iMessage on Android (For Real this Time)

[Sauron]

Of course, rather than losing your mind and paying to get around proprietary restrictions, you could just get your iphone using friends to use one of the dozens of third party messaging apps that work on all platforms, like telegram or whatsapp.

[Sauron]

4 minutes ago, htimsenyawed said:

As an iPhone user, this is a terrible idea. Telegram and Whatsapp scream "I'm about to be scammed" to me - maybe it's an American thing, but those aren't very popular and not a replacement for an actual phone number tied to a service plan in the States.

In what way would they "scam" you? You still use your phone number with both... not that either is perfect but they certainly have nothing to envy imessage over.

[Sauron]

4 minutes ago, htimsenyawed said:

It's a pretty common scam to request a WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, Teams, Skype or other chat service. I don't know how many emails and SMS I've received from scam job offers demanding I install one of those to communicate with a 'hiring manager' with. It seems to be mostly third world country scammers that do it.

Well sure, they are one way to do that... but the problem isn't with the apps there. It's not like installing them will automatically give scammers additional access to you - it's no easier than through email or SMS, which you have anyway. If someone unwanted contacts you, it's one tap to block them. Maybe there's some stigma but it's quite unwarranted. The biggest problems I have with whatsapp specifically are 1) that it's owned by the zucc and 2) that it hosts your data locally on your phone making it needlessly inconvenient to access across devices, but other apps don't have those issues.

[Sauron]

10 minutes ago, htimsenyawed said:

If I ever travel to Europe I suppose I'm SOL in communicating with anyone there though because, apparently, even businesses use WhatsApp instead of an actual phone line?

Yeah it's quite ubiquitous here, although most businesses have a normal phone line as well... besides you need at least a phone number to use whatsapp in the first place. They do offer some sort of "business version" too, though I don't know what it adds.

 

People will still receive your SMS and calls, don't worry

[saintlouisbagels]

46 minutes ago, htimsenyawed said:

Interesting. I've never signed up for WhatsApp so I didn't know it required a phone number. What's the point of using a third party messaging app to do the same thing your phone does?

iMessage is the same as the third party messaging apps.

RCS is the next generation update to SMS/MMS (texting and multimedia messaging), but its release as been seriously fumbled by Google and all of the telecom companies, so the rollout has been slow and confusing. It was only THIS year that Google finally made the RCS protocol default even though they introduced it in like 2019.

 

RCS brings "messaging/chat" features that we've taken for granted since everyone is already on iMessage/WhatsApp. Chat reactions, inline replies, typing indicators, messages receipts (delivered/read), sending videos and high resolution pictures, texting over data/wifi instead of relying on cellular, and so on.

 

Overseas, texting is not unlimited unlike USA. This is why everyone everyone automatically downloads WhatsApp/Facebook Messenger. 3rd party apps are not texting/SMS - they are messaging. iMessage is also not texting/SMS FYI since it uses data.

[RejZoR]

47 minutes ago, saintlouisbagels said:

iMessage is the same as the third party messaging apps.

RCS is the next generation update to SMS/MMS (texting and multimedia messaging), but its release as been seriously fumbled by Google and all of the telecom companies, so the rollout has been slow and confusing. It was only THIS year that Google finally made the RCS protocol default even though they introduced it in like 2019.

 

RCS brings "messaging/chat" features that we've taken for granted since everyone is already on iMessage/WhatsApp. Chat reactions, inline replies, typing indicators, messages receipts (delivered/read), sending videos and high resolution pictures, texting over data/wifi instead of relying on cellular, and so on.

 

Overseas, texting is not unlimited unlike USA. This is why everyone everyone automatically downloads WhatsApp/Facebook Messenger. 3rd party apps are not texting/SMS - they are messaging. iMessage is also not texting/SMS FYI since it uses data.

SMS has been unlimited in most places for a while. It's the MMS that's not. My budget provider for example offers unlimited calls, unlimited SMS, 90GB of data, but charges MMS per message sent. Like, wtf? What is this, 2001 ?

[Sauron]

1 hour ago, htimsenyawed said:

Interesting. I've never signed up for WhatsApp so I didn't know it required a phone number. What's the point of using a third party messaging app to do the same thing your phone does?

Aside from going through the internet, you get features that sms simply does not have... like group chats, images/stickers, gifs (technically there's MMS for images but it's expensive and either way it doesn't work nearly as well). imessage is just apple's proprietary version of this, except it only works between iphones, so it's just... worse.

[Sauron]

1 minute ago, htimsenyawed said:

The question I have is, why hasn't Europe tried to make using SMS/MMS better instead of relying on third party companies like Meta to develop messaging applications?

It's not really a Europe problem, unless you're suggesting the EU to seize ISP assets and run the show directly (which I might even agree with but it's not like the US has done that). It's more like ISPs here have seen that people were using internet based messaging apps and decided to focus more on internet packages than doing anything to promote the already technologically outdated SMS and MMS systems.

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, htimsenyawed said:

 

Could be, but in the United States using WhatsApp or any other third party messaging service is very uncommon for people communicating within the nation. Most people who use WhatsApp or another third party messaging service are either 1) teenagers without a phone plan, 2) scammers or 3) people intending to cheat on their SO. That's just the stigma that these apps have in the United States.

 

Whenever I'm told to contact through WhatsApp, it just feels like a scam to me because of that. If I ever travel to Europe I suppose I'm SOL in communicating with anyone there though because, apparently, even businesses use WhatsApp instead of an actual phone line?

A lot of the US companies/vendors that we interact with all actually use Whatsapp, it was the first and best way to communicate easily with clients and employees anywhere in the world.

 

Don't forget robocalls are mostly scam calls, I also get unsolicited txt messages which are also scams. I couldn't tell you how many times "DHL" has sent me shipping notification txts with a link to click on, yea no thanks.

 

1 hour ago, htimsenyawed said:

The question I have is, why hasn't Europe tried to make using SMS/MMS better instead of relying on third party companies like Meta to develop messaging applications?

What is wrong with SMS in Europe? It costs next to nothing and is unlimited. The down sides of SMS are in SMS itself, that's why messaging apps exist.

 

SMS is my last choice of communication, Teams would be my first, Email, Slack, Discord, Whatsapp, phone call, SMS. In that order.

 

1 hour ago, htimsenyawed said:

 

Absolutely not. The government should not meddle in the affairs of private companies.

 

However, the people can vote with their wallets and say, "hey, why are we paying you this fee if you can't deliver us a reliable service for sending SMS/MMS or using iMessage which has SMS/MMS failover and basically requiring us to download a third party app from an ethically questionable company?"

SMS/MMS is entirely reliable in the EU etc, more so than the US. The reason you don't think there is a problem is because you have an iPhone and iMessage, you aren't talking about native and only SMS/MMS. If you actually only had that option without an App then you'd quickly realize native SMS/MMS is pretty crap and go get an App.

 

2 hours ago, saintlouisbagels said:

Overseas, texting is not unlimited unlike USA.

Eh? Yes it is.

 

UK for example

 

https://mobile.asda.com/bundles/talk-and-text

 

NZ, Aus, SEA, Jap, EU all have unlimited plans. Why do people think they do not?

[saintlouisbagels]

15 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Eh? Yes it is.

 

UK for example

 

https://mobile.asda.com/bundles/talk-and-text

 

NZ, Aus, SEA, Jap, EU all have unlimited plans. Why do people think they do not?

Probably because there are more countries in the world than that?

idk, when I talked about it on Reddit, people in other countries informed me saying that specifically SMS was still expensive. Also people incur roaming fees for SMS too.

 

Regardless. SMS = bad

[leadeater]

10 minutes ago, saintlouisbagels said:

Probably because there are more countries in the world than that?

SEA = Southeast Asia aka all of the countries (11). EU = All of European Union (27)

 

11 + 27 + 4 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 45 (fixed math / EU vs Europe error lol)

 

My list was not exactly small for the total number of countries in the world. I don't know enough to comment on the Middle East, China, Africa or Russia etc so I didn't.

 

10 minutes ago, saintlouisbagels said:

Also people incur roaming fees for SMS too.

International data roaming is a thing too, that's not free. It's probably free within the EU, don't know but likely. US & CAD (Mexico?) It's often free between NZ & Aus, but in general going to another country means everything about your phone in terms of service is no longer covered.

[Sauron]

3 hours ago, htimsenyawed said:

Absolutely not. The government should not meddle in the affairs of private companies.

Yes they should

3 hours ago, htimsenyawed said:

However, the people can vote with their wallets and say, "hey, why are we paying you this fee if you can't deliver us a reliable service for sending SMS/MMS or using iMessage which has SMS/MMS failover and basically requiring us to download a third party app from an ethically questionable company?"

Aside from the fact that ISPs are largely huge trust networks that divide territory like feudal lords, and typically own vast swaths of infrastructure in any given area meaning they can't be easily replaced (thanks privatization of publicly built infrastructure...), people have voted with their wallets and shown that they prefer having cheap internet data plans with which they can send better messages than pay less for MMS.

 

Although as @leadeater pointed out, SMS is widely available and literally or functionally unlimited in most plans. It's just worse than modern chat apps, so why use it?

[Godlygamer23]

4 hours ago, Sauron said:

Aside from going through the internet, you get features that sms simply does not have... like group chats, images/stickers, gifs (technically there's MMS for images but it's expensive and either way it doesn't work nearly as well). imessage is just apple's proprietary version of this, except it only works between iphones, so it's just... worse.

While the gist of your comment remains the same, iMessage works across all of Apple's "smart" devices, including their Macs.

[Sauron]

26 minutes ago, htimsenyawed said:

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government, and I'm here to help.

Nah, I'll usually take it over "I'm a private corporation whose goal is to make the most money possible and I'm here to offer you a deal". It partially depends on the government of course but as long as we're talking about the EU I assure you that's the better prospect.

29 minutes ago, htimsenyawed said:

ISPs are companies that are ran by people like you and me. However, even in my small town there's four ISPs available that I can choose from, three of which are fiber and one is cable. That's not counting alternatives like Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile home internet services off their cell networks.

It varies depending on the area but very often one ISP will own the local infrastructure and others will rent bandwidth on it. Sure, there can be some variance in fees and service (usually determined by how ruthless they are about selling your number to marketers) but there are hard limits on what can feasibly be offered set by the owner of the network. Where I live almost all network infrastructure is owned by one of two companies.

32 minutes ago, htimsenyawed said:

Your point about ISPs being 'feudal lords' is moot and has been beat to death, buried, dug up and beat again by people on the internet who believe in this idea of crony capitalism.

It's not "crony" capitalism. It's just capitalism. Capital tends to accumulate and consolidate in the hands of a few entities, that's the point. Your anecdote about your specific situation does not change the broader reality of networking service.

34 minutes ago, htimsenyawed said:

However, there should be an alternative to using a third party company's application to text your grandmother.

There... are...? SMS still exists. Although both my grandmothers wouldn't be able to open one so I generally just call them. Also... would you just rather have every individual phone manufacturer to ship their own version of imessage which is incompatible with every other manufacturer's devices?

39 minutes ago, htimsenyawed said:

This is why iMessage is so dominant in the United States - it's bundled with your phone, it just works.

Well, again, unless you want to use it with someone who doesn't own an apple device. What then? Is grandma just screwed because she couldn't afford the igadget, or wasn't willing to spend $1k on something she'd barely use when $100 would otherwise be enough? Even if the messaging app of choice doesn't come with the phone (although I'd bet there are more than a few that come with whatsapp preinstalled) it literally takes less than a minute to set it up for grandma, after which it makes absolutely no difference to her what the name of the app is.

[kirashi]

20 minutes ago, htimsenyawed said:

The broader reality is there no monolopy on service providers and there is nothing stopping you from starting your own service provider if you're not happy with what you have offered to you - or move.

Actually, there is. In many jurisdictions you can't just "start your own service provider" without jumping through hoops. Costs aside, many countries and their municipalities limit who's allowed to provide certain infrastructure services, preventing Mr. or Mrs. Smith from "starting their own ISP."

 

Long-short: ISPs began as independent companies before being split by government regulation. Now we're headed right back into an era of government sanctioned monopolies (aka oligopolies) as these ISPs merge into corporate capitalist giants again.

And don't even get me started on the oligopoly that was Nortel Networks.

 

[Sauron]

40 minutes ago, htimsenyawed said:

The broader reality is there no monolopy on service providers and there is nothing stopping you from starting your own service provider if you're not happy with what you have offered to you - or move.

Yeah sure, pay for bad service or move to another state or country, I bet everyone can just make that decision any day of the week. Or start a giant ISP that can compete with local oligopolies. Please.

42 minutes ago, htimsenyawed said:

I feel like you've missed the point of iMessage having an SMS/MMS failover - so even if grandma has a Jitterbug she can still receive your messages without you needing to walk her through signing up for another service and installing an application.

She can already do that by having me send her an SMS, which all phones can.

[leadeater]

7 hours ago, htimsenyawed said:

There's 54 countries in Africa... Already at a minority for EU and SEA.

Well yes but I also don't expect countries with low economic outcomes and proportionally low GDP to be competing on things like ISP and phone plans, as bad as that sounds. It's actually about how often Americans say what you did to and about people from the countries and areas I listed, it happens all the time, allll the time. America is actually not the leader when it comes to national infrastructure services like internet, phones, public transport, roads, rail etc.

 

You know what is even fewer than the 195 total, one country called the United States 

 

6 hours ago, htimsenyawed said:

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government, and I'm here to help.

I'm a private business and I have your best interest at heart is worse

[RejZoR]

@leadeater

Or worse by everyone, government or private sector, the famous "We care...". No you don't lol.

[cooky560]

At this point I just use whatsapp for my messaging needs:

 

1. It's e2e, regardless of the client device

2. It works on android, iPhone, Windows, and in any browser (OS agnostic)

3. Unlike the rest of Meta, it seems to have a sane privacy policy.

 

iMessage is nice, but given that since iOS 14 whatsapp and other apps can interact with the OS no differently to apple's native apps, the benefit of iMessage is reduced somewhat. (Indeed, if I make a call with Discord or Whatsapp in "phone" same as if I made the call as a regular call).

[cooky560]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:35 AM, leadeater said:

On 12/27/2023 at 9:11 PM, htimsenyawed said:

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government, and I'm here to help.

I'm a private business and I have your best interest at heart is worse

The government line is worse, companies only want your money, or to make money from you, no-one really knows what the government will end up doing with your data, especially as they are largely outside their own data protection rules.

[leadeater]

33 minutes ago, cooky560 said:

The government line is worse, companies only want your money, or to make money from you, no-one really knows what the government will end up doing with your data, especially as they are largely outside their own data protection rules.

No companies don't only want your money. They are functionally the same thing. A company will trade, sell, monetize, analyze any data they can get about you for whatever purpose they want and it doesn't have to be directly about money.

 

I for one in a country with a very well functioning government with strong oversights in place would trust that than any large company, especially foreign companies. I can hold my government entities to account, I have zero hope for a foreign international company and only a slight amount for a local large one and only because of the measures put in place by the government and judicial system.

 

Companies very often are the bigger problem, accountability is non-existent almost always. Just look up Nestle and baby formula in Africa, it would actually be a challenge to find a morally worse company than Nestle, actually evil and knowingly being so.