Frequency Responses

[DutchTexan]

Which graph looks most attractive to you?

What are your end-game headphones?

 

[Guest Kloaked]

HD600/650s look more pleasing for extensive usage. Audeze's would be amaze but build quality/quality control is sketch and with what you're paying you shouldn't have to worry about that, so I wouldn't suggest those.

 

I would also like to add that the graphs will only tell you half the story. While the Innerfidelity measurements for the Fidelio X2 looked amazing for my taste at the time that I bought them, the low end frequencies were the main feature of them and it wasn't even all that pleasing compared to the HD650s that I have now. Just for example.

 

So I said that to say this: always try before you buy if you can. If not, then graphs and user experience would be your best bet.

 

My personal "end game" headphones would be whatever the planar version of the HD650s are, which is probably something from Audeze. But like I said before, Audeze is questionable with their price and lack of quality control.

[Guest]

I may do a more extensive write-up on the HD650 at some point, but basically it boils down to this:

 

The HD600/650 has exceptional coherence across the frequency range, better than just about any headphone. What that means is that there are no major peaks or dips and the transitions from bass to mids to highs are smooth and unobtrusive.

 

Now let me comment on FR graphs. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT base a purchase decision on what a graph LOOKS like. I did this with some of my early purchases (DT 880, HE-560) and it did not help. Correlating a graph to what you actually hear is extremely difficult unless you have a lot of experience; even then, it is challenging.

 

Ultimately, there is no substitute for getting a headphone on your head. If you are serious about an "end game" headphone, that is what you are going to need to do.

 

As for end-game headphones:

 

My verdict so far on planars is that they lack bass impact. I'm not sure if this is because they have no resonant frequency in the bass like dynamic drivers or what. But, I feel that the loss of impact is not adequately made up for by the gain in control and texture. So my end-game headphone would not be a planar.

 

There are also wide reports that the current crop of Audeze (Fazor version) headphons from the LCD-2 and LCD-3 lines are inferior to previous iterations. Lack of bass extension, poor quality control, lack of resolution, you name it. I would only consider one of these if resolution is not a concern; pair with a Lyr 2 and some cozy tubes if that's the kind of sound that you're interested in.

 

I've tried the Beyer T1 2. Gen. It was crap, especially for the money. It's a mid-fi headphone at best. Should be priced at $299. The HD 650 is better.

 

In case you haven't worked it out, the HD 650 is my endgame for now. Simply because it has few flaws and more importantly does what I care about with sound quality very well. My current goal is to build a decent system around the headphones to bring out their strengths.

[Guest Kloaked]

1 hour ago, SSL said:

My verdict so far on planars is that they lack bass impact. I'm not sure if this is because they have no resonant frequency in the bass like dynamic drivers or what. But, I feel that the loss of impact is not adequately made up for by the gain in control and texture. So my end-game headphone would not be a planar.

Hmm. If that's true I may never buy another pair of headphones then. The HD650s seem to be all I really want in a headphone thus far.

 

1 hour ago, SSL said:

I may do a more extensive write-up on the HD650 at some point

I was thinking about doing that when I got off work. Might go ahead and do it.

[spwath]

42 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

Hmm. If that's true I may never buy another pair of headphones then. The HD650s seem to be all I really want in a headphone thus far.

 

I was thinking about doing that when I got off work. Might go ahead and do it.

We should all do it. We have all relied the wonders of the HD650 (oh no, my z key is breaking now).

But mine is modded.

 

For now, I would say this is ideal. This is my modded HD650's I measured.

 

[Guest Kloaked]

2 minutes ago, spwath said:

(oh no, my z key is breaking now)

ayy le mayo

[spwath]

2 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

ayy le mayo

my 4, z, and a few other keys are breaking too. But I like my 1994 Apple Adjustable Keyboard.

[kokakolia]

The Sennheiser Momentum seems ideal to me.

 

The Beyerdynamic T1 makes me hiss like a vampire under sunlight. That treble spike is ugly...

[spwath]

1 minute ago, kokakolia said:

The Sennheiser Momentum seems ideal to me.

 

The Beyerdynamic T1 makes me like a vampire under sunlight. That treble spike is ugly...

That momentum measurement seems to dip down a lot in the treble.

But that T1 does have a piecing spike.

[kokakolia]

1 minute ago, spwath said:

That momentum measurement seems to dip down a lot in the treble.

But that T1 does have a piecing spike.

Yeah, if you'd listen to to my kind of music (Animal Collective obsessively) you'd appreciate less treble in your headphones. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Guest]

Momentum does not look well-balanced to me. Probably suffers from cupped-hands tonality, and IF measurements show a resonance in the upper-mids.

[DutchTexan]

4 hours ago, Kloaked said:

snip

I've kind of been lushing after the lcd-2's, but the build quality issues are starting to surfaced a few too many times now...  In the past day or two the lcd-2's have really been disappointing my emotional attachment. I think I will start a new relationship with the k812, maybe that will be my dream wife headphones after all.

 

The whole 'try before your buy' seems absolutely logical, but I have yet to find a nearby audio store with things worth my attention. There has to be some audiophile stores to visit somewhere in Houston(about an hour away atm) but I have yet to find something attractive. Pretty shocking, considering it's the 60th largest city in the world and the 4^th largest city in the United States. Every place I've been to or looked up on google maps seem to focus 99% on instruments and heavy duty, non selfish, audio equipment. Fuckers.

 

How do you feel about Hifiman? I read that apparently their 400I's are supposed to be like planar versions of the 600's/650's. I watched and read a few reviews on the HE-500's and from all that I can think I could like the 500's, but I havent been able to find them on Amazon? Also the 560's seem like an okay idea if they came down in price, a lot. Overall though, Hifiman kind of scares me(actually scares me alot) for the same thing you were talking about with Audeze. Build quality is right up there with comfort, for me.

 

 

3 hours ago, SSL said:

snip

As always, you make some great points, SSL. Thanks for the home-grown audio education. I've read about the fazor ordeal quite a bit. I still don't really understand it that well, to be honest. People seem very polarized on it, but overall from YouTube, it's hit and miss. I don't understand how adding, basically shelves, or little channels between your ears and the music could ever be a good thing. Then, the branding as 'exclusive technology' kind of puts me off.

 

The more I hear people talk about headphones in comparison to other headphones, the more I appreciate my HD600's. Although, it seems like people reference 650's more frequently. On the other hand, I have almost never heard anything negative about my 600's. The only two things that I don't like is 1) how dirty my pads look if I don't lint roll them every other week and 2) when I am turning or moving my head sometimes I get kind of a 'squeaky chair' sound from the earpads slightly moving on the earpieces of my glasses.

 

So, everything I don't like are just irrelevant, personal problems. Pretty great!

 

My gut feeling, after a few months of research, told me to buy the 600's as my first pair of decent headphones. I'm really glad I did. My gut feeling, after a few months of research, tells me to buy the modi multibit and vali 2 as my first, external DAC and Amp. 

 

@SSL What would be your perfect system built around HD650's? What do you think about making my own 4 pin xlr cable for my 600's and plugging them into a Jotunheim and modi multibit setup?

 

 

2 hours ago, spwath said:

modded HD650's I measured.

 

That's really interesting. Pretty neat too, I would love to measure my own 600's and see exactly how my particular pair compare to the HD600 graph I put in the OP.

 

How exactly did you mod your 650's? Did you do something more complicated than changing the earpads and/or cables?

 

[spwath]

2 minutes ago, DutchTexan said:

 

That's really interesting. Pretty neat too, I would love to measure my own 600's and see exactly how my particular pair compare to the HD600 graph I put in the OP.

 

How exactly did you mod your 650's? Did you do something more complicated than changing the earpads and/or cables?

 

Pretty simple (in fact the mod, KISS, stands for Keep it Simple Stupid)

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/hd650-kiss-mod.3440/

3 minutes ago, DutchTexan said:

 

How do you feel about Hifiman? I read that apparently their 400I's are supposed to be like planar versions of the 600's/650's. I watched and read a few reviews on the HE-500's and from all that I can think I could like the 500's, but I havent been able to find them on Amazon? Also the 560's seem like an okay idea if they came down in price, a lot. Overall though, Hifiman kind of scares me(actually scares me alot) for the same thing you were talking about with Audeze. Build quality is right up there with comfort, for me.

 

 

I have heard some bad things, and @SSL has had some semi-bad experience with hifiman.

Bad build quality, especially for the price.

And inflating the market with their $6000 flagships.

5 minutes ago, DutchTexan said:

 

 

@SSL What would be your perfect system built around HD650's? What do you think about making my own 4 pin xlr cable for my 600's and plugging them into a Jotunheim and modi multibit setup?

 

Jotunheim and modi multibit would be a nice pairing for the HD650, but check more here:

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/sennheiser-hd650-m-compendium.3188/

[Guest Kloaked]

8 minutes ago, DutchTexan said:

How do you feel about Hifiman? I read that apparently their 400I's are supposed to be like planar versions of the 600's/650's. I watched and read a few reviews on the HE-500's and from all that I can think I could like the 500's, but I havent been able to find them on Amazon? Also the 560's seem like an okay idea if they came down in price, a lot. Overall though, Hifiman kind of scares me(actually scares me alot) for the same thing you were talking about with Audeze. Build quality is right up there with comfort, for me.

If anything, from what I understand HiFiMan has just as bad if not worse QC and service - but just to add to that and what I've said previously in this thread, your mileage may vary just like with everything else. Just don't be surprised to get a POS lemon if you get something from HiFiMan or Audeze. If both of them had good QC and service, I would have bought either the 400i myself or splurged on those EL-8 headphones without second guessing.

 

I just think if you're going to spend that much on fucking headphones, you should be able to get no-questions-asked service if something is wrong, or be able to expect a 100% working unit when you order.

 

Schiit has similar problems according to /r/headphones but it's not nearly as bad as HiFiMan and Audeze from what I understand. Plus, Schiit doesn't make headphones, just headphone amps and other Schiit.

 

Even though I haven't tried the 400i or something from Audeze yet - I plan to next time I'm in Atlanta, or I might when I'm in Austin next month - I would be more than comfortable recommending the HD600 or HD650 for you. Buuuuut, I would like to know what music you listen to first.

[Guest Kloaked]

15 minutes ago, spwath said:

 

Looking through that mod thread you linked, I somehow ended up on Reddit with some guy who painted his HD650 matte black and green.

 

 

I think I know what I'm doing this weekend.

[spwath]

2 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

Looking through that mod thread you linked, I somehow ended up on Reddit with some guy who painted his HD650 matte black and green.

 

 

 

I think I know what I'm doing this weekend.

Hmmm... I'm tempted to try something like that. Painting just the grills would be pretty simple.

I kinda want to get HD 580 grills, I think they look cooler.

[Guest Kloaked]

6 minutes ago, spwath said:

Hmmm... I'm tempted to try something like that. Painting just the grills would be pretty simple.

I kinda want to get HD 580 grills, I think they look cooler.

Agreed.

[DutchTexan]

7 minutes ago, spwath said:

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/hd650-kiss-mod.3440/

 

 

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/sennheiser-hd650-m-compendium.3188/

Very interesting, I'll read over it here in a second. Is that your forum post? 

 

That seems to be the trend with Hifiman. 

 

Forgive me, haha but I didn't immediately recognize anything on that second link... is there another forum post discussing amp/dac combinations with the 650 somewhere on there? 650 mods should be pretty much the same for 600's right? 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

going to spend that much ... you should be able to get no-questions-asked service if something is wrong, or be able to expect a 100% working unit when you order.

I mean, that only makes sense. Unfortunately, sooo many 'high end' companies still haven't figured it out. The best example would be Ferrari. You spend of $400k on a nicely optioned 488 and you're still not entitled to a car that works 100%.  

 

 

18 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

Schiit is the shit tho

 

I would be more than comfortable recommending the HD600 or HD650 for you. Buuuuut, I would like to know what music you listen to first.

I already own 600's. So, I guess I will never own 650's unless my 600's break or die somehow. That's the elephant in the room. My library is relatively new to foobar2000. I have around 300 tracks atm. I'm looking for more hi-res stuff, almost all of it is CD quality outside of samples and classic music.

 

I really don't know what I listen to. I just have random music that I don't want to delete. I ripped a bunch of old CD's I had and it's just all over the place. I've found some 'free' hi-res audio downloads on the internet. Most of that is symphony/instrumental and I like it a lot now. I also listen to what is easiest to describe as mediation music. God is great, beer is good and people are crazy. Country music, because Texas. I have a bunch of Afrikaans music too that I'm actually listening to now. I love the old stuff from way before I was born. I listen to just about anything other than rap and modern pop.

 

Generally, I don't know where to get music. Streaming is something I'm not interested in. Guess I'll just have to buy things I like in hi-res from like www.hdtracks.com or something? 

[spwath]

1 minute ago, DutchTexan said:

Very interesting, I'll read over it here in a second. Is that your forum post? 

 

That seems to be the trend with Hifiman. 

 

Forgive me, haha but I didn't immediately recognize anything on that second link... is there another forum post discussing amp/dac combinations with the 650 somewhere on there? 650 mods should be pretty much the same for 600's right? 

 

 

I mean, that only makes sense. Unfortunately, sooo many 'high end' companies still haven't figured it out. The best example would be Ferrari. You spend of $400k on a nicely optioned 488 and you're still not entitled to a car that works 100%.  

 

 

I already own 600's. So, I guess I will never own 650's unless my 600's break or die somehow. That's the elephant in the room. My library is relatively new to foobar2000. I have around 300 tracks atm. I'm looking for more hi-res stuff, almost all of it is CD quality outside of samples and classic music.

 

I really don't know what I listen to. I just have random music that I don't want to delete. I ripped a bunch of old CD's I had and it's just all over the place. I've found some 'free' hi-res audio downloads on the internet. Most of that is symphony/instrumental and I like it a lot now. I also listen to what is easiest to describe as mediation music. God is great, beer is good and people are crazy. Country music, because Texas. I have a bunch of Afrikaans music too that I'm actually listening to now. I love the old stuff from way before I was born. I listen to just about anything other than rap and modern pop.

 

Generally, I don't know where to get music. Streaming is something I'm not interested in. Guess I'll just have to buy things I like in hi-res from like www.hdtracks.com or something? 

No, its from the person who created the mod.

 

This post talks about amplification http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/sennheiser-hd650-m-compendium.3188/#post-94646

 

[DutchTexan]

2 minutes ago, spwath said:

No, its from the person who created the mod.

 

This post talks about amplification http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/sennheiser-hd650-m-compendium.3188/#post-94646

 

Thanks! I feel so lost in other forums...

[spwath]

1 minute ago, DutchTexan said:

Thanks! I feel so lost in other forums...

Yeah, me too. I'm used to that and this forum. Other forums I'm confused.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, DutchTexan said:

How do you feel about Hifiman? I read that apparently their 400I's are supposed to be like planar versions of the 600's/650's. I watched and read a few reviews on the HE-500's and from all that I can think I could like the 500's, but I havent been able to find them on Amazon? Also the 560's seem like an okay idea if they came down in price, a lot. Overall though, Hifiman kind of scares me(actually scares me alot) for the same thing you were talking about with Audeze. Build quality is right up there with comfort, for me.

 

HiFiMan has been the center of some drama recently.

 

First, they were caught buying Amazon reviews. They are/were contacting people offering to give them free merchandise in exchange for a 5-star review. Not completely unheard of, but still shows that Hifiman is more concerned about image than customer service.

 

Next, the big blow-up over their announcement of a $6000 planar flagship, with founder and CEO Fang himself wading into the head-fi thread before it was nuked by the mods. Again, there's a general impression that Hifiman doesn't care about customers. Some of this is probably due to cultural differences, but either way it makes them hard to want to deal with.

 

My experience with them has been mixed. My first HE-560 had to be replaced because one of the SMC connectors was defective. The headphone is pretty competent when working, but I ultimately couldn't get over the upper-mid fuckery.

 

1 hour ago, DutchTexan said:

What would be your perfect system built around HD650's? What do you think about making my own 4 pin xlr cable for my 600's and plugging them into a Jotunheim and modi multibit setup?

 

I'm still researching that. Jotunheim + Modi MB or Bifrost MB is an option on the table. The thing that scares me is the reports that the Jotunheim has weird soundstage, plug aggressive upper mids. Sounds like a nasty combination.

 

More recently I've been leaning towards Valhalla. I'm interested to try an all-tube amp, and this one is supposed to pair well with the HD 600/650, bringing out strengths like resolution and soundstage. As I suggested to you above, I'll probably have to try a few things before I can zero in on the final setup. I'm also taking things slow because Schiit supposedly has over a dozen products in the pipeline for 2017 and the Bifrost is due for an update.

[spwath]

9 minutes ago, SSL said:

 

HiFiMan has been the center of some drama recently.

 

First, they were caught buying Amazon reviews. They are/were contacting people offering to give them free merchandise in exchange for a 5-star review. Not completely unheard of, but still shows that Hifiman is more concerned about image than customer service.

 

Next, the big blow-up over their announcement of a $6000 planar flagship, with founder and CEO Fang himself wading into the head-fi thread before it was nuked by the mods. Again, there's a general impression that Hifiman doesn't care about customers. Some of this is probably due to cultural differences, but either way it makes them hard to want to deal with.

 

My experience with them has been mixed. My first HE-560 had to be replaced because one of the SMC connectors was defective. The headphone is pretty competent when working, but I ultimately couldn't get over the upper-mid fuckery.

 

 

I'm still researching that. Jotunheim + Modi MB or Bifrost MB is an option on the table. The thing that scares me is the reports that the Jotunheim has weird soundstage, plug aggressive upper mids. Sounds like a nasty combination.

 

More recently I've been leaning towards Valhalla. I'm interested to try an all-tube amp, and this one is supposed to pair well with the HD 600/650, bringing out strengths like resolution and soundstage. As I suggested to you above, I'll probably have to try a few things before I can zero in on the final setup. I'm also taking things slow because Schiit supposedly has over a dozen products in the pipeline for 2017 and the Bifrost is due for an update.

Don't forget Fang comparing himself getting attacked on headfi to the Chinese cultural revolution.

 

 

Ill have to take it slow on upgrades too, mainly because I have no money and am going to college with a lack of space.

[DutchTexan]

2 minutes ago, SSL said:

-snip-

That's how it seems to go with Hifiman, as far as I can tell. People either hate them or have excuses for liking them. Kind of sketchy. I really don't like that Asian fucker from hifi.org. He seems like someone who would know an evil to absolute deepest detail and then still be totally cool with encouraging it. He's just a shrill with a good vocabulary, in my eyes.

 

 

5 minutes ago, SSL said:

I'm still researching that. Jotunheim + Modi MB or Bifrost MB is an option on the table.

 

... reports that the Jotunheim has weird soundstage, plug aggressive upper mids. Sounds like a nasty combination.

 

More recently I've been leaning towards Valhalla. I'm interested to try an all-tube amp, and this one is supposed to pair well with the HD 600/650, bringing out strengths like resolution and soundstage

 

... taking things slow because Schiit supposedly has over a dozen products in the pipeline for 2017 

Man, now you are going to have me waiting too. I've been looking into when the Vali 1 and Vali 2 was released. These dates are leading me to believe that there will be a Vali 3 soon. I'll have to look into what Schiit did at CES, if anything.

 

Hopefully they release a new amp with a 4 pin xlr port. I've been preparing myself to solder a new cable for my 600's. 

 

I'm pretty much set on the modi multibit as my first dac. They would need to do something really convincing to get me away from that DAC purchase.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, DutchTexan said:

Man, now you are going to have me waiting too. I've been looking into when the Vali 1 and Vali 2 was released. These dates are leading me to believe that there will be a Vali 3 soon. I'll have to look into what Schiit did at CES, if anything.

 

Hopefully they release a new amp with a 4 pin xlr port. I've been preparing myself to solder a new cable for my 600's. 

 

I'm pretty much set on the modi multibit as my first dac. They would need to do something really convincing to get me away from that DAC purchase.

 

I don't think you can go wrong with the Modi MB. I don't believe Schiit released anything at CES, but Jason Stoddard has come out and said they have a bunch of products slated for this year. I really doubt that these will include revisions to their current gen 2 amp lineup, so if you are interested in the Jotunheim or Vali 2, it's probably safe to go for them as well. I expect a number of the new items will be 2-channel gear (for speakers) and won't affect the personal audio lineup.