Ryzen

[TyrealArchea]

28 minutes ago, manikyath said:

and because AMD still doesnt have an answer to xeons either

(please, no repeat of socket G34.. we need something that's not an actual joke...)

I could see them releasing a Dual R7 1800X mobo for something like that.

[TyrealArchea]

1 minute ago, Ramaddil said:

$ 1600 for a CPU....... Intel is overpriced, they have been doing this because they lacked competition and really dont care about the consumer market.

Yeah. To be fair, top of the line Xeons (2x) is about USD18,000... Hopfully AMD will force Intel to drop prices now that Ryzen is coming.

[manikyath]

4 minutes ago, TyrealArchea said:

I could see them releasing a Dual R7 1800X mobo for something like that.

i hope AMD does the clever thing, and engineer a server platform that's more feature-rich than intel's offerings, rather than just slapping 4 sockets on a mobo and calling it a day.

[Ramaddil]

That's the point... Intel makes the bulk of their money in the commercial market, selling CPUS by the thousands for servers.  Honestly the money that they make off of consumer sales is minimal in comparison.  If I can get a 8c/16t CPU for half the cost of a 6900k and get similar performance there is no point in buying intel.  I do suspect that prices will fall on Intel processors but it wont be immediate, because they know people are still skeptical about AMD, and they always have their loyal customers that will pay the premiums.  Plus like i said they dont care if they lose some money on the consumer market when they have their commercial market.

[TyrealArchea]

1 minute ago, Ramaddil said:

That's the point... Intel makes the bulk of their money in the commercial market, selling CPUS by the thousands for servers.  Honestly the money that they make off of consumer sales is minimal in comparison.  If I can get a 8c/16t CPU for half the cost of a 6900k and get similar performance there is no point in buying intel.  I do suspect that prices will fall on Intel processors but it wont be immediate, because they know people are still skeptical about AMD, and they always have their loyal customers that will pay the premiums.  Plus like i said they dont care if they lose some money on the consumer market when they have their commercial market.

Can't really argue with that. I have high hopes for Ryzen. ANd I hope it doesn't let me down.

[TyrealArchea]

2 minutes ago, manikyath said:

i hope AMD does the clever thing, and engineer a server platform that's more feature-rich than intel's offerings, rather than just slapping 4 sockets on a mobo and calling it a day.

Care to elaborate? I would love to know what you think is missing from Intel.

[manikyath]

1 minute ago, TyrealArchea said:

Care to elaborate? I would love to know what you think is missing from Intel.

it's not about what is missing from intel, but what the server folks would be missing if they'd move from intel to AMD.

[TyrealArchea]

1 minute ago, manikyath said:

it's not about what is missing from intel, but what the server folks would be missing if they'd move from intel to AMD.

I see. Never done anything with servers, so I am not sure what they would be missing.

 

[manikyath]

2 minutes ago, TyrealArchea said:

I see. Never done anything with servers, so I am not sure what they would be missing.

 

mostly the ridiculous ram support on intel's xeons, and beyond that just PCIe lanes, and/or storage support.

[TyrealArchea]

1 minute ago, manikyath said:

mostly the ridiculous ram support on intel's xeons, and beyond that just PCIe lanes, and/or storage support.

Ok. I know I was looking at some of the memory supported and I thought I saw some Xeon boards that could handle 2TB RAM.... That is insanity.

[Ramaddil]

I think he was referring to what brands and types are supported. Xeons are really picky.

[manikyath]

1 minute ago, TyrealArchea said:

Ok. I know I was looking at some of the memory supported and I thought I saw some Xeon boards that could handle 2TB RAM.... That is insanity.

in theory a skylake xeon platform can go up to 6TB ram, but i doubt there's even a mobo standard that can do that, because this is about what it'd look like:

[it_dont_work]

26 minutes ago, TyrealArchea said:

So is Ryzen out for you then? Or upgrading in general for awhile?

I guess that depends if I kill myself going choochoo on the track this year.

[TyrealArchea]

9 minutes ago, manikyath said:

in theory a skylake xeon platform can go up to 6TB ram, but i doubt there's even a mobo standard that can do that, because this is about what it'd look like:

I found one for you:

https://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon/C600/X10QBI.cfm

[PianoPlayer88Key]

I'm considering upgrading from my 4790K to maybe an R7-1700 (X?), for content creation among other things.  (Hopefully with a mild/moderate OC it could do 180-200 single-threaded & 1500-1800 multi-threaded in Cinebench R15, among other things.)

 

For a board, I'd want one I can keep at least 7-10 years, possibly longer.  (I'd replace my case, PSU and board simultaneously, and not until sometime after my PSU's warranty expires.)  Also I want plenty of connectivity, like 10+ SATA, 2+ M.2, 5+ PCI-E x16 (some can be x8), 8 DIMM slots supporting 128 or 256 GB or more RAM.  (The PCI-E would be for expansion cards - adding things as I run out of existing ports, or adding features not originally integrated.)

 

Examples of existing (Intel) boards that come somewhat close to what I'd want would be the ASRock X99 WS (or WS-E), or EVGA X99 Classified.  (Neither of them are quite "perfect", though.)

 

 

I'd anticipate upgrading the CPU possibly once or twice, so long as I don't have to replace the motherboard very soon.

 

First, to a ~$300-400 CPU after about 4-5 years (or the last generation of socket/chipset compatibility) that's hopefully 2-3x or more faster overall.

(CBr15 target: 300-400 single-threaded, 5000-6000 multi-threaded.  1.5-2+x IPC, 16 cores.)

 

Later, to a high-end server-grade CPU, picked up cheap off ebay.  (Kind-of like the equivalent of 2x Xeon X5680 or E5-2670 now, or E7-8891 v2 or E5-2697 v3 in another few years when their prices plummet.)

(CBr15: same single-threaded, >10K multi-threaded, 32+ or 64 cores.)

 

 

 

Holy (insane hardware videos), how does this post take up more than a phone screen, but on PC it's only a fraction of the screen size?? And, my phone is 1440p while the PC is 1080p.

[TyrealArchea]

I think I finally have my full build for Ryzen in mind. I already ordered the new case and have the gpu. So, here it is:

 

Ryzen 5 1600X

MSI AM4 320 mobo (No full names yet, but I new mATX)

16GB DDR4 2400 G.Skill Aegis RAM

EVGA GTX 980ti 6GB

ThermalTake Core V21 Case

[rjfaber91]

On ‎15‎-‎2‎-‎2017 at 2:58 PM, PianoPlayer88Key said:

For a board, I'd want one I can keep at least 7-10 years, possibly longer.  (I'd replace my case, PSU and board simultaneously, and not until sometime after my PSU's warranty expires.)  Also I want plenty of connectivity, like 10+ SATA, 2+ M.2, 5+ PCI-E x16 (some can be x8), 8 DIMM slots supporting 128 or 256 GB or more RAM.  (The PCI-E would be for expansion cards - adding things as I run out of existing ports, or adding features not originally integrated.)

 

Examples of existing (Intel) boards that come somewhat close to what I'd want would be the ASRock X99 WS (or WS-E), or EVGA X99 Classified.  (Neither of them are quite "perfect", though.)

Good luck with that. I've yet to see AM4 boards with more than 8 SATA ports and 3 PCIe x16 (wired for x8 or x16) slots, and the ones with more than one M.2 slot are rare as well. 8 DIMM slots is completely out of the question at the moment, as current Ryzen CPUs don't support quad-channel RAM. Of course, that's nothing that couldn't change in the future, but you might have to wait a while...

[PianoPlayer88Key]

1 hour ago, rjfaber91 said:

Good luck with that. I've yet to see AM4 boards with more than 8 SATA ports and 3 PCIe x16 (wired for x8 or x16) slots, and the ones with more than one M.2 slot are rare as well. 8 DIMM slots is completely out of the question at the moment, as current Ryzen CPUs don't support quad-channel RAM. Of course, that's nothing that couldn't change in the future, but you might have to wait a while...

Hmm...   I was hoping, if I switch, to get a board that would last / be upgradeable for a long time.  As I need features, I'd add them via expansion cards.  (Examples include newer connection standards like USB/NVMe, extra ports like SATA, etc.)

 

Existing Intel equivalents that come close to what I'd like on the AMD side, would be the variants of the Asus / ASRock X99-E WS or whatever they call them, or the Asus Z10PE-D16 WS.  Bonus points if there's ways to split up the PCI-E lanes in each slot - so I could wire in four x4 devices to a single x16 slot.  OTOH, maybe there comes a time when instead of having like 15 or 20 expansion cards, it's time to just buy a mobo that has all those ports/features built in?
 

I like to be able to upgrade to significantly better price/performance CPUs without having to change the motherboard.  Over a period of, say, 10 years, I'd want to upgrade maybe 2 or 3 times, to a CPU that's 4-5x better at the same or lower price from the previous step.  (Getting 1980s/1990s-like improvements would be really nice.)  The CPU bought the year the PSU warranty expires (say 10 years) should be the last one on the socket.

Then, maybe another 5 or 7 years later, get the equivalent of a same-generation Xeon E7 CPU for like $200 off ebay.  (Theoretically, for example, going from like an i7-4790K to like an 18-core E7 v3 clocked so it does 200 in cinebench single-threaded, & same GHz on all cores - when it drops to the prices that the E5-2650 (v1) are at now on ebay.)

 

I really dislike hate replacing motherboards frequently (prefer keeping them >7-10+ years or much longer), because of the labor that goes into swapping them out. You can't swap out a motherboard (and retain all other parts except what's not compatible, like new CPU sockets / DIMM slots) as quickly as you can swap out, say, a GTX 1050, or a stick of RAM assuming the CPU cooler isn't in the way, or a 3.5" HDD / 2.5" SSD in a toolless hot-swap bay.  Or have I just not learned how to do it?   And am I the only one who has a strong aversion to frequently replacing motherboards?

 

I'd prefer replacing the PSU, case, and motherboard all simultaneously.  They each seem to take quite a bit of labor to swap, so, I figure, may as well do it all at once, then do quick piecemeal upgrades over the next 10+ years.

 

 

I hear AM4 is only supposed to last 4 years or so.  It's better than how long my LGA1150 board (with my 4790K) remained relevant, but will AMD continue to push the IPC & threads per dollar improvements over the life of the platform?  

 

What are the biggest factors preventing being able to use the same CPU socket longer?  Main one I can think of is changing the DDR memory standard.  PCI Express is forward & backward compatible I believe, & if you have an old board without SATA/NVMe/Thunderbolt, or older/slower USB, can you add it with an expansion card?

 

 

As for the 4 DIMMs / 64 GB RAM limit issue ... What about using like a 250-500GB PCI-Express (or M.2 NVMe) SSD with high R/W random IOPS (like 250-500k or something) and high endurance (several hundreds of TB, if not into the PB range of writes, although I'm not considering enterprise drives like the Intel DC-P3608(!)), as a dedicated swap / scratch drive?  That's something I think I'd definitely consider if I was to keep my 4790K (and its 32GB max RAM) longer.

 

 

The only way I'd consider buying a new server platform at least now, is if I could get a flagship-caliber server (like a fully-loaded SuperMicro 7088B-TR4FT) for the price of a typical mainstream non-LGA20xx gaming desktop.  (Like one that pre-Ryzen, would score about 8-10K in regular FireStrike and ~650-850 in CineBench R15.)  Of course we know that won't happen, even with the "AMD Discount".

[TyrealArchea]

On 2/23/2017 at 5:40 AM, rjfaber91 said:

Good luck with that. I've yet to see AM4 boards with more than 8 SATA ports and 3 PCIe x16 (wired for x8 or x16) slots, and the ones with more than one M.2 slot are rare as well. 8 DIMM slots is completely out of the question at the moment, as current Ryzen CPUs don't support quad-channel RAM. Of course, that's nothing that couldn't change in the future, but you might have to wait a while...

The link below proves many of your points invalid....

https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007625&IsNodeId=1&bop=And&ActiveSearchResult=True&SrchInDesc=AM4&Page=1&PageSize=36&order=BESTMATCH

[rjfaber91]

1 hour ago, TyrealArchea said:

The link below proves many of your points invalid....

https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007625&IsNodeId=1&bop=And&ActiveSearchResult=True&SrchInDesc=AM4&Page=1&PageSize=36&order=BESTMATCH

Does it? The only point that I made and worded in terms of certainty was the lack of quad-channel RAM, and that holds up perfectly well. Motherboards with twin M.2 slots are a distinct minority as well, incidentally, even though I deliberately made that point in uncertain phrasing because I wasn't 100% sure.

[ian666]

Planning something more than just a graphics card and ssd?. Ryzen have in fact only x16 PCIE 3.0 slots distributed over one or two main 3.0 slots. It supports x16/x0 or x8/x8 @ 3.0. If u have NVMe PCIE drive u are preety much screwed, no x16/x4 @ 3.0 mode on any even most expensive motherboards.

 

U need to choose: slow down a bit your graphics card (x8/x8 mode) or put your NVMe drive in electricaly x4 @ 2.0 slot which will cap your transfers around 19xx MB/s and make your NVMe work more like SSD (alot more latency since 2.0 slot is connected to chipset :(.

 

I wanted to buy Ryzen platform but i also will be buying 1080Ti. On top of that i already have very good Intel 750 PCIE drive that i wont sell for sure just to get some M2 model with slower iops and heat issues. It would be very hard now to invest money in platform that maybe have great CPU, but will gimp my existing drive or my newest graphics card (not to mention next generations of cards with HBM2). PCIE 3.0 x8 will be just too slow for it. Jay tested GTX1080 in external TB case running at x4 and drop in framerate is huge. Putting some new Volta Titan with 2.5-3 times more power in x8 slot would probably result in same thing. This is terrible expectations vs reality thing.

 

If u dont belive it, check it yourself. Every top X370 motherboard got same issue:

 

1 x PCI Express x16 slot, running at x16 (PCIEX16)

 

1 x PCI Express x16 slot, running at x8 (PCIEX8)
* The PCIEX8 slot shares bandwidth with the PCIEX16 slot. When the PCIEX8 slot is populated, the PCIEX16 slot operates at up to x8 mode.

 

1 x PCI Express x16 slot, running at x4 (PCIEX4)
* The PCIEX4 and PCI Express x1 slots conform to PCI Express 2.0 standard

 

http://www.gigabyte.us/Motherboard/GA-AX370-Gaming-K7-rev-10#sp

 

I would really like someone to proove me wrong here, but looks like people with X99 and something more than graphics card, still have no real alternative atm.