The perfect camera

[DZanjo1ST]

Let's just put stuff together to make our own perfect camera.

I can start with the sensor.
Let's start with the LG G8 ThinQ sensor.
WRGB sensor array, A 2x2 pixel block: 1 White pixel (large, 50% of the block area) + 3 smaller RGB pixels.
The white pixel collects unfiltered light for improved sensitivity in dim settings. (ppl who don't know better look at highlights when checking DR which is wrong ... it's what's held on in the shadows that really tells)
We'll be using DGO, 16x 3 + 24 w Bit-Depth ADC and BSI. Higher pixel well capacity on blue pixels to handle higher photon counts, minimizing saturation. (wee keeping them skies)
RGB Pixel Size = 2:1.4 × 6.075 𝜇𝑚 (A35)
White Pixel Size = 1.4:2 × 6.075μm
White Pixel Size=8.6786μm
At a full frame size giving us a 4148×2765=11,470,220pixels(≈11.47MP) sensor. With 19 stops on liner DR and 24 of slop-based DR.... maybe...
LETS GO!!!

[Blue4130]

1 hour ago, DZanjo1ST said:

Let's just put stuff together to make our own perfect camera.

I can start with the sensor.
Let's start with the LG G8 ThinQ sensor.
WRGB sensor array, A 2x2 pixel block: 1 White pixel (large, 50% of the block area) + 3 smaller RGB pixels.
The white pixel collects unfiltered light for improved sensitivity in dim settings. (ppl who don't know better look at highlights when checking DR which is wrong ... it's what's held on in the shadows that really tells)
We'll be using DGO, 16x 3 + 24 w Bit-Depth ADC and BSI. Higher pixel well capacity on blue pixels to handle higher photon counts, minimizing saturation. (wee keeping them skies)
RGB Pixel Size = 2:1.4 × 6.075 𝜇𝑚 (A35)
White Pixel Size = 1.4:2 × 6.075μm
White Pixel Size=8.6786μm
At a full frame size giving us a 4148×2765=11,470,220pixels(≈11.47MP) sensor. With 19 stops on liner DR and 24 of slop-based DR.... maybe...
LETS GO!!!

A 4x5 tile based sensor that I can adapt for my 4x5 and 10x12 cameras. Would be nice if it didn't cost as much as a house.

[Electronics Wizardy]

1 hour ago, DZanjo1ST said:

With 19 stops on liner DR and 24 of slop-based DR.... maybe...

I think thats getting to the point of lenses can't have that much dynamic range, displays can't show it, and very scenes would be improved with more dynamic range. 

 

I'd typically rather have global shutter or faster readout than so much dynamic range as its likely to make a bigger difference.

 

1 hour ago, DZanjo1ST said:

At a full frame size giving us a 4148×2765=11,470,220pixels(≈11.47MP) sensor. With 19 stops on liner DR and 24 of slop-based DR.... maybe...

I'd argue that you can take advantage of > 11.4MP pretty easily, so would like more resolution here. ESP since typically higher res sensors work better in low light too.

 

 

[DZanjo1ST]

1 hour ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

I think thats getting to the point of lenses can't have that much dynamic range, displays can't show it, and very scenes would be improved with more dynamic range. 

 

I'd typically rather have global shutter or faster readout than so much dynamic range as its likely to make a bigger difference.

 

I'd argue that you can take advantage of > 11.4MP pretty easily, so would like more resolution here. ESP since typically higher res sensors work better in low light too.

 

 

Keeping the MP count low makes for good read-out speeds naturally ... the processing will have to be beefy tho.
Also no, the larger photo sites (aka low MP count) give better low-light sensitivity. Photons and such... The thing with higher res newer sensors is that you get overall cleaner noise especially when delivering to lower resolutions. Micro contrast also makes for a better overall picture than simply having a higher resolution. Also, no modern lenses have any problem resolving any amount of dynamic range.

[Electronics Wizardy]

1 minute ago, DZanjo1ST said:

Keeping the MP count low makes for good read-out speeds naturally ... the processing will have to be beefy tho.
Also no, the larger photo sites (aka low MP count) give better low-light sensitivity. Photons and such... The thing with higher res newer sensors is that you get overall cleaner noise especially when delivering to lower resolutions. Micro contrast also makes for a better overall picture than simply having a higher resolution. Also, no modern lenses have any problem resolving any amount of dynamic range.

There are a good amount of articles on low res sensors and how they aren't better at low light, like this one https://www.dpreview.com/videos/7940373140/dpreview-tv-why-lower-resolution-sensors-are-not-better-in-low-light. Generally higher res sensors are still the same/better in low light for a given generation. 

 

I'd argue you can take advantage of > 11.4 MP pretty easily so a higher res sensor will have a good benefit here. 

 

Got a source of lenses being able to take advantage of that amount of dynamic range? I'd guess a lot of lenses will have issues at 24 stops and there will be little practical use of that. There is also the issue of light bouncing around near the sensor hurting dynamic range, so I really double you could have a bright light like the sun in the frame along with a very dark shadow. 

 

I'd like to see a full frame 3 sensor camera as that theoretically should get a lot more light in than a bayer pattern or any other color filter on top of the sensor that normally gets rid of a lot of the light.

[DZanjo1ST]

12 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

There are a good amount of articles on low res sensors and how they aren't better at low light, like this one https://www.dpreview.com/videos/7940373140/dpreview-tv-why-lower-resolution-sensors-are-not-better-in-low-light. Generally higher res sensors are still the same/better in low light for a given generation. 

 

I'd argue you can take advantage of > 11.4 MP pretty easily so a higher res sensor will have a good benefit here. 

 

Got a source of lenses being able to take advantage of that amount of dynamic range? I'd guess a lot of lenses will have issues at 24 stops and there will be little practical use of that. There is also the issue of light bouncing around near the sensor hurting dynamic range, so I really double you could have a bright light like the sun in the frame along with a very dark shadow. 

 

I'd like to see a full frame 3 sensor camera as that theoretically should get a lot more light in than a bayer pattern or any other color filter on top of the sensor that normally gets rid of a lot of the light.

I'm not repeating reviews' opinions, I'm saying as tested data using a Xyla 26 and using the same generation sensor tech, the larger photo sites give less noise. The test shown above has a clear and simple flaw, we are talking about digital cameras not film using the same magnification show clear misunderstanding of the basic principles... If you're looking at noise you magnify to the same pixel-by-pixel area not the x??? amount and Higher res sensors give finer noise. There's a reason why the highest-end sensors out there with the most DR are lower-resolution. The industry begs to differ from you >11mp argument for the most part.  CCD sensors have been a thing have had some 3 sensor love before. but it's not as practical as just using a single sensor

[Electronics Wizardy]

20 minutes ago, DZanjo1ST said:

The industry begs to differ from you >11mp argument for the most part.

I'd disagree on this. Almost all full frame cameras are > 11 mp now. And with things like prints it makes a noticeable difference. And as I think you explained earlier, the noise is finder and higher res sensors retain more detail so why not go higher resolution.

 

As far as dynamic range, the high res sensors seem to do pretty well too. Cameras like the v-raptor and venice 2 retail very good dynamic range along with a 8k resolution. And on the stills side cameras like the R5, A7R series and other higher res sensors are on par with the low res full frame cameras. So I don't see why to go lower resolution. And since cameras like the v-raptor can read out at 120fps 8k I don't think readout speeds is a reason for most cameras to go with a lower resolution.

 

 

[DZanjo1ST]

2 hours ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

I'd disagree on this. Almost all full frame cameras are > 11 mp now. And with things like prints it makes a noticeable difference. And as I think you explained earlier, the noise is finder and higher res sensors retain more detail so why not go higher resolution.

 

As far as dynamic range, the high res sensors seem to do pretty well too. Cameras like the v-raptor and venice 2 retail very good dynamic range along with a 8k resolution. And on the stills side cameras like the R5, A7R series and other higher res sensors are on par with the low res full frame cameras. So I don't see why to go lower resolution. And since cameras like the v-raptor can read out at 120fps 8k I don't think readout speeds is a reason for most cameras to go with a lower resolution.

 

 

Ok here are some numbers (all in raw so no NR SNR1)

Red V Rapter 8k VV : 35MP  :SNR1 RAW 8k dynamic range = 14.9 stops Patch range : 15.3 stops REDCODE HQ
Sony Venice 2 8.6K : 49.76MP   :SNR1 RAW 8.6k dynamic range = 12.9 stops Patch range : 14.7 stops X-OCN XT

Arri Alexa 35 : 14.6MP   :SNR1 RAW 4.k dynamic range = 16.3 stops Patch range : 16.5 stops ARRIRAW

Canon C70 : 9.6MP  :SNR1 RAW 8k dynamic range = 14 stops Patch range : 17.1 stops Cinema RAW Light LT
Blackmagic URSA Cine 12K LF : 80MP : :SNR1 RAW 12k dynamic range = 14.5 stops Patch range : 15.3 stops BRAW

P.S the red has always on highlight recovery (results are better than actual sensor performance aka) 

And if you want confirmation as to the the truth about these higher MP sensors 
Sony Venice 2 8.6K : 49.76MP   :SNR1 RAW 4k dynamic range = 14.2 stops Patch range : 15.9 stops ProRES HQ
With down sampling + the NR from ProRES boom more "DR" but really because it's only perceived 

[DZanjo1ST]

P.S Red is always just cheating LOL, I should have said for video in the title. (info from CineD and I can confirm the C70 and Venice 2  results personally) 

[Electronics Wizardy]

16 minutes ago, DZanjo1ST said:

Ok here are some numbers (all in raw so no NR SNR1)

Red V Rapter 8k VV : 35MP  :SNR1 RAW 8k dynamic range = 14.9 stops Patch range : 15.3 stops REDCODE HQ
Sony Venice 2 8.6K : 49.76MP   :SNR1 RAW 8.6k dynamic range = 12.9 stops Patch range : 14.7 stops X-OCN XT

Arri Alexa 35 : 14.6MP   :SNR1 RAW 4.k dynamic range = 16.3 stops Patch range : 16.5 stops ARRIRAW

Canon C70 : 9.6MP  :SNR1 RAW 8k dynamic range = 14 stops Patch range : 17.1 stops Cinema RAW Light LT
Blackmagic URSA Cine 12K LF : 80MP : :SNR1 RAW 12k dynamic range = 14.5 stops Patch range : 15.3 stops BRAW

P.S the red has always on highlight recovery (results are better than actual sensor performance aka) 

And if you want confirmation as to the the truth about these higher MP sensors 
Sony Venice 2 8.6K : 49.76MP   :SNR1 RAW 4k dynamic range = 14.2 stops Patch range : 15.9 stops ProRES HQ
With down sampling + the NR from ProRES boom more "DR" but really because it's only perceived 

Is there any DGO FF or high res sensor(I guess alexa LF)? I don't think any of those FF sensors you listed are DGO. There aren't any low res non DGO sensors on the list. If I remeber right the fx6/fx3/a7siii sensor is fine for dynamic range, but on part with those higher res non DGO sensors.

 

This list seems to show how good DGO sensors are, with s35 DGO sensors easily beating the FF sensors in dynamic range.

[DZanjo1ST]

24 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

Is there any DGO FF or high res sensor(I guess alexa LF)? I don't think any of those FF sensors you listed are DGO. There aren't any low res non DGO sensors on the list. If I remeber right the fx6/fx3/a7siii sensor is fine for dynamic range, but on part with those higher res non DGO sensors.

 

This list seems to show how good DGO sensors are, with s35 DGO sensors easily beating the FF sensors in dynamic range.

Wiht DGO off c70 in raw still has higher DR that V2 
DGO is also a benefit of smaller res sensors, DGO with high res sensors would be really slow unless Global... IDK why we doing have Global DGO's yet seems like a waste .... who knows ... A9mk3 sensor with DGO in the future ???!!! with 15+ stops ????

Ever sensor doing 4k 120 with less <=7 ms should have DGO in my opinion. 
FX6 is like mid 12 and fx3 low 13's