My first gaming PC (SFF)

[Hungibungi]

Hi guys!

I'm going to study in a University next year, so I thought about building a gaming PC, so I could carry a thin&light laptop with me. I won't have enough space for an ATX build, so I'm stuck with an ITX, so please don't say that I shouldn't do that. I'll study IT enginering and programing, so I'll use it for it as well.

CPU: I3-8100 *I want to updgrade it for an i7-8700k in the future*
So my first question is that is it a bad idea to do that? Right now an i3-8100 is enough for my needs, and the i7-8700k's price is more than I can afford right now.

Case: Cooler Master Elite 110 *If you know any other cases with the "same" dimensions, than please tell me theirs name. The price is a big factor, because I'm kinda on a budget, I need a laptop too*

CPU cooler: Cooler Master MasterLiquid Lite 120 *I don't know whether it could cool down a i7-8700k with OC (light OC), so I'm thinking about a more expensive one, so if you know a better one that is not too expensive I'm open.

Mobo: ASROCK Z370M-ITX/ac *It is the only cheap board here, so it's fix*

PSU: Corsair VS650W *It's the cheapest good brand here, so I'll only change it if it's bad*

RAM: 1x8 GB Corsair @2400Mhz *I'll updgrade it later if needed*

SSD: Western Digital Blue 250GB M.2-2280 SATA3 SSD *The mobo has an M.2 slot + it won't take up space*

GPU: I have a MSI GT 1030 (passive, low-profile) in my current PC, so I'll stick with it *I'll updgrade it as soon as the next NVIDIA gen comes out, probably for a xx50Ti, or better. I'm a TBSG and RTS gamer, so the GPU is not needed that much.

So. Do you guys think that it could work out? My current rig is a prebuilt one, so I'm nowhere near a pro PC builder, so if you have any advices or ideas please tell me.   The prices in Hungary are pretty insane for some parts, or they are not even available. There are only a few brands in Hungary. My budget is around 650-700$ (what I mentioned before is 650$ at the moment). Would it be a better idea to buy a slim gaming laptop, such as a MSI GS63 with 8th gen CPU (when it comes out)? It is pricey though, the current one with the 1070 is ~2650$, the 1060 one is not available. Aourus is not available. The Acer Predator Triton 700 with 1080 is ~4000 $ (only available with 1080)

[hconverse02]

Hi guys!

I'm going to study in a University next year, so I thought about building a gaming PC, so I could carry a thin&light laptop with me. I won't have enough space for an ATX build, so I'm stuck with an ITX, so please don't say that I shouldn't do that. I'll study IT enginering and programing, so I'll use it for it as well.

CPU: I3-8100 *I want to updgrade it for an i7-8700k in the future*
So my first question is that is it a bad idea to do that? Right now an i3-8100 is enough for my needs, and the i7-8700k's price is more than I can afford right now.

Case: Cooler Master Elite 110 *If you know any other cases with the "same" dimensions, than please tell me theirs name. The price is a big factor, because I'm kinda on a budget, I need a laptop too*

CPU cooler: Cooler Master MasterLiquid Lite 120 *I don't know whether it could cool down a i7-8700k with OC (light OC), so I'm thinking about a more expensive one, so if you know a better one that is not too expensive I'm open.

Mobo: ASROCK Z370M-ITX/ac *It is the only cheap board here, so it's fix*

PSU: Corsair VS650W *It's the cheapest good brand here, so I'll only change it if it's bad*

RAM: 1x8 GB Corsair @2400Mhz *I'll updgrade it later if needed*

SSD: Western Digital Blue 250GB M.2-2280 SATA3 SSD *The mobo has an M.2 slot + it won't take up space*

GPU: I have a MSI GT 1030 (passive, low-profile) in my current PC, so I'll stick with it *I'll updgrade it as soon as the next NVIDIA gen comes out, probably for a xx50Ti, or better. I'm a TBSG and RTS gamer, so the GPU is not needed that much.

So. Do you guys think that it could work out? My current rig is a prebuilt one, so I'm nowhere near a pro PC builder, so if you have any advices or ideas please tell me.  The prices in Hungary are pretty insane for some parts, or they are not even available. There are only a few brands in Hungary. My budget is around 650-700$ (what I mentioned before is 650$ at the moment). Would it be a better idea to buy a slim gaming laptop, such as a MSI GS63 with 8th gen CPU (when it comes out)? It is pricey though, the current one with the 1070 is ~2650$, the 1060 one is not available. Aourus is not available. The Acer Predator Triton 700 with 1080 is ~4000 $ (only available with 1080)

 

For those of you in night mode

[hconverse02]

I'd save for a itx build, you could get a mini barebones prebuilt with a gpu in it, or (probably cheaper) make an itx pc like the one linus has shown, and you could go balls to the wall on that (i5/ryzen and 1060/1070 mini)

[Mooshi]

Kay, so I've built systems in the 3 major form factors. MATX is prob the worst of the bunch since you're not really saving space for the effort invested.

 

As for ITX, unless you have small hands (had to use my GF a bit for this), you're going to have a bad time IF THE CASE IS PACKED WITH HEFTY HARDWARE TO NAVIGATE AROUND. 

 

It's cool admiring your work, but any routine maintenance is a massive pain when everything is touching . Depending on how compact you go, you may need to remove a part or two to get to the one you need to service. Also cable management doesn't exist in most cases.

 

On the upside, if your build is all SFF, it's way less daunting.

[Revamp]

4 minutes ago, Mooshi said:

Kay, so I've built systems in the 3 major form factors. MATX is prob the worst of the bunch since you're not really saving space for the effort invested.

 

As for ITX, unless you have small hands (had to use my GF a bit for this), you're going to have a bad time. It's cool admiring your work, but any routine maintenance is a massive pain. Depending on how compact you go, you may need to remove a part or two to get to the one you need to service. Also cable management doesn't exist in most cases.

I'd disagree with the ITX part. I just built an ITX computer, and it was BY FAR the easiest to build, as well as super small and portable. It took me under 10mins to build it and 4 panel screws and I can open it with direct access to any part.

I think a lot depends on the case you go with, but to rule them all out due to Mobo form factor is a bad way to go about it.

[Mooshi]

19 minutes ago, Revamp said:

I'd disagree with the ITX part. I just built an ITX computer, and it was BY FAR the easiest to build, as well as super small and portable. It took me under 10mins to build it and 4 panel screws and I can open it with direct access to any part.

I think a lot depends on the case you go with, but to rule them all out due to Mobo form factor is a bad way to go about it.

In no way does "depending" equate to "rule them all out".

 

Not every itx case has an intelligent layout and it also comes down to part selection as well. Take the Core 500 sitting on my GF's desk vs the case I use. If I want to change a drive out, I open a side panel, slide it out and replace. In the Core 500, you take off the shell and then deal with screws that secure the drive in place. If the drives we're mounted on the inside instead of outside, it makes things way more tedious.

 

The issue isn't building an itx rig, if you re-read, the dig was at SERVICING the system once it's complete. Some cases make this more difficult than others. The V1 rig I've build for my GF's mom is way easier to service because of how open it is. Case choice for ITX is super critical if you want an easier time servicing it.

 

Edit, just looked up your case. Yeah, that's no harder than dropping a Raspberry Pi board in a small case. If someone already has existing hardware that's more standard sized, cases like that may not be viable.

 

Next mini build I do in the future will prob be like that lol

[Revamp]

17 minutes ago, Mooshi said:

In no way does "depending" equate to "rule them all out".

 

Not every itx case has an intelligent layout and it also comes down to part selection as well. Take the Core 500 sitting on my GF's desk vs the case I use. If I want to change a drive out, I open a side panel, slide it out and replace. In the Core 500, you take off the shell and then deal with screws that secure the drive in place. If the drives we're mounted on the inside instead of outside, it makes things way more tedious.

 

 

The issue isn't building an itx rig, if you re-read, the dig was at SERVICING the system once it's complete. Some cases make this more difficult than others. The V1 rig I've build for my GF's mom is way easier to service because of how open it is. Case choice for ITX is super critical if you want an easier time servicing it.

I think YOU should re-read your own post haha. You did indeed bash the whole ITX form factor purely due to the form factor. Your verbiage made it sound as if you were classifying all ITX builds together purely due to all being ITX.

I will highlight YOUR own comments.

 

1.) As for ITX, unless you have small hands (had to use my GF a bit for this), you're going to have a bad time.

You state this as factual. Hence why I said it depends on the case, not the form factor. I did not have a bad time at all because I chose a well laid out case.

 

2.) It's cool admiring your work, but any routine maintenance is a massive pain.

Once again you state this as factual when it couldn't be further from the truth. My maintenance is EXTREMELY easy because I chose a well laid out case. It literally takes me 4 screws to remove a side panel and I can access any part. In all honesty, maintenance in my ITX is 10x easier than any mid/full tower build I've done in the past with a lot of it due to not having a massive case to move and flop around.

 

3.) Depending on how compact you go, you may need to remove a part or two to get to the one you need to service.

Going more compact does not mean you'll necessarily have to remove parts to get to others. This is once again all dependant on your case....

 

4.) Also cable management doesn't exist in most cases.

Definitely not wrong here though.

 

 

Moral of my point is it's not at all dependent on form factor, but more-so CASE SELECTION. Don't down-talk ITX just because you chose a bad case lol.

Here is my build log and you can see just how small, yet open my case is.

https://pcpartpicker.com/b/q26scf

[Hungibungi]

I'm aware that it could be hard to clean it out and to change out some parts, but I don't really mind that. My main point is to make sure that the parts are okey, and whether I should just buy a thin laptop instead of this + a thin&light. But thanks for pointing the service dificulties out.

[Mooshi]

4 minutes ago, Revamp said:

Moral of my point is it's not at all dependent on form factor, but more-so CASE SELECTION. Don't down-talk ITX just because you chose a bad case lol.

I'd hardly call a case that could fit existing hardware without having to go all out small niche parts "bad".

 

Also lol are we even arguing? It's a form factor, no reason to be all defensive over it.

[Revamp]

6 minutes ago, Mooshi said:

I'd hardly call a case that could fit existing hardware without having to go all out small niche parts "bad". I think we can agree on it cases the size of matx ones are woefully hopeless.

 

Also lol are we even arguing? It's a form factor, no reason to be all defensive over it.

 

Not arguing  Just clarifying so OP doesn't get misinformed. Based on your verbiage you made it out to sound like "If you go ITX, you're going to have a hard time no questions asked". You can even see this in his second post where he said thanks for pointing out the servicing issues.

 

So now OP is mislead into thinking ITX is painful to build/maintain when that's not 100% true, and ultimately just all depends on the case.

 

My bad for coming off as "Defensive", I typically fail miserably at conveying emotions through text online. I always come off as mad/upset/defensive, when that's not how I intended LOL.

 

Edit: I should have chose a different word though, I didn't mean to call your case "bad" per-se but more of choosing a case that amplifies the problematic servicing you brought up.

 

[Ckdota]

Do you own any of these parts now?

 

Personally I would go with ryzen APU which fits your needs. There are AM4 mini-itx motherboards (you will have to do research to see if there is a BIOS update for the APU) and that will give you additional room to fit all your components. That also lets you leave that GPU at home or sell it before you leave to UNI. 

 

Your upgrade path from there could be moving your system into an ATX case, adding a ryzen 5/7 CPU and discrete graphics. 

 

 

Alternatively you can go for the team optiplex mode and buy a used optiplex on ebay/online classifieds which should be able to fit your SFF gpu. Upgrade path is not that great but you are saving on that up front cost.

[Ms Mercedes - Trijet Girl]

Count me in as pro-ITX! Sometimes ITX cases can be absurdly easy to build in. I only have two bits of advice:

 

1) Some cases require the power supply to also be a smaller form factor. I made the mistake of building a Silverstone SG05 without checking the size of my selected SFX PSU. Yep, an inch too long.

 

2) Some cases you'll have to build from the bottom up. An example is my attached Raijintek Metis Plus. If you put in a part too early, you're going to have to take it out to get something else in.

[Hungibungi]

1 minute ago, Ckdota said:

Do you own any of these parts now?

 

Personally I would go with ryzen APU which fits your needs. There are AM4 mini-itx motherboards (you will have to do research to see if there is a BIOS update for the APU) and that will give you additional room to fit all your components. That also lets you leave that GPU at home or sell it before you leave to UNI. 

 

Your upgrade path from there could be moving your system into an ATX case, adding a ryzen 5/7 CPU and discrete graphics. 

The ryzen 3 2200g costs more than an i3-8100 (at least in Hungary) and performs worse. I only have the GPU (so the igpu doesn't matter).

[Mooshi]

Basically OP, there are 3 types of ITX builds. Those that are about the size of an MATX..which are great for working in, not so much saving space. Then we have cases aimed at those that allow builders to reuse existing standard sized hardware -- in the case of the Fractal Core 500 that allows 3.5" drives, 240mm AIO / monster heatsinks, full sized PSUs and full sized graphics cards. Downside to those is while still compact, it's so densely packed and harder to service.

 

Then you have the super compact with the niche hardware requirements.These tend to have trade offs if you wanted to use a standard part if they allow it like the NCase allowing a full sized PSU at the expense of graphics card length and I think loss of some storage options if I can recall.

 

Due to the niche smaller parts, they can ironically be easier to service because you have an SFX PSU, maybe all SSD, low profile cooler etc.  It really depends if you want flexibility of reusing existing hardware or if you're willing to rebuy hardware like that smaller PSU.

 

I only responded because I wanted to share perspective that simple things can potentially no longer be simple. Like I've responded to another, I've also built in an open Thermal take V1 and it was super easy to work in, kinda like an all rounder. If you're not after monster coolers support or stuff like 3.5" drives, your experience may be less cramped lol

[Hungibungi]

13 minutes ago, Ms Mercedes - Trijet Girl said:

Count me in as pro-ITX! Sometimes ITX cases can be absurdly easy to build in. I only have two bits of advice:

 

1) Some cases require the power supply to also be a smaller form factor. I made the mistake of building a Silverstone SG05 without checking the size of my selected SFX PSU. Yep, an inch too long.

 

2) Some cases you'll have to build from the bottom up. An example is my attached Raijintek Metis Plus. If you put in a part too early, you're going to have to take it out to get something else in.

In paper it should fit in it, because the PSU goes beyond the back of the case. The Corsair VS650 is 150mm x 86mm x 140mm, and the Elite 110's maximum PSU capability is 180mm, so it should fit in it, right? 

[Hungibungi]

7 minutes ago, Mooshi said:

Basically OP, there are 3 types of ITX builds. Those that are about the size of an MATX..which are great for working in, not so much saving space. Then we have cases aimed at those that allow builders to reuse existing standard sized hardware -- in the case of the Fractal Core 500 that allows 3.5" drives, 240mm AIO / monster heatsinks, full sized PSUs and full sized graphics cards. Downside to those is while still compact, it's so densely packed and harder to service.

 

Then you have the super compact with the niche hardware requirements.These tend to have trade offs if you wanted to use a standard part if they allow it like the NCase allowing a full sized PSU at the expense of graphics card length and I think loss of some storage options if I can recall.

 

Due to the niche smaller parts, they can ironically be easier to service because you have an SFX PSU, maybe all SSD, low profile cooler etc.  It really depends if you want flexibility of reusing existing hardware or if you're willing to rebuy hardware like that smaller PSU.

 

I only responded because I wanted to share perspective that simple things can potentially no longer be simple. Like I've responded to another, I've also built in an open Thermal take V1 and it was super easy to work in, kinda like an all rounder. If you're not after monster coolers support or stuff like 3.5" drives, your experience may be less cramped lol

I'll only use M.2, just as I said in my first comment. I think the Elite 110 is pretty small, maybe the Cooler Master Elite 130 could be MATX sized? I dunno, but that doesn't really matter. Again, thanks for all the information, but what really matters is the components.

[brob]

In general when using small mini-ITX cases, it is very difficult to include enough cpu cooling power to take advantage of the overclocking abilities of an unlocked cpu like the i7-8700K. In this situation using a lock cpu like the i7-8700 makes more sense.

 

Planning on upgrading a cpu is rarely a good plan. Before the year is done there will be at least one new generation of cpu. By the time you are ready to upgrade, the Coffee Lake platform will likely be obsolete and cpu may be fairly expensive compared to those in the latest generation.

If you can squeeze it into the budget, consider an i5-8400. It comes with a stock cooler which will do a decent job and has enough power to see you through the next few years.

 

Corsair VS is an older model psu. 650W is far more capacity than needed. Consider instead a CX450M. 450W is more than enough for this sort of system. It will even comfortably support the addition of a GTX 1080.

 

Personally I like to leave M.2 slots free for upgrading to NVMe drives.

 

The Elite 110 only allows gpu up to 210mm long. This is not enough for a higher end gpu. Consider the Elite 130, Define Nano S, or Core 500 instead.

 

[Hungibungi]

18 minutes ago, brob said:

In general when using small mini-ITX cases, it is very difficult to include enough cpu cooling power to take advantage of the overclocking abilities of an unlocked cpu like the i7-8700K. In this situation using a lock cpu like the i7-8700 makes more sense.

 

Planning on upgrading a cpu is rarely a good plan. Before the year is done there will be at least one new generation of cpu. By the time you are ready to upgrade, the Coffee Lake platform will likely be obsolete and cpu may be fairly expensive compared to those in the latest generation.

If you can squeeze it into the budget, consider an i5-8400. It comes with a stock cooler which will do a decent job and has enough power to see you through the next few years.

 

Corsair VS is an older model psu. 650W is far more capacity than needed. Consider instead a CX450M. 450W is more than enough for this sort of system. It will even comfortably support the addition of a GTX 1080.

 

Personally I like to leave M.2 slots free for upgrading to NVMe drives.

 

The Elite 110 only allows gpu up to 210mm long. This is not enough for a higher end gpu. Consider the Elite 130, Define Nano S, or Core 500 instead.

 

Yes, I know. That's the reason I opted for a liquid cooler. I saw videos where they could OC the i7 7700k to 4.9 Ghz easily, so I thought I could OC the 8700K a bit too (I'm looking for better 120mm liquid coolers for not much more money. But if I can't find then I could afford an i5-8400. Do you think the Stock cooler could handle it in such a small space?)

Thank you very much for the PSU advice, I'll buy that one!

About the M.2 I think I'll go with that, because it's easier to add a normal SSD then to add an M.2 later (and I'm not sure about my space saving cable management skills )

Yes, I'm aware of that 210mm limitation, but there are GPU-s made for ITX cases, even some GTX 1080-s. They have just 1 fans on them, but I don't want to OC them anyways. And just as I wrote I don't need high-end GPS-s, only mid-tier ones, such as xx50Ti.

[brob]

@Hungibungi

 

There is little point in getting an aio until you have a cpu that needs the cooling power. The i3-8100 and i5-8400 are 65W TDP parts, so they don't need as much cooling as a 95W TDP i7-8700K. The stock cooler will do a good job. Although it might get a bit noisy at full load.

 

[Hungibungi]

4 minutes ago, brob said:

@Hungibungi

 

There is little point in getting an aio until you have a cpu that needs the cooling power. The i3-8100 and i5-8400 are 65W TDP parts, so they don't need as much cooling as a 95W TDP i7-8700K. The stock cooler will do a good job. Although it might get a bit noisy at full load.

 

Okay, thanks. Then I'll just go for the i5-8400 with Stock cooler.

And about the CPU updgrade. I found a few shops which sell 3-4-6th gen i7-s for cheap (not opened). That's why I tought it might be a good idea to do that, because I'd just need a new CPU instead of mobo, ram, cpu and I could have a much stronger system just with that.

Also what do you think about the i3-8350K? I heard only bad things about it, but that one + the aio cooler is actually the same $ as the i5-8400 here. Based on what I read the i3-8350K with OC is a little bit better in games, but a lot worse in other kind of load such as video editing, etc. I'll buy the i7-8700k in a year and a half or so (about the start of the uni). Before that I'll only play on it (Civ VI, Simcity, Ashesashes of singularity, etc), nothing more. If it really is that bad, then sorry I asked that.  

[brob]

The i3-8360K is not a bad cpu, it just isn't terribly cost effective unless one really wants to overclock.

 

PCPartPicker.com lists the difference in US price between the i3-8350K and i5-8400 around $15. Hardly enough for a decent cpu cooler. 

[Hungibungi]

4 minutes ago, brob said:

The i3-8360K is not a bad cpu, it just isn't terribly cost effective unless one really wants to overclock.

 

PCPartPicker.com lists the difference in US price between the i3-8350K and i5-8400 around $15. Hardly enough for a decent cpu cooler. 

In Hungary the i3-8350K is ~200$, the Cooler Master MasterLiquid Lite 120 is ~50$, so it's ~250$, whilst the i5-8400 here is ~235$. (the i3-8100 is ~130$)

[brob]

1 minute ago, Hungibungi said:

In Hungary the i3-8350K is ~200$, the Cooler Master MasterLiquid Lite 120 is ~50$, so it's ~250$, whilst the i5-8400 here is ~235$. (the i3-8100 is ~130$)

In the US the i5-8400 is less than $70 more than the i3-8100.

 

Do cpu prices tend to change very frequently in Hungary?

[Hungibungi]

1 minute ago, brob said:

In the US the i5-8400 is less than $70 more than the i3-8100.

 

Do cpu prices tend to change very frequently in Hungary?

Sadly no. The i5-8400's price stagnates since 2018.01.03 according to the biggest site (like Amazon). But the i3-8100 and the i3-8350K's price is slowly but surely going down. I think the price difference is due to that.

[brob]

@Hungibungi

 

If you can wait a few months, it might be worth doing so. Intel is likely going to announce new cpu by 3rd quarter which may affect pricing.