4K for Home Theater and WHY YOU MAY NOT NEED IT: Long Read

[Shaqo_Wyn]

That is actually surprisingly not what the OP is going on about.

 

I know. It was too long, so I didn't read.

[RogueCow]

I think you have a few flaws in there which I can go over tomorrow after work.

Mainly you don't want to see the pixels especially when something is just scaling. As in more dots representing the same image within the same space. Basically it will just look sharper. This is kinda the whole thing that apple's retina screens are based on as they just scale not give you more work but everything looks sharper.

Being that 1080p is not all that great, especially on tv's that size go against you claim of people not being able to tell the difference when at the proper seating distance for a certain size TV. And I'll guarantee that I can, especially side by side. Also on a 27in 1080p monitor only 1ft away you will see pixels. 24 or even 23 would be closer to what your talking about.

Alright well i look forward to what you find i'll edit the main once you let me know what isnt exactly right.

you understand the point i'm trying to make though right? Essentially at a certain distance you can add all the resolution you want, but you wont be able to see it.

Im not arguing that 4k sucks or anything, just that a 55" 4k viewed from 8' away, for example,will look the same as 1080p.

And agree with what you said about monitors, 1440p would definitely be better than the 1080p i have now on my 27". But even then i cant distinguish pixel by pixel. Whereas like you said, if it was a 23 or 24 wed be getting into the realm above.

thanks for your input,

Josh

[RogueCow]

I know. It was too long, so I didn't read.

I pretty much put this out there for anyone looking to spend alot of money on tvs and is serious about getting the right product and being informed.

If i was just a casual forum reader I wouldnt have read the whole thing either lol

[jbr]

you need a device that can output 4K and on the consumer electronics end of things those are quite rare.

 

Rare on which planet?

 

http://www.futureshop.ca/Search/SearchResults.aspx?path=ca77b9b4beca91fe414314b86bb581f8en20&query=4k+tv

http://www.bestbuy.ca/Search/SearchResults.aspx?path=ca77b9b4beca91fe414314b86bb581f8en20&query=4k+tv

http://www.radioshack.com/search?q=4k+tv

http://www.walmart.com/search/?query=4k+tv

http://search.ncix.com/search/?qcatid=0&q=4k+tv

http://www.memoryexpress.com/Search/Products?Search=4k+tv

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=4k+tv&N=-1&isNodeId=1

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=4k+tv

http://www.shopping.com/4k-tv/products?sb=1

 

 

As for content.... there are boatloads of 4K videos on Youtube alone and many Youtuber's are now shooting in 4K.

 

I have a folder on my HDD that has over 700 4K videos I haven't even gotten around to watching yet

there's so much being pumped out I can't catch up.

 

Price?  I picked up a 40" 4K Smart TV for $700 a week ago in Vancouver and that's in a country where prices are usually

several hundred more then what you can get the same item across the border.

 

 

Can't see a visual difference from 1080p beyond certain distances?

 

Ya, they said that about Laserdic, DVD.... then again with 720p, then 1080p.......  Blu-ray is a scam to get us to rebuy our media...yadda yadda yadda.

Every December, the charts and graphs come out from the envious people who can't afford something and believe all their pretty charts and fuzzy

math will some how make everyone stop going out and buying the newer technology.

 

In a few years 1080p monitors and TV's will be collecting dust in the discount section of stores just like 720p ones are now along with their Plasma cousins.

[genkifd]

where is fails is their is no such thing as Regular viewing distance.

[jbr]

4K Master Race!

 

 

Big Bug Bunny - Animated short in Glorious 4K 60FPS.

 

http://bbb3d.renderfarming.net/download.html

[Fate]

So I decided to test out that chart using a game (yea yea not scientific) but basically I set it at 1080p (28" display btw), went 4 feet back (apparently you stop noticing 4k vs 1080p at that point), and looked at the display. I then changed it to 4k and went 4 feet back, and looked at the display. I can notice a huge difference in image quality (unlike what your chart says). So I thought, ok, why not move back further? So I did the same thing over and over, and it wasn't until 9-10 feet away that I couldn't notice the difference (mind you I have pretty bad vision too).

For video it may be a bit different, but for actual image quality, the chart is bogus, at least for 28".

[Punk Monki]

On my 65' 4K TV i can tell the difference fro 1080p from my last TV, same size, same distance away. My family can tell the difference, and its a much better experience when 4K is available. Of course im limited to netflix and youtube and some movies i own. Cant wait for 4k to be a standard for cable

[RogueCow]

So I decided to test out that chart using a game (yea yea not scientific) but basically I set it at 1080p (28" display btw), went 4 feet back (apparently you stop noticing 4k vs 1080p at that point), and looked at the display. I then changed it to 4k and went 4 feet back, and looked at the display. I can notice a huge difference in image quality (unlike what your chart says). So I thought, ok, why not move back further? So I did the same thing over and over, and it wasn't until 9-10 feet away that I couldn't notice the difference (mind you I have pretty bad vision too).

For video it may be a bit different, but for actual image quality, the chart is bogus, at least for 28".

Lmao.

[RogueCow]

On my 65' 4K TV i can tell the difference fro 1080p from my last TV, same size, same distance away. My family can tell the difference, and its a much better experience when 4K is available. Of course im limited to netflix and youtube and some movies i own. Cant wait for 4k to be a standard for cable

Thats not surprising, since you are getting into the screen range where the extra presentation data is perceivable to the eye

[Fate]

Lmao.

Is that all you have to say when someone attempts to prove you wrong? lmao?

At least provide some sort of counter argument. 

[RogueCow]

where is fails is their is no such thing as Regular viewing distance.

Regular viewing distance= recommended viewing distance for each size.

Thatd be obvious to most people i thought, but aperantly that is the most confusing thing i presented, so i will change that for those who think the entire thing "fails" because of it...

FYI.

The most general rule (there are imax, smpte, and many other standards out there that vary and have different multipliers) recommend 1.5 times the diagonal tv size.

60-70" diagonal ranges usually around 7.5 to 8.75 feet, which I believe I based the op on.

[RogueCow]

Price? I picked up a 40" 4K Smart TV for $700 a week ago in Vancouver and that's in a country where prices are usually

several hundred more then what you can get the same item across the border.

Wow. So when i said you were someone that knows nothing and wasted money on a 4k tv (vs a larger 1080p set with better pq), bingo!!!! You should've lead with that and i would have immediately started ignoring you way back then.

Thanks for playing, but anyone who spends $700 on a tv and brags about it knows nothing about the qualities that differentiate a room with a tv from a home theater, and obviously isn't interested enough in home theater quality video equipment to be worthy of my time.

If you want people like me who actually have done hands on research on the topic to help out those who are interested and come here to ask questions, then stfu, sit back, and learn something.

Otherwise, myself and people like me will go back to being ghosts that sit back and watch as people like you continue to build the culture of ignorant consumerism in this world.

[RogueCow]

Is that all you have to say when someone attempts to prove you wrong? lmao?

At least provide some sort of counter argument.

My apologies, there were some other comments that required more attention, and the fact that you thought you had me proven wrong with your test was a little funny in this late hour.

But i have 3 issues with that:

1) the "bogus" chart is not mine, it is a very common chart that was developed by experts through experimentation.

2) what stats did you provide ME with to validate your argument? Do you have a 4k monitor? 1080p monitor? And you played around with the resolution settings in a game?

Im sorry but this in no way disproves my point.

if you have a MOVIE or VIDEO (less processing junk in the way), one in 1080p, and one in 4k.

And display the 1080p on a 1080p tv, and the 4k on a 4k tv. Dollars to donuts if they are less than 60-70", or fill roughly 30-40% or less of your field of view, they will look identical...

3) you are on a monitor. Even if you had a 1080p and 4k screen side by side, you are in the zone where differences in a screen that small could be noticed from 4" away but not 4.5" so if you look at the chart, the scales dont even go down that small since they begin to converge.

I believe i said right in the beginning of the op i have not done any testing with monitors, and do not wish to argue that point since i don't speak to anything i have seen myself.

Please read the god damn op if you are going to argue...

^ that's not specifically because of you, but most of these bs commenters obviously did not read the op in its entirety before they decided it was wrong and they should post.

[jbr]

You are entirely right.  I'm truly sorry.

 

I'm heading to the local Walmart and picking up a VHS cassette player and tube TV on Craigslist tommorow.

 

Thanks for setting me straight.

 

 

VHS MASTER RACE!

[RogueCow]

You are entirely right. I'm truly sorry.

I'm heading to the local Walmart and picking up a VHS cassette player and tube TV on Craigslist tommorow.

Thanks for setting me straight.

VHS MASTER RACE!

I knew it

[ionbasa]

So. what about projectors?

Quite a different story than what you claim in the original post, no?

 

Not saying what you posted in the OP was wrong, but you're missing out on something important.

 

We have an Sony 1080p projector in our livingroom. that basically covers the 95% of the wall, and that was bought at least five years ago. I expect about another 5 years of life out of it before upgrading to a 4k projector (hopefully laser). Now, in my use case 4k makes sense, and I think you can figure out why...

[dalekphalm]

Wow. So when i said you were someone that knows nothing and wasted money on a 4k tv (vs a larger 1080p set with better pq), bingo!!!! You should've lead with that and i would have immediately started ignoring you way back then.

Thanks for playing, but anyone who spends $700 on a tv and brags about it knows nothing about the qualities that differentiate a room with a tv from a home theater, and obviously isn't interested enough in home theater quality video equipment to be worthy of my time.

If you want people like me who actually have done hands on research on the topic to help out those who are interested and come here to ask questions, then stfu, sit back, and learn something.

Otherwise, myself and people like me will go back to being ghosts that sit back and watch as people like you continue to build the culture of ignorant consumerism in this world.

Just want to interject here:

 

The price of the TV does not inherently dictate picture quality. I have a 50" LG Plasma TV that I bought for just under $700 CAD (taxes included), that blows $1500+ LCD TV's out of the water(And yes that includes LED, since that is the backlight technology, and is still a subset of LCD technology).

 

Part of the cost savings was that it was a "dumb" TV with no Smart TV features. I have no use for such features, since it is connected directly to an HTPC.

 

But none the less, price does not always equal performance with TV's. There are a lot of factors to consider, aside from resolution.

 

I do agree that Panasonic Plasma TV's are some of the best TV's you can currently buy though.

[RogueCow]

So. what about projectors?

Quite a different story than what you claim in the original post, no?

Not saying what you posted in the OP was wrong, but you're missing out on something important.

We have an Sony 1080p projector in our livingroom. that basically covers the 95% of the wall, and that was bought at least five years ago. I expect about another 5 years of life out of it before upgrading to a 4k projector (hopefully laser). Now, in my use case 4k makes sense, and I think you can figure out why...

If you bothered to read my entire post you would find that your situation is exactly the case where 4k would make sense. A 5 second look at the graph would prove that.

[RogueCow]

Just want to interject here:

The price of the TV does not inherently dictate picture quality. I have a 50" LG Plasma TV that I bought for just under $700 CAD (taxes included), that blows $1500+ LCD TV's out of the water(And yes that includes LED, since that is the backlight technology, and is still a subset of LCD technology).

Part of the cost savings was that it was a "dumb" TV with no Smart TV features. I have no use for such features, since it is connected directly to an HTPC.

But none the less, price does not always equal performance with TV's. There are a lot of factors to consider, aside from resolution.

I do agree that Panasonic Plasma TV's are some of the best TV's you can currently buy though.

Completely agree with you and i was merely speaking to that user in their situation; more likely than not he bought a magnovox, insignia, etc pos that has 4k resolution but poop quality.

I do agree that price usually does not dictate quality whatsoever. My tv cost me $2000 plus tax, yet there are tvs being sold for hundreds or thousands more only because marketing allows them to be (more features and bs=more money)

Likewise, there are also cheap tvs (lesser plasmas, Vizio LED tvs) that are much cheaper than mainstream leds but wipe the floor with them in terms of quality because they are "dumb" or skipped gimmicks like 3d and such

[ionbasa]

If you bothered to read my entire post you would find that your situation is exactly the case where 4k would make sense. A 5 second look at the graph would prove that.

I did read your entire post. You mention projectors once, in the entirety of one sentence:

As i have quietly mentioned (lol) above, unless you are looking into projectors, or tvs much larger than 70", I GUARANTEE you would not notice a difference between a <70"

 

And you do not elaborate, or explain why.

 

Yes, the graph is pretty, but to be fair, there are also TVs (not just projectors) that are larger than 70".

[RogueCow]

I did read your entire post. You mention projectors once, in the entirety of one sentence:

And you do not elaborate, or explain why.

Yes, the graph is pretty, but to be fair, there are also TVs (not just projectors) that are larger than 70".

I only really mention projectors since I have never really heard of anyone running a projector less than 80", but I did edit the OP to clarify why i mentioned projectors..

But again, projectors will follow this same rule

[GeorgeSG]

I really don't see the point of this chart you posted. Everyone can go to a store and look at 4k and 1080p TVs (with various sizes from various distances) and figure out if they see a difference. I trust my eyes more than your chart  

I don't really like the attitude:

i would have immediately started ignoring you way back then

I don't think that's helping anyone.

 

Also, I think it would've been nice if you added a link to the original source.

 

I personally see a difference and probably will be buying a 4k tv a couple months down the road. Feel free to stick to 720p if you want to, I don't mind

[RogueCow]

I really don't see the point of this chart you posted. Everyone can go to a store and look at 4k and 1080p TVs (with various sizes from various distances) and figure out if they see a difference. I trust my eyes more than your chart

I don't really like the attitude:

I don't think that's helping anyone.

Also, I think it would've been nice if you added a link to the original source.

I personally see a difference and probably will be buying a 4k tv a couple months down the road. Feel free to stick to 720p if you want to, I don't mind

All i did was present the data thats out there and my own experience; ppl are free to ignore it if they wish. And the chart original source could be found with a quick google search so i didn't even bother.

For the record i used articles by AVS Forums and CNET (maybe I will post actual links later if they werent in the Op)

also, everyone sees a diff in the stores since they strategically mount tvs where you cant stand more than 6' away from them, and they dont put 1080 and 4k side by side. As stated in op, everyone will see a difference from 1' away, but that's not how you'd watch it at home.

The attitude was only there to deal with someone who made the same ignorant, unfounded argument over and over, and accused me of knowing nothing and not doing what i said i did. It May not be the best way to deal with someone, but everyone gets frustrated...

If you want to "trust your eyes", then buy two tvs of the same size, same equivalent model stats, but one 4k and one 1080p and set them up side by side at the distance you'd watch them at home. Play the same content, with each screen showing native res content (so 4k on 4k and 1080 on 1080) and you wont see a difference if you are in the same region of the chart, guaranteed. Better yet, have someone else set it up so you don't know which tv is which and try and choose the 4k.

Not gonna do this? Dont have time? What I thought, and that's why I made this post; I have done this personally and saw no difference between the two resolutions in my setup. So I felt it was my duty to convey my experience to other consumers here on LTT (I would on AVS but they already know better).

Overall, I have my tv and know that my TV is better than anything else being sold right now, so i could give two little turd nuggets about what everyone else says or does; im just trying to put the info out there to help.

If people choose to ignore it, bandwagon up and 4k now. It's not really going to matter since 4k is where we are going to end up anyways. I am just a proponent of getting a better PQ tv than a 4k tv if the option is there.

[Sauron]

I was wondering: there is a significant jump in pixel density between 1080p and 4k (twice as much right?), so perhaps while below the distances you have in the graph you may not be able to perceive full 4k, maybe you can perceive something like 1440p and still get a better experience than 1080p. I'm not going to buy a 4k tv until they are the price of current 1080p tvs and there is a lot of content available for them, but I kind of feel I should be able to notice at least some difference between a 46" 1080p tv and a 60" 4k one from 3 metres. Part of that may depend on the fact that I have exceptionally good eyesight (not a pun on the eye, I really do), but I use my 4k monitor without scaling and sometimes I can distinguish the single pixels (depending on the image being displayed).