Question about receiver crossover settings.

[Ferrera]

Howdy,

 

I was checking every setting on my Onkyo receiver and I came across the Crossover Frequency setting, where I have to put a frequency on each speaker.

These were the settings that were automatically implemented after the AccuEQ room calibration (5.1.2 Atmos setup):

Front: 80Hz
Centre: 40Hz
Surround: 70Hz
Height (Atmos): 200Hz
LPF or LFE: 120Hz

Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR555

Now here are the speaker specs (Front and surround speakers are the same):

Front and surround speakers: Frequency Response (+-3dB): 100Hz - 22kHz
Centre speaker: Frequency Response (+-3dB): 80Hz - 22kHz
Height Atmos speakers: Frequency Response (+-3dB): 90Hz - 20kHz
Subwoofer: Frequency Response (+-3dB): 40Hz - 200Hz  (crossover range 40Hz - 150Hz (adjustable))

A link to the full speaker specs: DX-1SE | Wharfedale Hi-Fi

And the Atmos height speakers: Onkyo SKH-410 Specs

How do I know the best frequency to implement? Do I just put the values mentioned above like 100Hz for front and surround? I also read that the Atmos speakers should be set at 200Hz so I guess I'll stick to that.


Thanks in advance.

[.spider.]

All crossover frequencies look reasonable except for the height speakers but I don't know if that's a atmos requirement.

 

Also make sure that you set the crossover frequency on the back of the subwoofer to the highest possible.

 

The LPF of the LFE should always be set to 120Hz

[johnt]

23 hours ago, Ferrera said:

-snip-

It seems like your mic is picking up some reflections or miscalculating the low frequency extensions. You shouldn't be sending 40 Hz to your center speaker when it is specified to operate at 80 Hz and above. Similarly with your front speakers.

 

It is very common that room calibration tools misjudge bass extension because the included microphones are not really designed to capture bass. The automated room calibration is a band aid. You still need to lift the band aid and making sure it's all working properly after the process.

 

In your case, the calibration has improperly set the cross over frequency. Judging by the information you provided, the cross over frequency should be set to 100 Hz for all speakers. Different cross over frequencies for each speaker has never proven useful in my experience and research. Your subwoofer should be physically set to the maximum frequency because your receiver is processing the signal. The LPF is a silly feature and should be set to the highest frequency possible. The LPF has no bearing on the cross over frequency.

[.spider.]

11 minutes ago, JohnT said:

You shouldn't be sending 40 Hz to your center speaker when it is specified to operate at 80 Hz and above. Similarly with your front speakers.

It is just the frequency response of the speaker which is measured in free field.

The frequency response can easily reach down to 40Hz in a room.

 

I would not set the LPF to the maximum since the LFE only contains frequencies up to 120Hz for Dolby Digital and some mixes could rely on the default LPF.

[johnt]

7 minutes ago, .spider. said:

It is just the frequency response of the speaker which is measured in free field.

The frequency response can easily reach down to 40Hz in a room.

 

I would not set the LPF to the maximum since the LFE only contains frequencies up to 120Hz for Dolby Digital and some mixes could rely on the default LPF.

Room extension is not the same thing as the capacity of the speaker to reproduce a frequency. If the manufacturer says "this speaker cannot produce anything less than 80 Hz," then more likely the speaker's internal crossover is designed to filter out anything below 80 Hz, regardless of what the room is doing to the wave. Thus anything below 80 Hz should ideally be redirected to the subwoofer for the channel set to that particular speaker. I recommended (as many others in the AV world do) that the OP only uses one cross over frequency for all of his speakers. In his case, 100 Hz is ideal.

 

I'm not clear on your second statement. What do you mean "some mixes could rely on the default LPF"? The LPF is a filter processed by the receiver. This information is never sent back to the source equipment and relied upon by any mix. It simply sets the maximum frequency sent to the subwoofer only for the LFE track. Typically 120 or 150 Hz is the maximum this can be set to, but it's really just a basic low pass filter, so it only lets frequencies below the set frequency to pass (for emphasis... only for the LFE track). Why this is even an option in receivers is questionable at best.

[.spider.]

41 minutes ago, JohnT said:

If the manufacturer says "this speaker cannot produce anything less than 80 Hz," then more likely the speaker's internal crossover is designed to filter out anything below 80 Hz, regardless of what the room is doing to the wave. 

 

I'm not clear on your second statement. What do you mean "some mixes could rely on the default LPF"? The LPF is a filter processed by the receiver. This information is never sent back to the source equipment and relied upon by any mix. It simply sets the maximum frequency sent to the subwoofer only for the LFE track. Typically 120 or 150 Hz is the maximum this can be set to, but it's really just a basic low pass filter, so it only lets frequencies below the set frequency to pass (for emphasis... only for the LFE track). Why this is even an option in receivers is questionable at best.

The manufacturer doesn't say "this speaker cannot produce anything less than 80 Hz" And there's clearly no internal high pass filter if the speaker is measured with 40Hz

 

I know what a LPF is and there's no point to set it to something other than 120Hz because the LFE should never contain higher frequencies.

But if the LFE contains higher frequencies (error during mixing) these higher frequencies will be cut away, at least a bit.

[johnt]

15 minutes ago, .spider. said:

The manufacturer doesn't say "this speaker cannot produce anything less than 80 Hz" And there's clearly no internal high pass filter if the speaker is measured with 40Hz

Faulty mic, uncalibrated mic in frequency range, room extension, speaker placement can affect frequency measurements

 

There are many ways 80 Hz can be measured as 40 Hz. If the manufacturer says 80 Hz is the lowest expected frequency their speaker can reliably output, then you should be very concerned where 40 Hz is coming from because it's not coming from the speaker. That is one full octave below 80 Hz. Why would a manufacturer underestimate their product by that much?

[.spider.]

18 minutes ago, JohnT said:

 If the manufacturer says 80 Hz is the lowest expected frequency their speaker can reliably output, 

Where do they say that?

If the speaker is capable of 80Hz @ -3dB it can be capable of 40Hz @ ~-15dB

 

Close wall loudspeaker positioning and listening can easily increase the frequency response by 10dB on the low end.

 

[johnt]

2 hours ago, .spider. said:

Where do they say that?

If the speaker is capable of 80Hz @ -3dB it can be capable of 40Hz @ ~-15dB

 

Close wall loudspeaker positioning and listening can easily increase the frequency response by 10dB on the low end.

 

I do agree with most of what you are saying, but a "well placed" speaker is not going to go from 80 Hz to 40 Hz +15 dB at average 75 dB for calibration. Especially in this case because it is the center channel we are discussing. If you look closer into the OP's equipment, you can find that his center channel is semi-open with rear port and dual 3-inch woofers. Hmm... 40 Hz? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm................ It's a bit far fetched.

 

I would be inclined to be convinced by your argument if I had limited experience with home theater audio equipment. The cross over is the #1 problem of nearly all receivers. Auto calibration process rarely sets the cross over correctly. I suspect it is the cheapo microphones.

[Ferrera]

Well, going a bit off topic, something that's been bugging me lately...

 

I was watching Suicide Squad earlier on with Atmos enabled and I noticed that this happens on almost all movies, the songs that play in the movie, either instrumental or mainstream music, can be played on a specific zone, for example:

Music A: Song starts playing in the background while a fight starts, speakers that are being used to play the song: front left, centre, surround left, and a bit of front right.

Music B: Same situation, but this time the song is affecting all speakers, full surround song, all sounds are equal for all speakers.

Music C: Instrumental song: drums on front left, high hats on front right, voice in centre and front right.

Just wondering if example A and C are normal, as they happen quite often. Makes me wonder if the sound volume levels are not equal.

[.spider.]

19 hours ago, JohnT said:

The cross over is the #1 problem of nearly all receivers. 

My experience is the opposite crossover is mostly the by far best determined metric.

[Stagea]

On 1/2/2017 at 11:20 AM, Ferrera said:

Howdy,

 

I was checking every setting on my Onkyo receiver and I came across the Crossover Frequency setting, where I have to put a frequency on each speaker.

These were the settings that were automatically implemented after the AccuEQ room calibration (5.1.2 Atmos setup):

Front: 80Hz
Centre: 40Hz
Surround: 70Hz
Height (Atmos): 200Hz
LPF or LFE: 120Hz

Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR555

Now here are the speaker specs (Front and surround speakers are the same):

Front and surround speakers: Frequency Response (+-3dB): 100Hz - 22kHz
Centre speaker: Frequency Response (+-3dB): 80Hz - 22kHz
Height Atmos speakers: Frequency Response (+-3dB): 90Hz - 20kHz
Subwoofer: Frequency Response (+-3dB): 40Hz - 200Hz  (crossover range 40Hz - 150Hz (adjustable))

A link to the full speaker specs: DX-1SE | Wharfedale Hi-Fi

And the Atmos height speakers: Onkyo SKH-410 Specs

How do I know the best frequency to implement? Do I just put the values mentioned above like 100Hz for front and surround? I also read that the Atmos speakers should be set at 200Hz so I guess I'll stick to that.


Thanks in advance.

Those are sealed satellites. Run a HPF that is at least 80 Hz to prevent mechanical damage over time. In most cases 100 - 120 Hz (sometimes even higher) may actually be where you'd want to be (the louder you play and the larger the room, the higher you should set this). Do note that the sub will be easier to localize as you increase the crossover frequency, so you may want to put it in front in this scenario.