WWDC 2023: What to expect (READ FOR UPDATE)

[saltycaramel]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The immobile can tell you all about how difficult this actually is and they HAVE to do it for the rest of their lives, not sometimes. This requires lots of practice and consistency to actually be usable.

 

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Using keyboards and mouse with a headset on even with low latency visual passthrough is horrific. Same comment as above, real life isn't movies.

 

Are you basing your assumptions about what is possibile and about the user experience of Apple's Next Big Thing™ on what is available before Apple's Next Big Thing™ is released and has shown the world how it's done?

Not necessarily a wise bet.

Would have been a bad bet in 2007 one week before the iPhone was unveiled. 

 

What we know

- the world's richest company has thrown an average $1B/year for 7 years at this problem

- lately in an interview Tim Cook, pressed by the interviewer, reiterated Apple's corporate mantra "Can we make a significant contribution, in some kind of way, something that other people are not doing? Can we own the primary technology? I'm not interested in putting together pieces of somebody else's stuff. Because we want to control the primary technology. Because we know that's how you innovate." Saying this a mere two months before the unveiling of the headset.

 

Enough to be excited about what they've been cooking and to assume it's not necessarily comparable to what is already available. 

 

ps: gaze-mouse is already kinda good on the PSVR2

[saltycaramel]

40 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And? Does this actually make it a good idea. Does it make it useable. Does it make it a better experience over other options. You don't create adoption with worse experiences.

 

I can make my desktop portable with a Honda generation too, is that a good idea?

 

Not sure about what could drive adoption (maybe not even Apple knows for sure, just like with the Watch at the time of its introduction, and adjustments can be made along the way), but as an example for years some people have raved about Samsung DeX...this is like DeX but the external monitor is included in the portable device..

[hishnash]

54 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And? Does this actually make it a good idea. Does it make it useable. Does it make it a better experience over other options. You don't create adoption with worse experiences.

 

I do not expect apple to do a virtual display. if they do somthing in this space it will instead just be a continues space (full surround) were you can drag any window. Why create a facke display when apple have full stack access to the compositor on your Mac, they can just display each window anywere were you put it at whatever size you want it, and the restrictions that StageManager placed on devs (removing the ability for us devs to do things like move or position our windows directly as we used to on macOS) is a very very clear indication of how this will work.

 

On 5/25/2023 at 4:09 PM, ebprince the computer nerd said:

Rumors have surfaced indicating that Apple may be making a Mac Pro desktop with an M-Series Chipset. People have been talking about this for a long time, but it may finally come true.

I expect we will see a macPro yes,  my prediction for this is that they go with a M2-Ultra chip (or possibly M2-Extream 4 M2 Max dies, the rummer about this not happening was with respect to M1 not M2 and was that apple had delayed it to a future generation.)

I expect we will see the option to add addition GPU compute in the form of add-in MPX cards, but these will not be using AMD or NV gpus instead they will be re-using Apples M2-Ultra/Extraim silicon (chips that have cpu core defects but working GPU cores) these will operate each as dedicated GPUs each with its own (rather large memory pool).  Like the 2019 macPro devs will need to use the existing Metal apis for mutli gpu compute.  

For system memory expansion I think we might see some form of Memory extension over PCIe, this could be something as simple as a PCIe/MPX card with a load of DRAM and a controler that is mounted by the OS as a block device and used as very very fast swap. With the large on package 128GB (or 256 or even more if they use higher capacity LPDDR5/X chip stacks that are now on the market) the slow speed of PCIe based attached memory expansion can be mitigated in almost all workflows.  Doing this over PCIe pines means for users that do not need to expand memory behind the on package size they can use this bandwidth for other tasks. If apple did dedicated of package DDDR connections direct from the SOC this would in turn reduce the bandwidth that they could provide to the PCIe slots.  

 

[leadeater]

18 minutes ago, hishnash said:

I expect we will see a macPro yes,  my prediction for this is that they go with a M2-Ultra chip (or possibly M2-Extream 4 M2 Max dies, the rummer about this not happening was with respect to M1 not M2 and was that apple had delayed it to a future generation.)

I'll be rather sad not to see a M[x] Mac Pro. I'm very curious around the form factor since that will be a good indictor of future expansion options, or even current ones that'll be announced.

 

18 minutes ago, hishnash said:

I expect we will see the option to add addition GPU compute in the form of add-in MPX cards, but these will not be using AMD or NV gpus instead they will be re-using Apples M2-Ultra/Extraim silicon (chips that have cpu core defects but working GPU cores) these will operate each as dedicated GPUs each with its own (rather large memory pool).  Like the 2019 macPro devs will need to use the existing Metal apis for mutli gpu compute.  

I can see these being fully usable SoC's as well. Apple could make the interface x32 or a proprietary Apple one. Adding a card that gives you a full SoC with memory to offload tasks to that has CPU, GPU and NPU... nice. Doesn't just have to be offloading as well, could also be native full system expansion with NUMA awareness, or dual mode support so they can be independent or system aggregated. 

 

126GB/s interface between these cards should be very capable and it's possible to do better than this not sticking strictly to PCIe.

 

Edit: For context dual channel DDR5 is below 100GB/s

Edited May 28, 2023 by leadeater

[hishnash]

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I'll be rather sad not to see a M[x] Mac Pro. I'm very curious around the form factor since that will be a good indictor of future expansion options, or even current ones that'll be announced.

 

I expect it will look just the same as the current macPro.  I think it could even have more full length PCie/MPX lots as they could put the SOC on the back of the board were the DRAM is currently placed and I do not expect the current SOCs to support SATA so that area that used to be for SATA might as well have more slots.  Like with the current macPro they will use a PLX switching/retimer for the PCIe so the number of slots does not need to line up with the number of lanes from the SOC, and the bandwidth per slot is not static that can be changed depending on load etc. 
 

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I can see these being fully usable SoC's as well. Apple could make the interface x32 or a proprietary Apple one. Adding a card that gives you a full SoC with memory to offload tasks to that has CPU, GPU and NPU... nice

True, offloading regular user-space CPU tasks has issues with memory latency but they have been pushing the new distributed actor model in swift that does epxliclty enforce at a programming level concepts used in larger mutli system supper compute dispatch so would enabled apps that have cpu tasks written in this way to dispatch user-space work effectively to such cpu cores.  
 

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

 

126GB/s interface between these cards should be very capable and it's possible to do better than this not sticking strictly to PCIe.

PCIe5 is 3.94 GB/s per lane in each direction but yes they could have something a little custom (like AMDs infinity fabric over PCIe that provides some extra bandwidth).  

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, hishnash said:

PCIe5 is 3.94 GB/s per lane in each direction

Yep, 3.94 * 32 = 126 

[hishnash]

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Yep, 3.94 * 32 = 126 

Oh you think they will make the MPX slots even larger, currently they are 24 lanes.  Very possible, and if the switch they have supports routing then it could provide slot to slot connections as well so the expansion card to expansion card trafic could be nice and fast avoiding the SOC entirely for mutli gpu dispatch and memory access. But I think they might also continue to use the bridges they used on the 2019 macPro so could have further card to card bandwidth over that. 

[leadeater]

Just now, hishnash said:

Oh you think they will make the MPX slots even larger, currently they are 24 lanes.

Just spit balling since server riser slots are typically 32 lanes. The current 24 at PCIe 5.0 would give the same as very fast dual channel DDR5 so even that is very capable.

 

Apple could very well go the Nvidia DGX route if they really wanted, every card has a PCIe switch and every card as direct path to every other card for unified access. I doubt this will be the case but a full mesh system would be rather interesting.

[hishnash]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Apple could very well go the Nvidia DGX route if they really wanted, every card has a PCIe switch and every card as direct path to every other card for unified access. I doubt this will be the case but a full mesh system would be rather interesting.

I think each card will have a switch as each card might have more than one SOC on it.  Like the Duo cards on the 2019 macPro. 

[saltycaramel]

Just read the latest newsletter from Mark Gurman, still no mention of a Mac Pro.

 

Apple is planning to debut its new headset at the event, alongside the accompanying xrOS software and fresh MacBooks. There also will be updates to iOS, iPadOS, macOS, watchOS and tvOS. 

 

But since it’s a low-volume delayed-release product, it may be flying under the rumors radar…especially if they’re using the same case..

[leadeater]

17 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

Just read the latest newsletter from Mark Gurman, still no mention of a Mac Pro.

 

Apple is planning to debut its new headset at the event, alongside the accompanying xrOS software and fresh MacBooks. There also will be updates to iOS, iPadOS, macOS, watchOS and tvOS. 

 

But since it’s a low-volume delayed-release product, it may be flying under the rumors radar…especially if they’re using the same case..

If not now when is the next Apple even that would announce such a product? Or does Apple create an event whenever necessary for something like that? Other than WWDC I don't really know of other Apple events or how they do them and I don't want to look it up haha

[Forbidden Wafer]

13 hours ago, leadeater said:

Why on earth would I or anyone want Pages, Numbers etc on a VR headset?

 

That's next level useless BS you see in movies with hands waving using "virtual screens" in Iron Man/Avengers. Remember some shit that looks cool in movies is actually really, really stupid in real life 

Yup. The really useful stuff is spatial anchoring and overlaying the models. That is fantastic for engineering. You can literally see it.

 

[saltycaramel]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

If not now when is the next Apple even that would announce such a product? Or does Apple create an event whenever necessary for something like that? Other than WWDC I don't really know of other Apple events or how they do them and I don't want to look it up haha

 

The last 2 MacPros (2013 and 2019) were announced at WWDC.

 

So historically there’s reason to believe the new MacPro would be released at WWDC…of which year tho.

[HenrySalayne]

On 5/25/2023 at 6:09 AM, ebprince the computer nerd said:

Rumors have surfaced indicating that Apple may be making a Mac Pro desktop with an M-Series Chipset.

This can't be true. They just updated the Mac Pro in 2019. Computers are not meant to be updated this often!

 

 

On 5/27/2023 at 8:34 AM, saltycaramel said:

Some takes here have the potential to age so badly...

I see. You lead by example!

17 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

The Apple Reality Pro will (probably/supposedly) be 

- the first standalone headset with microOLED 4Kx4K displays (vs 2Kx2K in Quest products), that's a 4x upgrade

- the first standalone headset with laptop-grade CPU and GPU power (vs smartphone-grade SoCs in every other standalone headset)

- the first standalone headset with an advanced cooling module

- the first standalone headset with 12 camera modules plus a number of LiDARs

- the first standalone headset with iris scanning authentication

- the first standalone headset with automated motorized IPD adjustment

- the first standalone headset with a third (outward facing) display 

- the first standalone headset with a supremely low latency video capturing pipeline, to allow for the best full color transparency mode ever

- the first standalone headset with an OS worth its salt, coming with 25 top notch native first party apps (Pages, Numbers, Keynote, iMovie, GarageBand, Safari, Mail, Maps, Home, Photos, Camera, Stocks, Weather, Notes, Music, Books, Contacts, Facetime VR, Messages, Files, Freeform, Reminders, TV, Wellness, Fitness) 

- the first standalone headset to be mostly made of carbon fiber, aluminum and glass

- 16GB of LPDDR5 RAM vs 12GB in the Quest Pro

- 512GB of fast flash storage vs 256GB in the Quest Pro

 

[saltycaramel]

5 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

I see. You lead by example!

 

 

Except those are not takes but specs leaked by reputable sources

[HenrySalayne]

57 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Yup. The really useful stuff is spatial anchoring and overlaying the models. That is fantastic for engineering. You can literally see it.

 

This is nice, but BIM software is pretty focused on Windows. I don't think AR has such a high value that it will cause a mass exodus from BIM on Windows to Mac.

[saltycaramel]

23 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

This is nice, but BIM software is pretty focused on Windows. I don't think AR has such a high value that it will cause a mass exodus from BIM on Windows to Mac.

 

Who said they need to move to Mac and not just stay on Windows + have an xrOS companion app?

[WolframaticAlpha]

6 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

 

To have your full desktop 42"-display setup in a portable device that is roughly this big?

 

Any reason to pay literally double for the same thing which oculus sells for 400-500 bucks? 

7 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

Why would anyone need a desktop-grade browser on a cellphone

Show me one example of someone saying that.

 

[HenrySalayne]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

 

Who said they need to move to Mac and not just stay on Windows + have an xrOS companion app?

Can you name a single hardware product that's fully supported on Windows / Android?

Because I surely cannot!

 

[saltycaramel]

42 minutes ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

Any reason to pay literally double for the same thing which oculus sells for 400-500 bucks? 

 

Double? Try 5-6x, if the rumors are to be believed. 

That said: are you serious asking that question? "The same thing"?

For starters light office productivity and reading text is a joke on 2Kx2K displays. You need 4Kx4K. 

Your next question: "why is a Tesla pricier than a used 1997 Honda Civic"..

 

As for your archeological curiosity about the vicious iPhone-related forum fights circa 2007-2008 (I was there), plenty of people saying stuff like

- Opera Mini is good enough

- mobile data is too pricey anyway

- what's the big deal

- "We'll be fine even if the iPhone has a full web browser and we don't"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2015/05/26/blackberry-iphone-book/

- etc.

 

You don't wanna know what iPhone skepticism was like in the early days, this is nothing. 

[saltycaramel]

14 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

Can you name a single hardware product that's fully supported on Windows / Android?

Because I surely cannot!

 

 

Can you not name a single professional Windows-only program that has an iOS/iPadOS companion app? 

I'm just saying that moving the main professional program to Mac is not a requirement. 

Just have the main sit-down-at-your-desk program on Windows and sync the projects to an xrOS companion app. 

(xrOS is supposedly the name of the OS running on Apple's headset, if that wasn't clear)

[saltycaramel]

To add to that

- Apple's headset won't require you to have a Mac (unless you want to develop apps for it)

- Apple's headset won't even require you to have an iPhone, you can just buy it, wear it and setup your Apple ID from within xrOS (this is a big difference compared to Apple's last platform introduction, the Watch, which to this day requires an iPhone to be set up...although I have a feeling this may change in WatchOS 10)

 

Of course as usual there will be some perks for Apple's ecosystem existing users...like using the iPhone as a keyboard for the headset..

 

[HenrySalayne]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

To add to that

Or in other words: the implementation will be so feature incomplete that nobody outside the Apple ecosystem wants to use it. Just like we have seen before.

[hishnash]

4 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

This is nice, but BIM software is pretty focused on Windows. I don't think AR has such a high value that it will cause a mass exodus from BIM on Windows to Mac.

In the BIM space move vendors now have iPad companion apps. The expectation of clients is that they can use an iPad to lookup schematics, parts lists etc rather than paper these days and if your solution does not have an option iPad many customers will find another BIM solution.   One of the benefits of BIM software is that to the most part the file formats/DB formats it uses are interchangeable so for most solutions you can use an iPad client from another vendor even if on PC you engines might use somthign different and your geo-engining consultancy yet another tool. 

So yes you can absolutly expect there to be BIM compatible tools for the headset very quickly, I know of at least one major vendor in the geo-engining side of BIM tooling that has prototyping ARKit products for years waiting for the header to ship and their main product is windows only $50k/year per user. 

[saltycaramel]

13 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

Or in other words: the implementation will be so feature incomplete that nobody outside the Apple ecosystem wants to use it. Just like we have seen before.

 

Or in other words: uhm what. 

 

Let's at least wait to see what xrOS is all about before opening the (unsurprising) Apple-bashing dances

 

Feature-incomplete "like you've seen before"?

 

I'll tell you what I've seen: in the post-PC era, Apple was only ever truly challenged on the smartphone front, by Android smartphones.

Tablets? Nope, every non-iPad tablet is feature-incomplete compared to an iPad.

Smart watches? Nope, nothing compares to an Apple watch.

ARM-based laptops/desktops? Nope.

Smartphones smartphones smartphones, only smartphones. 

 

Not sure what you've seen before, I've seen Apple dominating in every new personal device category after smartphones.

 

In the MR headset space, so far I've seen Microsoft killing Hololens3 and Meta disbanding their 300-people team working on "XROS" (their now abandoned ambitious non-Android-based headset OS). 

Now those companies are assembling the Avengers of MR (team Microsoft+Meta and team Google+Samsung) to go up against Apple's headset, we'll see how they'll manage to fare by joining forces.