Suggestions and help for my Air 540 fan setup?

[redness]

All the fans will be a Corsair Quiet Edition with the appropriate sizes.

 

Which fans should be SP and which should be AF? I'm not exactly sure of the difference myself even after researching so please don't call me names.

Is my exhaust and intake plans alright or should I make the top fans intake as well?

[YubinTheBunny]

SP Stands for static pressure and AF stands for Air flow. The differences between the fans are that SP fans are used when the airflow is obstructed eg. radiator and AF fans are used when it's an open-air enviroment. The setup in the picture you have is correct and because the fans are not being blocked by a radiator and a HDD cage. I suggest getting AF fans. Also, try to get 140mm fans for the intake if you can as you can run them at lower RPM and push just as much air as an 120mm and will be quieter. And if you can control the RPM of the fans I would run the Exhaust fans just a little slower then the intake to try to get neutral air pressure in the case.

[redness]

16 minutes ago, YubinTheBunny said:

SP Stands for static pressure and AF stands for Air flow. The differences between the fans are that SP fans are used when the airflow is obstructed eg. radiator and AF fans are used when it's an open-air enviroment. The setup in the picture you have is correct and because the fans are not being blocked by a radiator and a HDD cage. I suggest getting AF fans. Also, try to get 140mm fans for the intake if you can as you can run them at lower RPM and push just as much air as an 120mm and will be quieter. And if you can control the RPM of the fans I would run the Exhaust fans just a little slower then the intake to try to get neutral air pressure in the case.

I should have put it in the image but what if I told you to the right of the blue boxes there's a dust filter mesh in the way of the fans? Would you still recommend AF's for the blue boxes?

 

How does one control the RPM of these fans? My motherboard is very old so I feel like I won't be able to. Is it a bad idea to not have control of the fan speeds?

[YubinTheBunny]

I would still recommend using AF fans for the in take if you can.  But if you want to you can use SP fans so in case in the future if you need high pressure fans you can just use those instead. Of course, static pressure fans are also louder as they are forcing air through. If you think you'll never have to use SP fans then just go with AF, as they will move more air.  And in terms of fan controlling you can maybe try speed fan if your bios have no way of setting them up. Jay two cents made a nice tutorial on how to set it up. 

 

[ThomasD]

1 hour ago, YubinTheBunny said:

... Of course, static pressure fans are also louder as they are forcing air through...

That is commonly true.  But the reverse observation is that AF fans are quieter because they are generating less air movement.

 

Meaning, they aren't doing much of anything other than spinning in place.

 

My recommendation for the Air 540 is 3 x120 up front with a good SP rating.  If you are set on Corsair that would mean the SP120 Performance Edition.  Yes they are loud at full speed, but you can always dial them down.  The Quiet Edition simply do not move enough air volume to be worth much of anything.

 

But there really are better options in the same price range - Cougar Vortex, Bitfenix Spectre Pro, Phanteks 120XP or 120 SP....

 

The exhausts, being essentially unrestricted are perfectly suited for AF type fans.

[WoodenMarker]

2 hours ago, ThomasD said:

That is commonly true.  But the reverse observation is that AF fans are quieter because they are generating less air movement.

My recommendation for the Air 540 is 3 x120 up front with a good SP rating.  If you are set on Corsair that would mean the SP120 Performance Edition.  Yes they are loud at full speed, but you can always dial them down.  The Quiet Edition simply do not move enough air volume to be worth much of anything. 

Performance Editions are loud and not worth getting if there's any care about noise. They are worse than Quiet Editions which are quieter while performing the same. 

AF120's also perform better than SP120's at the same noise level in most scenarios. http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1342-page9.html

The SP120s static pressure only pulls ahead in highly restrictive situations like on a rad or dense heatsink. 

[ThomasD]

26 minutes ago, WoodenMarker said:

...They are worse than Quiet Editions which are quieter while performing the same. 

Do you have any actual data, or is that just a personal observation?  Because the QEs are only rated at about 37 CFM at max speed.  That's a little more than half of the PEs.

 

Frankly, I've never taken them apart but I suspect if you disassembled one of each you'd find that the QE is just a PE with a pull down resistor added.  Meaning that you can get QE like performance from the PE, but never vice versa.

[WoodenMarker]

1 minute ago, ThomasD said:

Do you have any actual data, or is that just a personal observation?  Because the QEs are only rated at about 37 CFM at max speed.

Look at the link I posted.

[ThomasD]

4 minutes ago, WoodenMarker said:

Look at the link I posted.

I did, it has nothing on air volume for the listed fans and does not even include the 120 SP PEs.

[WoodenMarker]

6 minutes ago, ThomasD said:

I did, it has nothing on air volume for the listed fans and does not even include the 120 SP PEs.

Air volume doesn't matter when temps and noise levels are the actual results.

It shows the QE's performing as well as PE's while being quieter. If they're just fans with resistors as you've guessed, then it should be the same but they're not. QE's are better fans. I've used them and those with sensitive hearing can tell that QE's are quieter when they are giving the same cooling performance. 

SP120 PE's aren't in the list because they're known as loud fans and aren't in the running for anyone who cares about noise. 

[MrTiC]

I went 3x af120 front, 2x af140 top and 1SP140 exhaust 

And the reason i went SP on the back is that the fan almost hits the heatsink of my cpu cooler (CM V8 GTS wich has 2x140 fans too)

[ThomasD]

10 minutes ago, WoodenMarker said:

Air volume doesn't matter when temps and noise levels are the actual results.

It shows the QE's performing as well as PE's while being quieter. If they're just fans with resistors as you've guessed, then it should be the same but they're not. QE's are better fans. I've used them and those with sensitive hearing can tell that QE's are quieter while giving the same performance. 

SP120 PE's aren't in the list because they're known as loud fans and aren't in the running for anyone who cares about noise. 

You still cannot cite something that does not even mention one of the fans you dismiss.  No comparison means no basis for comparison.

 

Beyond that when you look at the numbers for each of the Corsairs listed at each fans speed levels are within about 3 dB of each other - meaning no reliably detectable difference between them.  

 

And when reading the text of the article he talks about wholly subjective issued of "pleasing" versus "rougher" tonal characteristics of audible sounds.  The key points there being 'audible' and 'entirely subjective.'

 

Which is all fine and dandy.  

 

Now look at this page

 

http://www.corsair.com/en-us/air-series-sp120-high-performance-edition-high-static-pressure-120mm-fan

 

and tell me that if you were to operate the 120 SP PE at 1450 RPM that it would not behave exactly like a 120 SP QE.  

[WoodenMarker]

8 minutes ago, ThomasD said:

Beyond that when you look at the numbers for each of the Corsairs listed at each fans speed levels are within about 3 dB of each other - meaning no reliably detectable difference between them.  

Now look at this page

http://www.corsair.com/en-us/air-series-sp120-high-performance-edition-high-static-pressure-120mm-fan

and tell me that if you were to operate the 120 SP PE at 1450 RPM that it would not behave exactly like a 120 SP QE.  

3 dBA is a significant difference for anyone who wants a quiet system. SPCR describes their testing methodology which is pretty reliable..

Look at the comparison between the AF120 QE and PE. The AF120 gives the same performance and at a lower noise. Why would that not apply to the SP120?

The SP120 PE would perform the same as a SP120 QE at the same rpm but be louder. 

[ThomasD]

1 minute ago, WoodenMarker said:

 

The SP120 PE would perform the same as a SP120 QE at the same rpm but be louder. 

You really think that?  Why?  What sort of difference would cause that change in sound production?  Are the blades different - I don't think so.  Are the frames different?  Again, I don't  think so.

 

And if the blades and frames are not different then when run at any given RPM both versions will move the same amount of air.  The same amount of air movement would then also result in the same amount of noise production.

 

I don't know whether you really do not get this, or just don't want to get it, but the Corsair SP 120 fans are essentially identical.  The QE  version is nothing more than a marketing gimmick for the silent computing crowd.

 

It is an SP 120 PE with a built in low noise adapter (a dropping resistor.)  The same sort of device that Noctua includes as an accessory they have permanently installed within the fan.  

 

Get the PE and you have the option of either worlds.  Get the QE and you are stuck with just one.

 

 

[WoodenMarker]

1 minute ago, ThomasD said:

You really think that?  Why?  What sort of difference would cause that change in sound production?  Are the blades different - I don't think so.  Are the frames different?  Again, I don't  think so.

I don't know whether you really do not get this, or just don't want to get it, but the Corsair SP 120 fans are essentially identical.  The QE  version is nothing more than a marketing gimmick for the silent computing crowd.

It is an SP 120 PE with a built in low noise adapter (a dropping resistor.)  The same sort of device that Noctua includes as an accessory they have permanently installed within the fan.  

Get the PE and you have the option of either worlds.  Get the QE and you are stuck with just one.

QE's has been consistently quieter from my experience and others have said the same. 

Do they sound the same to you?

If QE's are just a marketing gimmick, why do they perform the same while being quieter from SPCR's tests?

Source for SP120's using a dropping resistor?

PE's don't have the same lower limit for noise as QE's. If they do for you, your method of fan control is too limited. 

[ThomasD]

11 minutes ago, WoodenMarker said:

If QE's are just a marketing gimmick, why do they perform the same while being quieter from SPCR's tests?...

... PE's don't have the same lower limit for noise as QE's ...

Perform the same as what?  Quieter than what?

 

You keep citing that link, but their review did not include the SP 120 Performance Edition.  

 

Maybe if it had then we would have direct dB comparisons at specific RPMs.  But they didn't do that so we don't have that comparison.

 

Yet you persist as if the information somehow exists.  It doesn't.

 

And I'm not clear where you are getting any data on 'lower noise limit' either.  Since the SPR review did not include the SP 120 Performance Edition.  

 

As far as how I know why there is a dropping resistor in the QE version?

 

Common sense.  

 

The two versions are physically identical.  At that point the only way to make them behave differently when fed the same voltage would be to either use different motors or modify (ie. drop) the source voltage internally.  From a design and production standpoint it is much easier to add a resistor than to produce/source two different motors.  

 

Look at Corsair's data.  Look at RPMs and current consumption, then compare them to air volume and noise levels. Then go over to Noctua and compare the data they give for some 120 mm fans.  They provide data for with and without the low noise adapter (aka a series resistor.)

 

I think you will see a very similar pattern. 

[WoodenMarker]

8 minutes ago, ThomasD said:

Perform the same as what?  Quieter than what?

And I'm not clear where you are getting any data on 'lower noise limit' either.  Since the SPR review did not include the SP 120 Performance Edition.  

As far as how I know why there is a dropping resistor in the QE version?

Common sense.  

The two versions are physically identical.  At that point the only way to make them behave differently when fed the same voltage would be to either use different motors or modify (ie. drop) the source voltage internally.  From a design and production standpoint it is much easier to add a resistor than to produce/source two different motors.  

Look at Corsair's data.  Look at RPMs and current consumption, then compare them to air volume and noise levels. Then go over to Noctua and compare the data they give for some 120 mm fans.  They provide data for with and without the low noise adapter (aka a series resistor.)

I think you will see a very similar pattern. 

We've been comparing QE's and PE's for the past few posts..

I've had AF120 and SP120's in both QE's and PE's. They both take a certain amount of voltage to start up and QE's have a lower starting rpm than PE's. If there was just an inline resistor, they should have the same starting rpm.

According to you, same rpm should mean same noise, right? 

A question you missed: Do QE's and PE's sound the same to you at the same rpm? From my experience, PE's are louder. 

You're suggesting that they 'should' be the same and it seems like speculation on your part when you say 'common sense'. 

[ThomasD]

4 minutes ago, WoodenMarker said:

We've been comparing QE's and PE's for the past few posts..

I've had AF120 and SP120's in both QE's and PE's. They both take a certain amount of voltage to start up and QE's have a lower starting rpm than PE's. If there was just an inline resistor, they should have the same starting rpm.

According to you, same rpm should mean same noise, right? 

A question you missed: Do QE's and PE's sound the same to you at the same rpm? From my experience, PE's are louder. 

You're suggesting that they 'should' be the same and it seems like speculation on your part when you say 'common sense'. 

Where are you getting the information on the different starting voltages?

 

I've avoided citing my experience because a) it's totally subjective and b) it is limited to the PE version.   But since you insist - I've found that when run at about 1200 RPMs the PE version ceases to be audible to me in my son's Thermaltake V51 case.  Below that I have to look to see if they are spinning, above that I can hear them spinning (Not that that means a whole lot.)  And I'm quite sure at max speed the PEs are a lot louder than the QEs at max speed.

 

So, you think the PEs and QEs really do have a different motor?  It certainly is possible, I just seriously doubt.

[WoodenMarker]

3 minutes ago, ThomasD said:

Where are you getting the information on the different starting voltages?

I've avoided citing my experience because a) it's totally subjective and b) it is limited to the PE version.   But since you insist - I've found that when run at about 1200 RPMs the PE version ceases to be audible to me in my son's Thermaltake V51 case.  Below that I have to look to see if they are spinning, above that I can hear them spinning (Not that that means a whole lot.)  And I'm quite sure at max speed the PEs are a lot louder than the QEs at max speed.

So, you think the PEs and QEs really do have a different motor?  It certainly is possible, I just seriously doubt.

I said they have different starting rpm.

If they're inaudible to you at 1200rpm, you either have a loud environment or bad hearing. There are plenty of people who say QE's at 1000rpm are loud. I personally find them just bearable at 400rpm and I run my noctuas at ~90rpm. 

I don't know what the difference is inside but QE's are quieter. 

[ThomasD]

2 minutes ago, WoodenMarker said:

I said they have different starting rpm.

If they're inaudible to you at 1200rpm, you either have a loud environment or bad hearing. There are plenty of people who say QE's at 1000rpm are loud. I personally find them just bearable at 400rpm and I run my noctuas at ~90rpm. 

I don't know what the difference is inside but QE's are quieter. 

See, that's exactly why I chose not to use personal anecdote.  It's not only worthless, it also leads to baseless personal speculation and whole lot of pointless subjective opinion.

 

My hearing is fine.  But if you are trying to tell  me that you can hear sound differences within the sub 20 dB range the only way I'll believe that is if you also tell me you live in a sound dampened recording studio.  Either that or the chassis is less than two feet from your ear.  My son's is a shelf below the desktop.   

 

Ultimately you simply have no valid data to support your belief that the Performance Editions are "worse" than the quiet editions.  Which is fine, as far as opinion goes. But that is all it is.

[WoodenMarker]

8 minutes ago, ThomasD said:

See, that's exactly why I chose not to use personal anecdote.  It's not only worthless, it also leads to baseless personal speculation and whole lot of pointless subjective opinion.

My hearing is fine.  But if you are trying to tell  me that you can hear sound differences within the sub 20 dB range the only way I'll believe that is if you also tell me you live in a sound dampened recording studio.  Either that or the chassis is less than two feet from your ear.  My son's is a shelf below the desktop.   

Ultimately you simply have no valid data to support your belief that the Performance Editions are "worse" than the quiet editions.  Which is fine, as far as opinion goes. But that is all it is.

There isn't a standardized method of measuring for fan specs and they should be ignored. Look at benchmarks and reviews instead. The specs listed are also in optimal environments and real-life performance will almost always be worse for both performance and acoustics.

Hearing is subjective. Different noises are more or less audible or pleasant at the same dbA reading.

My system is below the desk and is about 4 feet away from my ears. I can pretty easily tell when they go above ~150rpm since I start to hear them. 

AF120 QE's have been shown to be better than AF120 PE's and my personal experience with them and SP120's reflect that. If you want to assume that they're the same without trying them yourself, feel free to do so.

[ThomasD]

9 minutes ago, WoodenMarker said:

There isn't a standardized method of measuring for fan specs and they should be ignored. Look at benchmarks and reviews instead. The specs listed are also in optimal environments and real-life performance will almost always be worse for both performance and acoustics.

Hearing is subjective. Different noises are more or less audible or pleasant at the same dbA reading.

My system is below the desk and is about 4 feet away from my ears. I can pretty easily tell when they go above ~150rpm since I start to hear them. 

AF120 QE's have been shown to be better than AF120 PE's and my personal experience with them and SP120's reflect that. If you want to assume that they're the same without trying them yourself, feel free to do so.

"...have been shown..."

 

You keep asserting evidence in the total absence of evidence. 

 

The fans are physically identical.  Same blades, same frames.

 

Please explain to me how, when operated at the same speed they will not perform the same?

[WoodenMarker]

4 minutes ago, ThomasD said:

"...have been shown..."

The fans are physically identical.  Same blades, same frames.

Please explain to me how, when operated at the same speed they will not perform the same?

Performance will be the same but the acoustics won't be. That's what I've experienced and that's what SPCR's results show. If you have tests to show the contrary, please link them. 

The fans aren't physically identical. If they were, they would spin at the same rpm.

4 minutes ago, ThomasD said:

You keep asserting evidence in the total absence of evidence. 

I don't think so. SPCR's results are pretty clear but on this point.. Ditto.

[ThomasD]

7 minutes ago, WoodenMarker said:

Performance will be the same but the acoustics won't be

Unpossible.  Unless you think that noise comes from something other than air movement and fan movement.  Identical physical objects performing in an identical manner (within the limits of measurement) will yield identical observable effects (within the limits of measurement.)

 

And yeah, I noted after I posted that you changed the subject to AF fans, which we were not previously talking about.  But you still cannot extrapolate that AF comparison to an SP comparison because the AF fans are physically different from the SP fans (different blade number and shape.)

 

You still have no evidence for comparing SP PE to SP QE.

[WoodenMarker]

1 minute ago, ThomasD said:

Unpossible.  Unless you think that noise comes from something other than air movement and fan movement.  Identical physical objects performing in an identical manner (within the limits of measurement) will yield identical observable effects (within the limits of measurement.)

And yeah, I noted after I posted that you changed the subject to AF fans, which we were not previously talking about.  But you still cannot extrapolate that AF comparison to an SP comparison because the AF fans are physically different from the SP fans (different blade number and shape.)

The motor or bearing is usually what makes more noise than airflow. If you think airflow is what you're hearing more of, you're probably referring to turbulence. 

The primary noise difference between AF120's and SP120's aren't due to the blade design.