My Adventure Installing Solar Panels

[ionbasa]

Finally Connected!

 

 

See production here: https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/YY5m676464/overview

And data updated here every 5 minutes: http://pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=48561&sid=44217

 

 

Here's todays (3/2/16) overview chart:

 

Sadly, the local weather station about a mile from me at an CalFire station went down today at 6AM, so no temperatures on my graph until it re-connects to Weather Underground. Maybe I should buy my own Personal Weather Station?

 

I still need to post some more pictures and wright up a few of the details I've missed to cover in this thread. I've been extremely busy these past two weeks.

[Admiral Naismith]

59 minutes ago, ionbasa said:

Snippy snip snip

I'd personally get a weather station just for my own amusement. Then again that may be the amateur meteorologist in me.

[ionbasa]

52 minutes ago, Admiral Naismith said:

I'd personally get a weather station just for my own amusement. Then again that may be the amateur meteorologist in me.

I've been thinking about it seriously, and for joining Citizen Weather Observer Program ran by NOAA. Plus, I can do it via APRS since I could repurpose one of my extra ham radios. Kinda of an around about way of doing it, but would add to the level of fun and difficulty vs just having it report automatically over the internet.

[Admiral Naismith]

7 hours ago, ionbasa said:

I've been thinking about it seriously, and for joining Citizen Weather Observer Program ran by NOAA. Plus, I can do it via APRS since I could repurpose one of my extra ham radios. Kinda of an around about way of doing it, but would add to the level of fun and difficulty vs just having it report automatically over the internet.

Do it man! Can never have enough data

 

[Talamakara]

@ionbasa & @Griffscavern

 

This is going to seem like a basic question i think for the two of you.

 

Firstly. Excellent job on setting up the panels, they look great and I hope they save you some cash. I actually don't live down in California nor am I in a place that sees a great deal of sunlight between November and March/April. (approximately 6 hours north of Montana)  I just had a sunroom put on the south side of my house and I was wondering if putting a few solar panels on top of the sun-room would it be worth doing? More specifically for powering or supporting the powering of my servers.

 

How do you define how much power you really need out of the panels, you were saying $0.99kw, at your price but how do you define how many panels you need to make how much power? Where do you draw the line between cost vs return on investment esp not in a place like California. And I guess what questions should I be asking, I've never looked into solar panels before.

[ionbasa]

6 hours ago, Talamakara said:

@ionbasa & @Griffscavern

 

This is going to seem like a basic question i think for the two of you.

 

Firstly. Excellent job on setting up the panels, they look great and I hope they save you some cash. I actually don't live down in California nor am I in a place that sees a great deal of sunlight between November and March/April. (approximately 6 hours north of Montana)  I just had a sunroom put on the south side of my house and I was wondering if putting a few solar panels on top of the sun-room would it be worth doing? More specifically for powering or supporting the powering of my servers.

 

How do you define how much power you really need out of the panels, you were saying $0.99kw, at your price but how do you define how many panels you need to make how much power? Where do you draw the line between cost vs return on investment esp not in a place like California. And I guess what questions should I be asking, I've never looked into solar panels before.

It really depends on how much power you consume, and that's where my calculations started off for me.

I took the median of an 12 month range of my Kilowatt-hour usage from my power company and used that as 'goal' for how much solar power I wanted.

 

From there, I started looking at panels and inverter options, along with gauging how big of an system I needed. For this task, the government (National Renewable Energy Laboratory) has a industry standard tool called PVWatts: http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/

There are some other calculators and utilities that can be found here: http://www.gosolarcalifornia.ca.gov/tools/calculators.php

 

You can play around with different models, system sizes and whatnot. 

 

From the looks of your sunroom, you might not be able to fit that many panels on there, maybe 4 max in a portrait orientation.

 

As for how I know how much power each panel should produce:

It all comes down to the inverter. My specific Micro Inverters produce 215W each at 97.5% efficiency. That means I need at least an ~220 Watt panel to get the most out of the inverter (215-215*.975 =~5.5W due to efficiency loss). Thus, I selected 230W panels (and some 250W panels I got a good deal on).

 

From there, let's say you have roughly 6 hours of peak daylight that's usable in producing anything meaningful: 215W * 6 hrs = 1.29Kwh

 

Next let's say you need 20Kwh a day to break even with your power company: 20 ÷ 1.29 ≈ 15 Panels

 

So, that's how you calculate how many panels you need.

 

As for cost/benefit:

I'm on an Net-Energy Metering schedule with my power company. The power I produce is backfeed to the grid. At the end of the month, the power company only charges me the 'net' amount of power I used. If I used less than I produced, then I get an incentive at the end of the year. If I use more than I produce, then I only get charged the difference:

ie: Produced 17 Kwh, Used 20 Kwh, only charged for 3 Kwh.

 

Regarding investment and where to draw the line: On an standard residential system, my power company will only let me go up to an array size that is 99% of my 12 month median power usage. So I went that big . Honestly, it depends on how much you can save: I used to pay 150+ on my power bill, and now I pay less than $15. In just over 3.5 years, my investment on solar power will pay for itself. After that, I'll  save money that isn't being charged on my electric bill.

[Talamakara]

Very interesting, thank you. If you don't mind can you share with me either here or in PM what you would have paid roughly (dollars not kwh) per panel + hardware involved (micro-inverters and cabling)

 

I ask cause this is what the solar calculators seem to be coming up with.

Estimated System Size (kW): 10.82 kW

Estimated Number of Panels Needed: 43

Estimated Rooftop Cost : $23,027

 

from the math you did it doesn't sound like your house uses very much power, or am i wrong?  My power&gas (same company) bill is like 200 a month... discounting colder environment.

 

From your guess at 4 panels max, thats exactly what i was thinking. Plus my sun room is made out of aluminum so i'm not sure how much weight it could technically hold so i'd have to ask how much the panels weigh. If i had to put railings into my sunroom it may not be sturdy enough. But if those calculators are right 4 panels won't do much of anything.

 

Have you ever measured how much power you would be getting on a overcast day, the solar light isn't completely stopped by the clouds is it? I'm curious on this cause in the winter i have more overcast days than sunny ones, even if it's not snowing.

 

Sorry if these are noobish questions

 

[ionbasa]

2 hours ago, Talamakara said:

Very interesting, thank you. If you don't mind can you share with me either here or in PM what you would have paid roughly (dollars not kwh) per panel + hardware involved (micro-inverters and cabling)

 

I ask cause this is what the solar calculators seem to be coming up with.

Estimated System Size (kW): 10.82 kW

Estimated Number of Panels Needed: 43

Estimated Rooftop Cost : $23,027

 

from the math you did it doesn't sound like your house uses very much power, or am i wrong?  My power&gas (same company) bill is like 200 a month... discounting colder environment.

 

From your guess at 4 panels max, thats exactly what i was thinking. Plus my sun room is made out of aluminum so i'm not sure how much weight it could technically hold so i'd have to ask how much the panels weigh. If i had to put railings into my sunroom it may not be sturdy enough. But if those calculators are right 4 panels won't do much of anything.

 

Have you ever measured how much power you would be getting on a overcast day, the solar light isn't completely stopped by the clouds is it? I'm curious on this cause in the winter i have more overcast days than sunny ones, even if it's not snowing.

 

Sorry if these are noobish questions

 

You must use a lot of electricity! Although I am in southern California, I'm actually located in an hilly-mountainside area, ala:

 

I have an 5-ton high efficiency central air conditioning unit that really only runs a few days in summer. Maybe around 30ish days max an year. The climate is pretty temperate, although there are times during the summer/early fall when it hits 95+ and I do crank the AC on, again, usually only 1 month out of the year. Most of my cooling comes from an whole house fan and an energy recovery ventilator to move stale interior air to the outside.

 

My power bill before solar was hovering about $150. My gas bill during the winter is roughly $75. During the spring/summer/fall it's less than $20 an month. I actually only have my central furnace, a tankless instant water heater, and an outdoor grill on natural gas. Otherwise, all of my appliances are electric, mainly: induction cooktop and a electric oven. All of my lights have been switched out to LED style recessed lighting as well to help shave off a few dollars a year.

 

As for your solar estimate: That doesn't quite seem right to me! How many Kwh are you using per month? Which solar calculator did you use? Do you mind me asking what state you're in? So I can look up peak daylight hours.

 

Here's what an overcast/cloudy day looks like: http://pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=48561&sid=44217&dt=20160312

I produce about 10 Kwh on a cloudy/overcast day. On a clear sunny day I basically produce 20 Kwh.

 

4 panels isn't going to cut it for most people, other than reducing your bill slightly, but remember: the power output of the panel is what really matters. LG has some 300+ Watt panels. Versus my panels which are 230/250W. Meaning you get more power out of the same sized panel. The solar panels mount to an rack/rail system. Look through the first page of this thread and you'll see what it looks like, I also have an video of it on here. Optimally, you'd install the panels on the roof.

 

As for the system cost, in total with doing my own work: ~$6500 (slightly less). Per unit, that's about ~$464 per panel including micro inverters, wiring, disconnect switch, grounding rod, etc. I wont be able to give you an exact breakdown within the next 12 hours. I need to price everything out and look back at how much I spent per item.

[Talamakara]

http://www.renewablelifestyles.ca/products-solar-electric-calculator.php

Latest bill was 142 (just power, gas is almost the same) just over 1000 kw

Estimated System Size (kW): 6.39 kW

Estimated Number of Panels Needed: 26

Estimated Rooftop Cost : $14,586

Forget states keep going north. Think Alberta Canada, about 4 hours north of the Montana border.

 

I love the view.

5-ton wow, thats large for a home, we have two 5 tons to cool a small LAN room. "move stale interior" = poor mans AC (have this in my house too lol)

My house is new, so still building into it. the LED lighting will come, in time. but otherwise i'm in the same boat when it comes to gas. On demand hot water, furnace and BBQ. My biggest power expenditures are my computers and my hot tub.

 

A cloudy overcast day producing 50% of what you have on a sunny day is actually a lot better than i was thinking. I thought you'd be looking at a quarter of that like maybe 5 or less.
 

No I didn't think 4 panels would do a whole lot. I was more looking to take the edge off either the servers or the hot tub. But i'm shocked again at what you paid for the hardware even doing it yourself. You have a lot more than 26 panels and yet you paid less than half what some of these companies are quoting. As for where to install them normally yes the roof would be ideal but this is my south facing view. So i was thinking 4 panels would be enough not only to see if it was a viable technology up here and if I did 4 panel only I wouldn't need to go to the town to get a permit. If i do a full install on the roof i need permits and everything else and they already fought me for the last 6 inches of where i built my sunroom, who knows if they will let the solar panels go.

 

 

 

[ionbasa]

57 minutes ago, Talamakara said:

http://www.renewablelifestyles.ca/products-solar-electric-calculator.php

Latest bill was 142 (just power, gas is almost the same) just over 1000 kw

Estimated System Size (kW): 6.39 kW

Estimated Number of Panels Needed: 26

Estimated Rooftop Cost : $14,586

Forget states keep going north. Think Alberta Canada, about 4 hours north of the Montana border.

 

I love the view.

5-ton wow, thats large for a home, we have two 5 tons to cool a small LAN room. "move stale interior" = poor mans AC (have this in my house too lol)

My house is new, so still building into it. the LED lighting will come, in time. but otherwise i'm in the same boat when it comes to gas. On demand hot water, furnace and BBQ. My biggest power expenditures are my computers and my hot tub.

 

A cloudy overcast day producing 50% of what you have on a sunny day is actually a lot better than i was thinking. I thought you'd be looking at a quarter of that like maybe 5 or less.
 

No I didn't think 4 panels would do a whole lot. I was more looking to take the edge off either the servers or the hot tub. But i'm shocked again at what you paid for the hardware even doing it yourself. You have a lot more than 26 panels and yet you paid less than half what some of these companies are quoting. As for where to install them normally yes the roof would be ideal but this is my south facing view. So i was thinking 4 panels would be enough not only to see if it was a viable technology up here and if I did 4 panel only I wouldn't need to go to the town to get a permit. If i do a full install on the roof i need permits and everything else and they already fought me for the last 6 inches of where i built my sunroom, who knows if they will let the solar panels go.

 

 

 

If you're wondering why my setup is so cheap:

I found a guy who imports solar panels and inverters by the pallet at one of the ports in San Diego! So far, I've used him for my own purposes and for buying panels for a few clients. Try looking up if there's anyone in your area or an reasonable distributer, they tend to post up craigslist ads, so check there first.

 

Regarding your estimated number of panels. The reason you need so many is due to the solar insolation value, which can be seen here:

 

 

You may want to use this website from the Natural Resources of Canada: http://pv.nrcan.gc.ca/pvmapper.php?MapSize=500%2C500&ViewRegion=Quick+Zoom&CMD=ZOOM_IN&minx=-3431130.000000&miny=3629860.000000&maxx=3200000.000000&maxy=10260990.000000&imagewidth=500&imageheight=500&mainmap.x=178&mainmap.y=234&units=0&tilt=1&period=13&title=SCF%2FCFS+CFSNet&title_e=SCF%2FCFS+CFSNet&title_f=SCF%2FCFS+CFSNet&lang=e&RLAYER=92163

 

Also, look here: http://www.solardirect.com/pv/systems/gts/gts-sizing-sun-hours.html

Alberta, Edmonton on yearly average only gets 3.75 peak daylight hours. The reason your array is so large is because due to your geographic location, you don't get the same peak power output over an day. Go back and look at how I did my calculations and use 3.75 peak daylight hours and you'll see the difference:

 

215 W Microinverter * 3.75 Peak daylight Hours = 806.25 Wh per panel = 0.80625 Kwh

1000 Kwh per month / 30 days = 33.333 Kwh a day

33.333 Kwh/day / 0.80625 Kwh = 41 Panels 

That's with 215 Watt micro inverters (and an paired wattage solar panel) in order to break even with your power company.

 

I tried it using the tool you provided, and I used an annual Kwh usage of 12000 (1000Kwh *12 months) and this is what it spits out:

Estimated System Size (kW): 8.57 kW
Estimated Number of Panels Needed: 34
Estimated Rooftop Cost : $18,207

 

It's pretty accurate too! NOTE: THey use 255 W panels for their calculations!

255 W Panel with Microinverter * 3.75 Peak daylight Hours = 956.25 Wh per panel = 0.95625 Kwh

1000 Kwh per month / 30 days = 33.333 Kwh a day

33.333 Kwh/day / 0.95625 Kwh = 34 Panels

Basically, It comes down to the fact that you guys don't get as much peak solar radiation. Unlike me where I get ~6 hrs of peak solar radiation and day! Unfortunately for you this means you have two options of approaching this:

1. Buy higher wattage higher efficacy panels to reduce the number of panels needed
2. Buy more 'standard' ~250 W panels to make up for reduced solar radiation

So, I'm gonna say that 4 panels is not gonna do anything meaningful for you. Do you know how much power your computers/servers draw per month? I know this might be hard to find out, but you can take the total PSU wattage and multiply by the number of hours on per day to get Kwh per day. This is assuming the PSUs are pegged at 100% though. 

 

Always get a permit! No matter what. I've had to do fix up jobs with my dad where municipalities put 'stop work' orders because someone didn't pull an permit or where something was done incorrectly. My last fix-job was actually for some post tension foundation on an garage door opening. And trust me, removing 3+ ft of concrete ain't pretty. Also, You'll need to pull a permit/application from your power company letting them know you're going to do an grid tie system. Luckily for me, my application process was all done online. Didn't even have an inspector from the power company come out, just had to take pictures and submit it to them.

 

If you're just going to be experimenting with 4 or so panels, it isn't worth it to pick up an permit and do all the hassle (I shouldn't be encouraging this). Legally you should, but most people won't really care. If you decide to do an large array, then please do pull a permit.

 

---

 

Off topic:

 

Regarding my energy recovery ventilator! It's not an poor mans AC. Its an unit that hooks up to my central ductwork and exchanges outside air with inside air, see: http://www.broan.com/products/lifestyle/hrv-or-erv-whats-the-difference-bf711e80-2043-41a0-bf21-98542b29a2d0

My whole house fan, well that is pretty much an 'poor mans' AC. I had an swamp cooler/ evap cooler on this house before I started remodeling, and pretty much hated it. Yes it did cool down a fair bit, but it made the air too humid and musky.

 

[Talamakara]

Dude

 

Thank you. You covered every base I probably could have asked with all that. As well as confirmed for me what i thought, that up here there is almost no point without higher watt panels, and even less of a point to even bother experimenting with just 4 panels.

 

Thank you for covering everything it is appreciated.