Does 14th gen use chiplets?

[Haswellx86]

How is Intel 14th gen a Raptor Lake refresh? Wasn't it supposed to be using a chiplet design for power efficiency? Clearly there is no power efficiency improvement though.

[Tetras]

1 minute ago, Hensen Juang said:

How is Intel 14th gen a Raptor Lake refresh?

They took a 13th gen "Raptor Lake" CPU, they made it a bit faster, then they printed a box with "14" on it. Hey presto.

[RONOTHAN##]

1 minute ago, Hensen Juang said:

How is Intel 14th gen a Raptor Lake refresh?

It's slightly faster for the same money. Similar to Devil's Canyon vs. Haswell, only there they didn't say it was a whole new generation. 

 

2 minutes ago, Hensen Juang said:

Wasn't it supposed to be using a chiplet design for power efficiency?

No? Intel hasn't been rumored to be going to chiplets for a while. 

[Dr. Will0hlep]

3 minutes ago, Hensen Juang said:

How is Intel 14th gen a Raptor Lake refresh? Wasn't it supposed to be using a chiplet design for power efficiency? Clearly there is no power efficiency improvement though.

A "refresh" generation is usually code for we released the same thing as before but now slightly improved.

[filpo]

6 minutes ago, Hensen Juang said:

How is Intel 14th gen a Raptor Lake refresh? Wasn't it supposed to be using a chiplet design for power efficiency? Clearly there is no power efficiency improvement though.

Clock speeds on the 13900k have gone up from 5.8 GHz to 6 GHz 

The same bump goes for the 14700k and 14600k

 

Also a slight increase in efficiency core clocks 

 

The 14700k has seen a small bump in cache (3mb more)

power has supposedly stayed the same (according to intel though that isn't strictly true) with even the 14700k being more power hungry than the 13900k

According to intel there's also 'Intel Application optimization', whatever that is

Steve and Steve from Hardware unboxed and Gamers nexus explain it (but with the same data)

[Haswellx86]

@RONOTHAN## @filpo

 

Oh, I see, Meteor Lake uses chiplets, and I was thinking 14th gen as Meteor Lake. So, 15th gen is going to be Meteor Lake?

[Failure 101]

18 minutes ago, Hensen Juang said:

@RONOTHAN## @filpo

 

Oh, I see, Meteor Lake uses chiplets, and I was thinking 14th gen as Meteor Lake. So, 15th gen is going to be Meteor Lake?

probably

[starsmine]

1 hour ago, Hensen Juang said:

How is Intel 14th gen a Raptor Lake refresh? Wasn't it supposed to be using a chiplet design for power efficiency? Clearly there is no power efficiency improvement though.

There are power efficiency improvements. That why its about to boost to higher clocks at the same power

Also chiplets are always worse for power efficiency than monolithic. The interconnects and interposers require more jouls per bit transferred. (this is offset by yields and the ability to do better binning on average)
It was never supposed to use chipsets, that was never a plan, the only change was its on silicon voltage management (hence more efficient per clock).

Total power remains the same for a similar bin chip because its using the new found power budget to push the clocks.

 

  

55 minutes ago, Hensen Juang said:

@RONOTHAN## @filpo

 

Oh, I see, Meteor Lake uses chiplets, and I was thinking 14th gen as Meteor Lake. So, 15th gen is going to be Meteor Lake?

no. MTL for desktop is being skipped. 15th gen will be Arrow Lake, along with mobile parts. 

MTL will stay a mobile-only part, like ice lake and tiger lake. (yes I know willow cove(ice lake) got backported later to be 11th gen intel dekstop). 
 

[Eigenvektor]

8 minutes ago, starsmine said:

There are power efficiency improvements. That why its about to boost to higher clocks at the same power

The HuB video I just watched told a different story. A few percent performance increase, while power usage increased massively. The word "insane" was used multiple times in the video to describe 14th gen power usage.

[Haswellx86]

@starsmine So, Arrow Lake and MTL are getting chiplets? Why did they even release 14th gen if they only needed to buy some more time? It's not like they need to release a new generation everywhere, they could have skipped 14th gen.

[starsmine]

1 hour ago, Hensen Juang said:

@starsmine So, Arrow Lake and MTL are getting chiplets? Why did they even release 14th gen if they only needed to buy some more time? It's not like they need to release a new generation everywhere, they could have skipped 14th gen.

The "more time" they needed is that MTL for desktop was canceled a year ago and Arrowlake got pushed up. They still wanted a release and there is an improvement. I question calling it a new gen, but its not a bad release if you know what the intention of it was. Its only bad in name only. but intel does not really have a naming scheme for refreshes that easily communicate better. 13th gen+?

but yes, MTL desktop was supposed to use Foveros, so expect to see their chiplets with arrow lake on desktop.

2 hours ago, Eigenvektor said:

The HuB video I just watched told a different story. A few percent performance increase, while power usage increased massively. The word "insane" was used multiple times in the video to describe 14th gen power usage.

A topped binned 13th gen and a bottom binned 14th gen chip can also explain that. Other reviewers did not see power usage increases, just stay steady. on AVERAGE 14th gen will use less power at same clocks or gain a few hundred mhz for the same power. The thing with averages is that its still a gaussian curve.

graph to demonstrate. watts needed to hit x clock. no numbers because the general shape is what is important, no idea what the overlap is. 

That said, HuBs numbers do need investigating, not that its wrong, but it would be nice to dig deeper into the sample and not just hand wave it away. 

Like this is GN's chart

and because thats higher clock the efficiency gains are there


Also, want to stress that K intel parts with raptor lake turbo till a thermal or power throttle kicks in, and says fuck you to efficiency. 
looking at the efficiency gains will be better visualized at lower clocks.

[Haswellx86]

@starsmine So, 14th gen actually has some changes to it rather just being binned higher and overclocked it? Because if so, power usage should have been a little higher, which it actually is, but for the 14700K, which has 4 more E cores, so yeah, I think there is power efficiency.

 

But what I am confused about is that I when though I am so connected to the tech news, I never heard about Intel delaying MTL or Arrow Lake or whatever. This guy made a video on MTL just 4 months ago. 

 

You should definitely check him btw. So, I just researched it seems like MTL is coming for mobile in December 2023, and for Desktops in 2024. But tbh, MTL doesn't make sense for desktops is what I think. Their main focus is to make a better and efficient system of shutting down cores for power efficiency, which is not what Desktop users want for sure. In my opinion, having a monolithic chip is better because of the direct connection between cores for performance, but yeah, if MTL has other efficiency gains (which I thinks it has), and that chiplets give you better core scaling and higher yields, then I think MTL makes sense. Also, we are getting a new node which is a W.

 

Also, do you have any idea what happened to the new naming scheme like they were gonna put Ultra in the names? Will they get that in MTL?

[starsmine]

1 hour ago, Hensen Juang said:

@starsmine So, 14th gen actually has some changes to it rather just being binned higher and overclocked it? Because if so, power usage should have been a little higher, which it actually is, but for the 14700K, which has 4 more E cores, so yeah, I think there is power efficiency.

Absolutely nothing that effects IPC. 

Its just the on-die voltage management. 

1 hour ago, Hensen Juang said:

But what I am confused about is that I when though I am so connected to the tech news, I never heard about Intel delaying MTL or Arrow Lake or whatever. This guy made a video on MTL just 4 months ago. 

 

MTL isnt delayed. it's launching on time on mobile. 
its just the desktop variant that got canceled. 

Arrow lake is not delayed or canceled. In fact they may have accelerated it by moving some of the MTL desktop team onto that project. 

1 hour ago, Hensen Juang said:

You should definitely check him btw. So, I just researched it seems like MTL is coming for mobile in December 2023, and for Desktops in 2024. But tbh, MTL doesn't make sense for desktops is what I think. Their main focus is to make a better and efficient system of shutting down cores for power efficiency, which is not what Desktop users want for sure. In my opinion, having a monolithic chip is better because of the direct connection between cores for performance, but yeah, if MTL has other efficiency gains (which I thinks it has), and that chiplets give you better core scaling and higher yields, then I think MTL makes sense. Also, we are getting a new node which is a W.

 

Also, do you have any idea what happened to the new naming scheme like they were gonna put Ultra in the names? Will they get that in MTL?

there are some AIO and some SOC desktop varients sure, but nothing like a socketable lineup. 
Ultra naming starts with MTL and forward. so 14th gen is the last "gen" of core, which may be why intel was ok mucking it up by calling this refresh a new gen. Though they have done that before with coffee lake - R