might be worth waiting for:

 

http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2013/2013112001_Broadwell-K_socket_1150_CPUs_to_feature_GT3_graphics.html

 

I keep coming across stuff saying no DDR4 until Skylake or no PCI Express 4.0 until Skylake and not until 2015/2016. That is too long to wait to upgrade for me at least. Seems to me that almost every reason to upgrade from Ivy Bridge to Haswell is motherboard related. The Haswell refresh (1150) is supposedly not much performance increase and that is why I am thinking beyond it. I want a new processor lineup that does what Sandy Bridge has done with amazing increase in performance and overclockability. I am sure many PC gamers feel the same way. Skylake or Cannonlake may be the next Sandy Bridge that we have been waiting forever for. But if they keep forcefeeding us stronger iGPUs without any real increase in CPU power/performance then yeah it's more of the same and not worth upgrading to. It is true that shrinking the die does nothing for us as far as gaming. If they use lower power with better themals and offer more overclocking headroom though, well...that's different!

 

Thank you again for your valuable feedback and opinions.

[deathjester]

I did realize it was an older article, but it was on the internet so it must be true. You bring up some very valid points though and I value your feedback. I have Ivy Bridge and that's why I want to skip Haswell altogether. But I seen a chart where i7-4770K beats i7-3960X in actual gaming performance. Makes me curious about about Haswell-E though and what it will bring to the table. If there is any truth to motherboard vendors ever getting screwed by Intel soldering chips to boards, then... I want to make sure I am well situated before everything goes EOL or sells out!

 

Here is a somewhat newer write up on Broadwell and why it might be worth waiting for:

 

http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2013/2013112001_Broadwell-K_socket_1150_CPUs_to_feature_GT3_graphics.html

 

I keep coming across stuff saying no DDR4 until Skylake or no PCI Express 4.0 until Skylake and not until 2015/2016. That is too long to wait to upgrade for me at least. Seems to me that almost every reason to upgrade from Ivy Bridge to Haswell is motherboard related. The Haswell refresh (1150) is supposedly not much performance increase and that is why I am thinking beyond it. I want a new processor lineup that does what Sandy Bridge has done with amazing increase in performance and overclockability. I am sure many PC gamers feel the same way. Skylake or Cannonlake may be the next Sandy Bridge that we have been waiting forever for. But if they keep forcefeeding us stronger iGPUs without any real increase in CPU power/performance then yeah it's more of the same and not worth upgrading to. It is true that shrinking the die does nothing for us as far as gaming. If they use lower power with better themals and offer more overclocking headroom though, well...that's different!

 

Thank you again for your valuable feedback and opinions.

 

Haswell -E will be good because it will have solder under the lid. If I was going to spend more then a cheap board and Haswell (and if broadwell requries a expensive board due to no on die votlage regulator I wouldn't bother with it), I would go Haswell -E. We are going to be GPU bound. Haswell -E can run more then 2 cards. 

 

People complain about Haswell, but the on die VRM is a good thing as far as budget. The cheapest z87 board in the world (and mine is dirt cheap) overclocks like a champ. The negative? Extra heat. If Broadwell goes away from this and they might have to because of temps? I would go Haswell-E all the way. It will be like a delid Haswell that can run more then two video cards and probably won't be much more then a premium MB and a Broadwell I7 chip. If you want you can spring for a 12 thread and render stupidly fast.

 

Could Intel decide to put solder back on Broadwell? Sure. Will it happen? I doubt it. Not unless the heat is so bad with the die shrink that they have to do it to prevent throttling on a stock cooler. They aren't happy with people killing next gen chips in performance with older gen. On 2011? They don't care. You are paying a lot for the chipset and board. Add to that 12 thread chips would be SUPER HOT with no solder.

 

Haswell might be the best "budget chip" series Intel has released past Sandy. I LOVE my 4770k. That said? The swings are drastic on them. 250 dollar MB water cooling? People who lost the silicon lottery are at 4.3, unless they are willing to run unsafe voltage/temps. Air cooler, cheap board? People are at 4.5. My chip could easily do 4.7 on water and some have got higher then that with complete stability and good temps. It is just getting hard to make them all "winners" with this small a die. If I would have bought an expensive motherboard and a h100i and I was stuck at 4.3 or lower? I would be pretty damn mad. If the trend continues with die shrinks, AND you need a expensive motherboard as well? It might be a downgrade for the enthusiast on a budget as the money would be better spent on video cards then an expensive z97.

 

If I was gonna wait on anything? Wait for Haswell-E. Just decide if you want 8 or 12 threads. Don't expect a gigantic swing in performance though. There are still a ton of Sandy 2011's up there in cinebench. This is all if you were going to render though or be future proof at 4k or something, or if I was attempting to 4k game. If I was just playing games at 1080p or 1440p? I would get a cheap Haswell z87 board, hope I got a decent chip and spend the rest of the money on video cards. These Sandy's just won't go away.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlC81MjwelBgdEZNV3l6aHl1eUNwSUR4Rml0MXMzN1E&usp=sharing#gid=0

[ZmanFTW]

Maybe Intel would take notice if we get like a million people to "downgrade" back to Sandy Bridge all at once! Intel would be like wait a minute, what just happened? :huh:

 

What if NVIDIA's ARM chip and rumors of Broadwell K already talking about major boost in graphics performance are not coincidence. Maybe a new performance increase like Sandy Bridge is just not possible yet and so Intel has turned its focus onto how to increase performance by making the CPU and GPU work together better than it ever has been able to in the past. This would make PC Gamers and many other desktop enthusisasts very happy and the Maxwell performance boost on the chart above would even makes more sense. But would that mean that Sandy/Ivy/Haswell will not see the same performance as Haswell refresh and Broadwell K? Could be the main marketing strategy behind Haswell refresh too since it is only a 100MHz bump in CPU clock, who is going to really care about that alone to want to upgrade?!

 

Sorry, guess I'm prone to wild flights of theory and guessing when it comes to future tech. I just want to know how to plan my budget and build accordingly. My BenQ XL2420TE needs all the love it can get!

[deathjester]

Maybe Intel would take notice if we get like a million people to "downgrade" back to Sandy Bridge all at once! Intel would be like wait a minute, what just happened? :huh:

 

What if NVIDIA's ARM chip and rumors of Broadwell K already talking about major boost in graphics performance are not coincidence. Maybe a new performance increase like Sandy Bridge is just not possible yet and so Intel has turned its focus onto how to increase performance by making the CPU and GPU work together better than it ever has been able to in the past. This would make PC Gamers and many other desktop enthusisasts very happy and the Maxwell performance boost on the chart above would even makes more sense. But would that mean that Sandy/Ivy/Haswell will not see the same performance as Haswell refresh and Broadwell K? Could be the main marketing strategy behind Haswell refresh too since it is only a 100MHz bump in CPU clock, who is going to really care about that alone to want to upgrade?!

 

Sorry, guess I'm prone to wild flights of theory and guessing when it comes to future tech. I just want to know how to plan my budget and build accordingly. My BenQ XL2420TE needs all the love it can get!

 

Watch the AMD mantle demo from Oxide games. IF Nvidia makes their own low level API and IF M$ doesn't go buckwild trying to stop this (because Direct X is the whole selling point of win 8), I wouldn't worry about CPU or GPU optimizations. They are here.

 

Keep in mind that demo is on a 8350 (no matter what they say, a Sandybridge is faster, and they wouldn't even commit to the 8350 being equal or better then the I7 or show any evidence), with a single r9 290x card and they say the GPU isn't bottlenecked with the 8350 at 2ghz. We could run our I7's and 8350's at half clock with optimization on a single card. If you look at their graphs the CPU on 8 threads barely has to do anything (just like a console). The whole AMD vs Intel thing in games will be moot to be honest. 

 

Our hardware has been overkill for quite some time now at the resolutions we are using. The things being rendered on screen in that demo are insane compared to what we have now. A console is like 30 k batches. Direct X will spike into the 10's which means you sometimes need 3 times the power to = a crappy next gen console chip and what is about = to  a 7850 video card at BEST on a Playstation 4. They are pulling more then double console efficiency in the demo.

 

Dragon's age, Mass effect, star citizen, thief, battlefront, bf4, new open world Star Wars rpg. All these games will be mantle. A i7-920 would be enough not to limit the GPU. Will these initial release games be 60k batch? No. Will they = console efficiency. Probably. 

 

The only reason I think we are FINALLY getting optimization is that we are hitting thermal limits on silicon. Smaller= hotter=have to clock lower=same. The only thing standing in the way is Microsoft and Direct X and deep pockets. AMD has realized there is no point in trying to match Intel and Intel has realized all they can really do is die shrinks and optimize power usage, which is why their ceo came out and said we should have focused on smaller chips even more. They might abandon the desktop enthusiast market all together.

 

With optimization all current 8 thread and up chips are complete overkill for gaming at stock speeds. So yes it might be cool that a very small form factor case, with a broadwell/skylake running at 2 ghz (to keep temps in line) and not bottlenecking a kick butt GPU or SLI. Performance though? Probably be slower then we have now on overclocks in things other then games. 

[ZmanFTW]

So to make sure I am understanding correctly, in a nutshell the video was saying that CPUs and GPUs are already more powerful than what game developers have learned to handle largely due to driver limitations? I watched the video and while interesting and even intriguing I have to disagree with AMD's idea that to have more on screen is the best way to more fully utilize additional cores and GPU power. The emphasis should always be on quality of what's on screen and not quantity. The answer may very well lie within batch files and using more cores but if we have 10,000 ships in space flying at fast speeds, how many will the human eyes actually be able to see while focusing on the one ship that the player is controlling?! Even if the eyes can see many of them, how much will the mind be able to distinguish before becoming mentally exhausted?! Now maybe this was only meant as an example and if that's the case, great! But I would like to see a more movie like experience in PC games. We are getting extremely close.

 

What I did like though is the idea of the CPU and GPU working better together and game developers being able to get past driver limitations. That should be a given for both AMD and NVIDIA. Also the video more or less explained why game developers are put into the situation of game console ports to PC. Getting around that should be a priority for all game developers. AMD seems to be trying to unify PC gaming and console gaming, which is good as long as PC Gamers are not the ones who end up suffering because of it. Most PC Gamers spend more money on hardware than console gamers so PC Gamers should be rewarded and not punished for that. Maybe that's why we have not seen GTA V on PC yet? I hope it's a made for PC version and not another lame port like GTA IV was.

 

The only thing troublesome in my mind about the batch files is total space requirement. By itself one batch file is tiny but if they start doing them by more than the thousands it could get ridiculous fast. Batman Arkham Origins was one of the biggest installs I have seen in a long time at 24GB. It was 18.3GB after install but still...jeesh! Faster access times with SSDs and more space with hard drives I guess. Unless RAM is holding onto a ton of info!

 

I am very grateful that you recommended that video though, much insight. It's just that AMD is always of the mindset that more is better while Intel and NVIDIA seem to be more focused on efficiency. That is precisely why it takes an 8-core AMD CPU to try to keep up with a 4-core Intel CPU. But like you said it has become a moot point now. Intel is rumored to be releasing chips with more than 6-cores for desktops soon, so perhaps they are choosing a similar approach with a different twist.

 

When I upgraded from an i5-2500K to i7-3770K many thought that I was nuts and that it was not worth it. Aside from PC Gaming though I could feel the difference in overall system responsiveness on a regular basis with everyday computing. May have been the hyperthreading but it just felt like a faster more responsive system overall regardless. I watch blu-rays on my PC also so if I do some version of Haswell, DTS is a must. Right now ASUS Z87 Pro + i7-4770K looks inviting to me but it would be a kick in the teeth if the refresh or Haswell-E offer something that I wished I would have waited for

 

VCCST PSU or whatever it will be called is even more troublesome for me to think about. I don't want to upgrade my PSU only for it to be obsolete in a year again. So many parts that I would love to pull the trigger on but knowing the industry as well as I do and with my current budget, I want to at least wait a bit.

[ZmanFTW]

[deathjester]

We don't have GTA V on PC for one reason. Piracy. As far as better cinematics or movie like graphics. I imagine the new Mass Effect will look pretty darn good and same with Witcher. Witcher devs are in M$'s pocket so that game won't be mantle and neither will other "games for windows" companies. Witcher will probably require two freakin GTX 780's to run at top quality at 1080p which is just stupid.

 

M$ is who has held back optimization and they do it so they can sell their new OS's with a new direct x. See Direct x 10 and 11. Without direct x all of us gamers would have linux installs for games and be running open GL because there is less crap going on in the background in linux and Open GL is better then Direct X 11. Direct X 9 was fast, but that is because it failed to show all the effects. All these companies usually do a open gl port to Mac, but we never get native releases because then Windows would be pointless. M$ has deep pockets. They could throw a huge wrench in optimization and I imagine they will do everything possible to prevent it. 

 

Now if that is your Ivy Bridge? The only thing I would wait for is Nvidia's next series which should be coming out in the next few months. If mantle doesn't get dropped by devs or stopped by M$? AMD might be better. If the 8xx series just kick butt. Get two of them.

 

A 4.8 ghz ivy is more then you need in games for probably the next 5 years and that voltage is outstanding and I imagine temps are good. You are probably beating out most badly binned Haswell's to be honest.

[ZmanFTW]

I really don't think piracy is as big of an issue as it used to be. They have done a lot of cracking down on it. I purchase every game I play and every software I use unless of course they are free. I am still going to continue hoping and praying that they are using this time to fine tune the PC version into the best GTA for PC ever! The majority of my games are on Steam and Origin and I prefer them there. Makes it easier when I do a new build or fresh Win7 64-bit install. I just have to remember to uninstall all my games first so I don't use up my activations, that's my only gripe. Win7 is the same way, it's not a different PC dammit, I just upgrade often! :angry:

 

I will never do AMD again just for the record. NVIDIA has their driver issues from time to time also but my CCC was blnking out so bad that it was unreadable. I tried everything short of rigging the PC with plastic explosives but I just could not get AMD to run smooth like Intel/Nvidia. So you can call me a fanboy, for Nvidia I would take that as a compliment. I was reading about some of the research and development that they do. Amazing stuff really. I wonder if even 25% of PC gamers using Nvidia's GPUs know about even a little of what Nvidia actually does as a company!

 

As far as M$ goes, not a fan at all. If Apple would make available the same variety of stuff to build desktop gaming Macs I would jump ship in a heartbeat. As a matter of fact I could walk into Apple and show them how to make it happen! They could start by designing and manufacturing desktop processors and motherboard chipsets. I am quite aware of Hackintosh but not a fan. Motherboard vendors would be delighted to do business with Apple for a change. This would also open up new doors for game developers and publishers. If Intel keeps focusing on cell phones, tablets, and laptops you never know. I was reading annual marketing reports on the money spent by consumers on video gaming in general and it is constantly growing every year. Even the money consumers spend on PC gaming is growing every year. Steve Jobs would be VERY proud if Apple were able to put an end to the control that M$ has had over desktop computers. I really don't see it as that far fetched if Intel and Microsoft continue to ignore desktop enthusiasts.

 

Yeah, please don't misunderstand. I do NOT run 4.8GHz 24/7. More like 4.0 ~ 4.2GHz actually, which is plenty fast for me. But yeah it is really my benchmark! But it is an older pic from when I used to have my ASUS GTX 670 TOP.

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/bi55.jpg/

 

I don't overclock or benchmark often at all. Usually when I first build a system it's my way of breaking the system in. But yeah you can see why I am not too enthusiastic for Haswell and why I am looking to probably Broadwell or Skylake. If I did upgrade to Haswell it would be for motherboard features. Like I said, I am a blu-ray enthusiast also.

 

ASUS Z87 PRO would be my choice:

 

Realtek® ALC1150 8-Channel High Definition Audio CODEC
- Supports : Jack-detection, Multi-streaming, Front Panel Jack-retasking
- High quality 112 dB SNR stereo playback output (Line-out at rear) and 104 dB SNR recording input (Line-in)
Audio Feature :
- Absolute Pitch 192kHz/ 24-bit True BD Lossless Sound
- DTS Ultra PC II
- DTS Connect
- Optical S/PDIF out port(s) at back panel
- BD Audio Layer Content Protection

 

Saves money on sound card!

[deathjester]

Why aren't you a fan of Hackintosh?

 

I freakin love Mavericks for everything not gaming. My MB requires post install kexts (once you get the hang of it, is no harder then installing drivers) but there are many Gigabyte motherboards that work out of box with an installer, because Apple computers use the same integrated network/sound. Chances are your board works. Google the MB and "hackintosh".

 

http://www.tonymacx86.com/405-building-customac-buyer-s-guide-december-2013.html

 

Hit up the forum there. It is pretty friendly. 

 

Most motherboards will work with a kext install or the right sound/network chosen during the install process. As far as the legality of it. This is completely legal to install YOURSELF. It is illegal to sell Mac "clones" in the United States after a court ruling (it is still legal in places like Germany last I looked). Apple has TRIED to make it illegal to install Mac OS, but they would have to claim to invented unix which Mac Os is based off of, the ATI/Nvidia cards they use, and so on, the intel chipset, the CPU, the integrated NIC/soundcard from realtek. It would be a ridiculous court case. They can put anything on the TOS they want, but it won't stand up in court and they know it. All they do is "refine" stuff that already exists.

 

Nvidia cards almost always work with it. AMD CPU's are an absolute pain to run as a hackintosh. "Fusion drive" works with any SSD/HD. The only thing not 100 percent supported is thunderbolt, which = who really cares to be honest.  It works but it is sketchy at best. Might be better with Mavericks, but it sucked with Lion. I don't have a thunderbolt board so I couldn't tell ya.

 

I have hackintoshed my computers for years and never ran into a problem. In fact they are more stable then Mac's because Imac's get too darn hot with so little room for airflow. Mac Pros are just too unbalanced. Killer workstation CPU (if you spend 10 grand). Outdated GPU.

 

The new Mac Pro has a slowed down 4770 that can run now useless  1866 ECC ram. ..22 percent of ram suffers an error every YEAR...

http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~bianca/papers/sigmetrics09.pdf

and a pair of 7870's or R9 270's. It is 3 grand LOL. People are actually preordering this trashcan computer and are HAPPY about paying the price.

 

As far as Apple? No I could care less about "supporting apple" by buying hardware as well as their software. They market things in tricky ways to fool people and act as if they invented the SSD, DVD drive, panels that they use from LG and on and on. They stole their original OS and even the mouse from Xerox. Watch "Pirates of Silicon Valley". Was a made for TV movie and fantastic. Much better then that tripe PR movie "Jobs". Gates and Jobs are both ruthless jerks and Gates saved Apple financially which is why you have MS Office on Mac Os now. Hell, Gates probably has a ton of shares of Apple through Microsoft.

http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2009/08/dayintech_0806/

 

Own the "gaming" OS with a monopoly on Direct X with FORCED OS upgrades and make the home video makers and "real life stuff" absolute crap. Own the "non gaming OS" and make awesome simple to use stuff like imovie, idvd. Make people want or need to have both in a family home, by trying to kill Hackintosh once you made a "Mac" a Intel PC. It's freakin brilliant. 

[ZmanFTW]

Too much work! Even if you get everything set up proper, then you get to worry about games working properly on a regular basis. If I were doing Apple, Thunderbolt display would be a must for me, one of the perks. Many things I do not understand when it comes to Hackintosh. For example what is the deal with video cards like the EVGA 02G-P4-3682-KR GeForce GTX 680 MAC? For the cost you might as well go with a 780/780 Ti.

 

I have seen Pirates of Silicon Valley many times. But it is Gates that steals his first OS from Jobs. Windows was founded on thievery. To be honest I do not like Apple, but I absolutely hate Microsoft for being so ridiculously greedy. So DirectX 11.9, Windows 8.3, Crapple iPoo, who cares? When they create a worthy upgrade to Win7 I will reluctantly upgrade but not until then. Just like Vista was best skipped. Hoping for a more Win7 like Win9 I guess... but like I said I would rather do an Android or Steam OS for desktop than to give M$ any more money. I could run Apple better than Jobs and if they were to follow my leads they would be bigger than M$ and Intel put together. In 10 years teenagers would be asking "Mom, what is a PC?"