New Ubiquiti setup; POE++?

[johnt]

What's the deal with POE++? I understand it's more power and a "newer" standard that's been out for a while, but it doesn't seem like there is much on the consumer/enthusiast markets that requires it. I noticed the Ubiquiti U7 Pro is rated for 21w so it's getting close to the threshold for POE++. But almost everything else on Ubiquiti’s site is rated for POE or POE+.

 

I’m starting to build my Dream Machine SE and considering which switch to add. The two options I’ve narrowed it down to based on my immediate and near future needs are the Pro Max 24 POE (8xPOE+, 16xPOE++, 8x2.5 Gbps) or the Enterprise model (24xPOE+ only, 12x2.5 Gbps). They are both crazy expensive so I’m giving this a lot of thought. I know I can always add another switch but at this price point, I’d rather not (between the wife and rack space). The Enterprise model gives me four more 2.5 Gbps ports, but no POE++. And it seems like the newer APs (U7 Pro) are going to utilize the 2.5Gbps ports, so the existing switches are going to be skewed to the right ports between APs and wired devices. I wish the PM24POE had more 2.5 ports!

 

But realistically, should I be looking into the POE++ capable switch to “future proof” at the cost of fewer 2.5 ports? I’m concerned the future U10/11/12 will break the 30w limit of POE+ and I will need to drop another $800 for newer gear. Just looking for some opinions. I'm quite a noob in this tech space so feel free to share your thoughts.

[Electronics Wizardy]

Do you have specific devices you want to use that needs poe++? If not, I don't see  a point in buying  poe++ switch as its only for high power poe devices that are pretty rare in environments like this.

 

You can also add a Poe++ injector later on if needed. I have a UDM SE, but with  Switch flex with  a couple cameras poe+ wasn't enough, so I got a injector and it works without issues.  Probably cheaper to use injectors if you have a couple of poe++ devices too.

 

 

[johnt]

5 hours ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

 

Do you have specific devices you want to use that needs poe++?

 

I'm not sure. I think I'm trying to figure out if there will be more devices in the near future that might be worthwhile. The Switch Flex seems like a cool concept and I didn't consider the individual injectors. You're right, that is a cheaper alternative in the long run.

[Alex Atkin UK]

PoE is extremely useful.  High-end WiFi Access Points require PoE+ and with PoE++ you could run things like NUCs without their own PSU - if PoE++ extractors weren't so stupidly unreasonably expensive.

 

Its all very well saying PoE injectors can be added, but that negates half the point that anything plugged into my Switch gets its power via the UPS.   I'd need the ugly situation of a power splitter to add PoE injectors and the wasted power from every additional PSU at idle.  With it in the switch, the power is just there already.

I use PoE extractors to run a monitor, LED lights, etc that I can't otherwise without adding an AC strip off the UPS.  I'm hoping PoE++ extractors come down in price so I can run my pfSense box off it, it was before but the PoE+ extractor didn't like the load when I upgraded the router.

[johnt]

3 hours ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

++ you could run things like NUCs without their own PSU

This is the type of stuff I need to hear. I didn't even know this was a possibility. I just grabbed a POE to LED strip for my cage. That should keep the little spiders out of my box. Great tip!

[Alex Atkin UK]

2 hours ago, johnt said:

This is the type of stuff I need to hear. I didn't even know this was a possibility. I just grabbed a POE to LED strip for my cage. That should keep the little spiders out of my box. Great tip!

Yeah in theory my N100 should run off PoE+ but finding a good extractor can be tricky.  The Edimax one I use is supposed to support 12V 2A but several reviews said it cuts out below that.

Never had a problem on my N5105 PC but the N100 would lose power during boot, likely due to turbo boosting during boot.

One plus is while that one says Gigabit ethernet, it passes through 2.5Gbit just fine.

 

I also use one of these for my MiSTer emulation box:

 

Also have one of these to give me more ports as my main switch is only 10 ports:

I'm just hoping we get some nice PoE++ splitters to solve the problem.

[LAwLz]

A lot of the focus so far has been on PoE++, if it's worth it or not. I'd like to focus on the idea that 2.5Gbps ports are worth having or not.

Even if we talk about future-proofing and such, how likely is it that you will need more than 1Gbps to a single device? 

 

Let's ignore all the stuff about Internet connections over 1Gbps being very rare, what would you even use it for? I am having a hard time using even 100Mbps for my local network.

The most bandwidth-intensive things I do are downloading things from the Internet, and transferring files locally.

For downloading things, I rarely even reach the 250Mbps I pay for, let alone 10 times higher speeds. Even if I did, I could probably wait a few more minutes.

 

For local file transfers, my biggest and highest resolution video is my rip of the Fellowship of the Rings. It's 40GB in size.

That video has an average bitrate of 24.7Mb/s. 40 people could be streaming that file over a single 1 Gbps connection. 

 

 

You're paying A LOT of money for something that you will most likely even benefit from, and even if you do benefit from it once in a blue moon it will barely be noticeable. Don't get too caught up in chasing big numbers for the sake of big numbers.

 

[johnt]

8 hours ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

Yeah in theory my N100 should run off PoE+ but finding a good extractor can be tricky

Do you always need an extractor for these devices? I think the Raspberry Pi (with a POE hat) connect directly with ethernet. Now I am questioning the LED strip I purchased. It might just be bare wire on the other end... I was hoping it would terminate to ethernet for direct connection to my console or switch.

[johnt]

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

You're paying A LOT of money for something that you will most likely even benefit from, and even if you do benefit from it once in a blue moon it will barely be noticeable. Don't get too caught up in chasing big numbers for the sake of big numbers.

You are raising a few great questions. This is purely an upgrade for the future at this point. I have two young boys who haven't quite gotten into tech yet. But I have a feeling I will need to purchase unlimited data from my ISP soon lol

 

This upgrade is to help transfer speeds between computers and NAS, and most likely higher internet speeds over the next 3 to 5 years. I was paying $60 USD for 1 gig speeds, and while it is ridiculously fast, it's nice when you have to download something huge like software and games. It's not necessary but the deal was $40 USD for 250 mbit or $60 for 1,000 for two years. We have access to faster speeds here, but you are right, it's not useful in most circumstances.

 

I also never bothered transferring files between my PCs over the network. I always used an external hard drive bc the 1 Gbps transfer speed was slow and my entire network became unusable during the file transfer. I grabbed a cheapo 2.5 Gbps switch recently and it certainly makes transferring large files over the network an option. It was fast enough that it saturated the cache on my cheap SSD in my media PC.

 

The upgraded switch is not something I plan to purchase without a need or discount. That's why my post was wondering if the POE++ was worth it over additional 2.5 ports.

[Alex Atkin UK]

3 hours ago, johnt said:

Do you always need an extractor for these devices? I think the Raspberry Pi (with a POE hat) connect directly with ethernet. Now I am questioning the LED strip I purchased. It might just be bare wire on the other end... I was hoping it would terminate to ethernet for direct connection to my console or switch.

The problem with things like LED strips is unless they are smart and are controlled over ethernet, or have passthrough, you're wasting an ethernet port.  For my purpose I put extractors on random ports of the switch that are going to clients in other room, to light where the switch is.  So its effectively free.

As for 2.5Gbit, I consider it invaluable as even modern HDDs can move data at those speeds.  I often move data around so my setup is a mix.

[LAwLz]

4 hours ago, johnt said:

This is purely an upgrade for the future at this point.

Then don't do it.

Buying things you don't need today because "I might need it in the future" is almost always a bad idea. Prices fall, new standards come out. By the time you actually need the things you are planning on buying today you might be able to get much faster stuff for the same price, or the same performant stuff for a lower price.

 

 

4 hours ago, johnt said:

I also never bothered transferring files between my PCs over the network. I always used an external hard drive bc the 1 Gbps transfer speed was slow and my entire network became unusable during the file transfer. I grabbed a cheapo 2.5 Gbps switch recently and it certainly makes transferring large files over the network an option. It was fast enough that it saturated the cache on my cheap SSD in my media PC.

That does not sound right.

Your network should not become unusable during file transfers. If that's what happened then chances are the same would happen with 2.5Gbps, because it sounds like the transfer speed isn't the issue. Can you describe in more detail what happens? It might be worth troubleshooting and fixing, rather than buying new things.

 

Your cheap SSD should not be saturated by a 2.5Gbps connection either. And as I said earlier, a single 1Gbps connection is enough to stream my super high-quality LOTR rip to 40 people at the same time. There is no way that you need more than 1Gbps for a media PC. Media that require so much bandwidth simply don't exist, not even close.

 

Honestly, this whole post just sounds bizarre to me. I think you are trying to find excuses to justify your desire to buy expensive stuff, because buying expensive stuff is fun. I don't think you have a legitimate use case for the things you want to buy. You're free to buy stuff if you want, don't let me be a hindrance. But my honest advice to you would be:

1) Think about what you actually need. What use cases do you have? 

 

2) Buy what you need, when you need it. Don't try and future-proof. In 99% of cases, it just leads to wasted money.

 

3) Remember, if you don't buy let's say a 2.5Gbps switch today, you might be able to get a 5Gbps switch for the same price by the time you might need 2.5Gbps. If you are buying things just because buying things is fun, then chances are you will get a small and very temporary boost in happiness when you get it but by the time the 5Gbps switch is out you will start feeling regret and a desire to buy the 5Gbps switch. That's what I usually see whenever people on this forum ask questions like you do. They talk about future-proofing and then 2-3 years down the line I see the same people making posts about how they want to upgrade their PC.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

As for 2.5Gbit, I consider it invaluable as even modern HDDs can move data at those speeds.  I often move data around so my setup is a mix.

It's not about reaching the highest speeds possible. It's about designing things around what you actually need.

You might constantly move data around, but that is not the standard usage, and my guess is that you don't actually need those speeds anyway. As I said earlier, even if you max out 1Gbps (which I do from time to time), it's in scenarios where the speed doesn't actually matter. When I am transferring a BD rip from my PC to my NAS it might take 5 minutes and the bottleneck is the 1Gbps connection, but does that actually matter? What benefit would I gain from upgrading to a faster connection? Sure the transfer would be faster, but it's not like it enables me to do anything differently. All it would do is make it so that the file transfer dialog, which I keep minimized, would disappear a few minutes faster. But that's inconsequential.

 

 

It's also worth noting that just because a modern HDD can reach those speeds for sequential writes, doesn't mean you will get anywhere near 1Gbps when doing transfers of mixed data.

I am doing a backup of my image folder right now to my RAID 6 NAS, and I am getting around 20MB/s (160Mbps). I am not being bottlenecked by my gigabit connection. I am not being bottlenecked by the sequential write speeds of my NAS drives. I am being bottlenecked by the IOPS.

[Alex Atkin UK]

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

As I said earlier, even if you max out 1Gbps (which I do from time to time), it's in scenarios where the speed doesn't actually matter. When I am transferring a BD rip from my PC to my NAS it might take 5 minutes and the bottleneck is the 1Gbps connection, but does that actually matter? What benefit would I gain from upgrading to a faster connection?

The fact I can move a BD rip to one drive, while downloading at Gigabit to another, while everything else remains speedy for other tasks/clients as the NIC is not the bottleneck.

 

Like you said, its very specific to your own workflow and one of the reasons why NOT using RAID works for me.

[johnt]

9 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Buying things you don't need today because "I might need it in the future" is almost always a bad idea.

I don't think I was clear... my bad... I need/want the 2.5 Gbps bandwidth today. I already have a simple 2.5 switch without POE. I have three PCs in my house that can utilize the bandwidth when transferring large files. The "future proofing" came from whether I need 8 or 12 ports for additional devices as I raise my little family of nerds versus the benefits/tradeoffs of POE++. I am very unfamiliar with POE in general and it makes me a bit nervous that modern APs use 21w when POE+ is rated to 30w. So buying a switch that has a power limit we are quickly approaching is a bad call. I was also surprised to see that a wifi7 spec AP could use a 2.5 port, which means 2.5 ports will be at an even greater premium moving forward. But who cares about the ports if the switch can't even power the AP? My original post was basically asking if POE++ is worth it over four more 2.5 ports.

 

It's not uncommon to have a video rip of 40 GB or a lot more these days. For instance, when I fire up TeamViewer to control my media PC and then transfer files to it, a 1 Gbps line becomes fully saturated for a very long duration, and my remote session becomes completely unusable. I do expect the same behavior with a 2.5 connection, but it should also take a lot less time to transfer files so I won't get as impatient.

 

To your other point, during my testing, I transferred a 55 GB file under 4 minutes with 2.5 Gbps, which is different than streaming it to ~40 people over 3 hours. I suspect it would take closer to 20 minutes with a 1 Gbps connection.

 

I promise nobody is going hungry in my house over this discussion and potential purchase lol. My previous router was purchased in 2016 and it recently stopped broadcasting the 5 GHz band, it drops wired connections, and it can no longer handle the 25 or so wireless devices we have. I don't want to replace it! But I have to at this point. I had 100 Mbps when I bought that thing. Today my DL speed is a Gbps. I'm going to be completely bottlenecked in 8 to 10 years when I'm ready to replace my new gear if I stick with a 1 Gbps network.

[LAwLz]

8 hours ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

The fact I can move a BD rip to one drive, while downloading at Gigabit to another, while everything else remains speedy for other tasks/clients as the NIC is not the bottleneck.

 

Like you said, its very specific to your own workflow and one of the reasons why NOT using RAID works for me.

You can do that with a 1Gbps connection too, and it sounds like a very rare scenario.

 

I also think your workflow sounds very inefficient if this is what you end up doing a lot.

I get the impression from you too that you're the type of person who likes buying expensive things, and then come up with justifications for it afterwards. That the reason why you chose a 700 dollar switch over a 100 dollar switch isn't so much because you NEED it, but because you WANT it. It's cool and fun to have those things.

But regardless of whether I am off the mark or that I am right, you do you. It's not my money you're spending. In the case of OP though, he came here asking for advice so I will give my advice.

 

 

 

37 minutes ago, johnt said:

I need/want the 2.5 Gbps bandwidth today.

My guess is that it's more about what you "want" rather than what you "need".

 

 

37 minutes ago, johnt said:

I am very unfamiliar with POE in general and it makes me a bit nervous that modern APs use 21w when POE+ is rated to 30w. So buying a switch that has a power limit we are quickly approaching is a bad call.

The thing about technology, and why I am so hesitant about anyone saying they want to spend a bunch of money to "future-proof" things, is that it is extremely unpredictable.

You say that we are "quickly approaching" the limits of PoE+, but we don't know if that's true. Chances are, we aren't approaching the limits at all.

 

PoE came out in 2003.

PoE+ came out in 2009.

PoE++ came out in 2018.

 

The U6 Pro from UniFi uses the PoE standard. It doesn't need anything more than what we already had in 2003. It doesn't benefit at all from using anything newer than the standard that's 21 years old.

The U6 Enterprise, with its triple radios, 10 streams and 2.5Gbps uplink maxes out at 22 watts. When I look back at access points from 14 years ago, I see the same power consumption numbers.

 

But for all we know, in 2-3 years a completely new standard might come out, or a new use case might appear so even PoE++ might not be enough. 

Trying to "future-proof" is basically gambling, and that's my point. The future is extremely hard to predict not just because technology changes, but our use cases on both an individual and societal level can change drastically from one day to the next.

 

 

 

41 minutes ago, johnt said:

It's not uncommon to have a video rip of 40 GB or a lot more these days. For instance, when I fire up TeamViewer to control my media PC and then transfer files to it, a 1 Gbps line becomes fully saturated for a very long duration, and my remote session becomes completely unusable. I do expect the same behavior with a 2.5 connection, but it should also take a lot less time to transfer files so I won't get as impatient.

It's not uncommon? Dude, you should get better encoded files.

My guess is that your 40GB rips are really bloated. You could most likely halve the size and lose maybe 1% of visual quality. At least if we're talking about ripped movies.

I think this is a case where the issue isn't the bandwidth, but rather the workflow. As you said, the issue wouldn't even be fixed by upgrading to 2.5Gbps, it would just make the issue appear for shorter periods of time. I think you should work smarter, not throw money at it trying to brute force a somewhat usable solution.

 

 

46 minutes ago, johnt said:

I suspect it would take closer to 20 minutes with a 1 Gbps connection.

It would take slightly over 7 minutes, not 20.

 

47 minutes ago, johnt said:

I promise nobody is going hungry in my house over this discussion and potential purchase lol. My previous router was purchased in 2016 and it recently stopped broadcasting the 5 GHz band, it drops wired connections, and it can no longer handle the 25 or so wireless devices we have. I don't want to replace it! But I have to at this point. I had 100 Mbps when I bought that thing. Today my DL speed is a Gbps. I'm going to be completely bottlenecked in 8 to 10 years when I'm ready to replace my new gear if I stick with a 1 Gbps network.

1) Does the bottleneck actually matter?

2) Do you not think that in the year 2032 when you will get bottlencked, that Ubiquiti or some other company will offer better products for a similar or lower price than what we have today? Do you not see how silly it sounds to spend a lot of money in 2024 for something you MIGHT need in 2032? And that "might" severely hinges on a future prediction that goes against the overall evolution and trajectory of bandwidth needs. 

 

I will leave this thread now because I suspect I am saying things you don't want to hear, and you didn't post on this forum to have someone try and convince you to spend less money. But I want you to actually think about what I said and consider that maybe you are thinking of buying these things not because you need them, but because you want something new, shiny, and expensive. I also think buying new things is fun, especially expensive things. I like seeing big numbers on my screen. But those bursts of happiness are very short-lived and the result is usually that people end up wasting a lot of money that they could have spent on getting better things later. Saving money is rarely as fun as spending money, but it's oftentimes the more sensible thing to do.

[johnt]

On 2/22/2024 at 12:14 AM, LAwLz said:

I get the impression from you too that you're the type of person who likes buying expensive things, and then come up with justifications for it afterwards. That the reason why you chose a 700 dollar switch over a 100 dollar switch isn't so much because you NEED it, but because you WANT it. It's cool and fun to have those thi

On 2/22/2024 at 12:14 AM, LAwLz said:

My guess is that it's more about what you "want" rather than what you "need".

I'm really confused. Is there something wrong with purchasing something because you want it?

 

On 2/22/2024 at 12:14 AM, LAwLz said:

But for all we know, in 2-3 years a completely new standard might come out, or a new use case might appear so even PoE++ might not be enough. 

Trying to "future-proof" is basically gambling, and that's my point.

This was basically my question. Of course it is a gamble, but buying a nearly 15 year old cell phone today for full price isn't a great idea either. It's not like I have several POE+ connections around my house. I have zero. And the question was should I invest in a 6 year old or 15 year old technology. I don't follow networking equipment so I really wasn't sure what was in the pipeline. The U8 could easily be a 4090 of APs and I was hoping people from the industry could provide some insight.

 

My wife and I have discussed we want to upgrade our house to POE for cameras and of course I added APs. The wifi cameras we have are very unreliable. Some of them just won't connect to the router after a power cycle (like the power going out during a storm). Notifications are delayed by days. They randomly disconnect and reconnect. Night time quality is a joke. And accessing the older files, plus the subscription fees, can be a serious nightmare. Not to mention all the traffic they create on wifi.

 

I've done the math, drew up the plans, and I have about 18 to 20 places where I want to route cable for cameras, APs, and devices. Between the APs and cameras and 24 ports, Ubiquiti offers a standard 24 port POE with only 95w rated output. Between 2 to 3 APs that are rated for ~20w each and 5 to 6 cameras rated between 7 and 12w, it is not wise to purchase a 95w switch.

 

My next options are the two mentioned in my original post with 2.5 Gbps, plus a third switch with 1 Gbps throughput. All three are specified to 400w for POE. That is probably way more power than I need. But there is no other product in between available on their site with 24 ports. They used to have a gen1 model with 250w of power but I think it's been discontinued or it is out of stock. The current lineup offers a 1 Gbps/400w model for $700 and two 2.5 models for $800. With the main difference between the $800 models is the number of 2.5 ports and POE++. I don't see how I am being unreasonable. It's $100 more for 2.5.

 

I also have to consider the price of admission here. Yes I can totally live with 1 Gbps, but for $700, why? The price of admission is HUGE compared to the cost of the upgrade. I can't imagine buying such an expensive product without giving some thought to the future.

 

I do think your viewpoint is very important and probably needs to be heard by many more people. This "upgrade" is not on a whim. My wife has been begging me to upgrade our wifi for years. No it's not her fault that I am shooting for the moon. She would have been happy with another ASUS with LED lights on it. But it has been planned, budgeted, the money has been saved plus contingency for the cable routing process, and a lot of fun exploring.