Big questions about mobile and regular cameras

[Lenovich]

^{sorry for simplified english}

So right now we got 2 separate markets. DSLR(mirrorless) cameras, and mobile phone camera markets. The phone market dominates over regular cameras. Gap photo in quality closed at least in 2015. But lenses on mobile phones, one word. Weak.

 

Moving to my questions, first we must learn what they are. What can give you a mobile camera or good photo camera? Let's compare a good mobile phone(M), a consumer camera(C), and a good camera(G). For comparison, mobile phone wil be Realme pro 8, consumer camera: Canon EOS 600D, good camera: Nikon Z5 

 

Weight: 

M: 0.176 Kg 

C: 0.730 Kg (body 0.515 Kg + kit lenses 0.215 Kg)

G:  1.09 Kg (body 0.590 Kg + kit lenses 0.500 Kg)

 

First conclusion: As all photographers say, a good camera is a camera that you carry with you all the time. As you can see, there is no way to take an ordinary camera with you every day. Just an impossible task.

 

Pricing(EU market):

M: $270

C: $280 (kit version)

G: $1920 (body + 24-70 z mount lenses)

 

Second conclusion: Quality costs money. And there is the first question: for whom camera makers selling basic mirror cameras?

 

Picture quality:

In megapixels and, in my rating from 0 to 10. 1 is a laptop webcam camera. 10 is a medium format digital camera.

M: 108 MP(effective 20 MP) 6/10 (it can be 8/10 more on this later)

C: 18,7 MP 5/10

G: 24,93 MP 8/10

 

Third conclusion: Today's gap in quality between the smallest less 1" sensors and full frame sensors is almost invisible. Mobile cameras can have high ISO manual control shoot in RAW have additional "ai" processing. The real weakness in mobile phone cameras is their lenses. So my phone can shoot pictures like Z nikon but, only with good lenses. I not begging for periscope style camera lenses for mobiles they are not good nowadays. Even if they can bee good there is a limitation the stability because of camera weight. There is a solution, I will tell you about what it is after final conclusion.

 

Conclusion: Question 1. Why do basic cameras exist? Question 2. Why is there a huge gap in pricing for quality? Question 3. Why do mobile phones do not have decent lenses? Even if they have 1, 2 or camera modules, why not make long focus module without periscope style? 70mm equivalent on mobile will be enough for perfect portraits. All those fake bokeh is just broken because of the wider angles of main phone lenses. Question 4 whe there is no solution between pricing and mobility of cameras?

There was solution back in 2015. The DxO CAM01 an additional 20 MP camera for iphone. The camera  can do both, fit in better device a smaller lenses and fit better sensor. 

 

What is your thoughts?

[emosun]

13 minutes ago, Lenovich said:

What is your thoughts?

buy a phone if you dont care about photos and buy a camera if you care about photos. pretty straight forward.

[Jaxrebel]

Camera will always be easier regardless of size if you need maximum creative controll.

Mobile can obviously be used in that way but less controll because everything from missing buttons and controll for quick change of function/feature.

 

Myself i have both a Nikon D800 not been used since 2015 to heavy but o so fun to use.

also a nikon consumer mirrorles small and nice but still extra stuff to bring with, so myself i get enough quality for my intention to use a Iphone 13 pro in my case for 

everyday shooting but im no pro if a where question would be diffrent.

 

Mobile phones will get better lenses but i dont expect bigger ones will make phone to big=same issue with bringing a camera at that point.

 

 

[Lenovich]

7 minutes ago, emosun said:

buy a phone if you dont care about photos and buy a camera if you care about photos. pretty straight forward.

I do care about photos. Some people just don't ready to cary a bag with gear. It is becomes work and not hobby. 50 mm eqv, lenses can do a lot for both photo worlds. 

[Lenovich]

9 minutes ago, Jaxrebel said:

but less controll because everything from missing buttons and controll for quick change of function/feature.

 

Maybe if camera have less quality control, then you got more creative control?

[emosun]

14 minutes ago, Lenovich said:

I do care about photos. Some people just don't ready to cary a bag with gear. It is becomes work and not hobby. 50 mm eqv, lenses can do a lot for both photo worlds. 

then get a phone , nobody here is going to force you to like one or the other

[Blue4130]

3 hours ago, Lenovich said:

, why not make long focus module without periscope style? 70mm equivalent on mobile will be enough for perfect portraits.

Because people don't want their phone to be an inch thick.

[saintlouisbagels]

10 hours ago, Lenovich said:

70mm equivalent on mobile will be enough for perfect portraits.

… have you not used a modern smartphone?

The 3x Telephoto lens on the iPhone 14 is equivalent to 77mm, and countless other smartphones already have roughly equivalent cameras that meet this criteria.

I don’t know how it is for other phones, but if you use Portrait mode on an iPhone, it automatically switches to the telephoto lens. Because obviously.

 

10 hours ago, Lenovich said:

All those fake bokeh is just broken because of the wider angles of main phone lenses.

Uh no. If you’re standing too far away and taking a wide angle shot, then obviously you’re not going to get bokeh.

Again, have you used a modern smartphone? I believe MKBHD did a smartphone roundup some years back and noticed that Samsung sensors have gotten big enough to produce natural bokeh (and that average viewers actually don’t like it).

 

Use 2x/3x zoom if you want real bokeh and subject-background separation. You’re spouting ignorance.

 

10 hours ago, Lenovich said:

50 mm eqv, lenses can do a lot for both photo worlds. 

lol no. Hand an average person a camera with 50mm focal length and they’re definitely going to complain that the picture too damn zoomed in. It is completely unusable in most settings because you need to back up absurdly far compared to someone snapping away on their phone. People have gotten extremely complacent with regular wide angle photos being ~24mm. 

[Lenovich]

11 hours ago, saintlouisbagels said:

You’re spouting ignorance.

I tried huawei P series with tele lenses. they are not good. Fake bokeh effect to much fake. look at those samples from internet: everything above 3x zoom just a digital zoom

[Lenovich]

11 hours ago, saintlouisbagels said:

You’re spouting ignorance.

What are you talking about? Iphone portraits never can be any good as portraits made with decent lenses. It is marketing speaks with you. I do not change my opinion, phone cameras needs a better lenses.

[saintlouisbagels]

5 minutes ago, Lenovich said:

I tried huawei P series with tele lenses. they are not good. Fake bokeh effect to much fake.
look at those samples from internet: everything above 3x zoom just a digital zoom

You're asking for two different things.

You're looking for a phone with ~70mm focal length. That's something smartphones already do optically. We're not talking about above 3x zoom - that's longer than ~70mm.

You want a phone with real bokeh. You're not going to get that with improved optics. You need a bigger image sensor which is completely impractical unless the phone manufacturer prioritizes only a single lens system which won't go well with normal smart phone consumers. And what focal length would that single image be fixed at? 24mm wide angle? Well we're back at the same issue of having bad bokeh. 50mm? Way too close. 35mm ? maybe.

[Lenovich]

11 hours ago, saintlouisbagels said:

they’re definitely going to complain that the picture too damn zoomed in

just asking, are we on same page? Camera phones have 2 or more modules. Why second module can't be 50mm f1.7 equivalent? 

 

For example, my Real me pro 8 have 4 sensors 3 of then in most cases usless. 1 main, 2 macro, 3 ultra wide. 4 phase detection focus helper.

[saintlouisbagels]

4 minutes ago, Lenovich said:

What are you talking about? Iphone portraits never can be any good as portraits made with decent lenses. It is marketing speaks with you. I do not change my opinion, phone cameras needs a better lenses.

Very nice.

Two extreme example to prove your point.

The woman in your picture has her picture taken with a great background that emphasize depth and the picture of the man has him standing at the same depth as a piece of lumber and zero background depth information.

[Lenovich]

3 minutes ago, saintlouisbagels said:

You're asking for two different things.

You're looking for a phone with ~70mm focal length. That's something smartphones already do optically. We're not talking about above 3x zoom - that's longer than ~70mm.

You want a phone with real bokeh. You're not going to get that with improved optics. You need a bigger image sensor which is completely impractical unless the phone manufacturer prioritizes only a single lens system which won't go well with normal smart phone consumers. And what focal length would that single image be fixed at? 24mm wide angle? Well we're back at the same issue of having bad bokeh. 50mm? Way too close. 35mm ? maybe.

No, i do not want bigger smartphone or anythig, I just asking question why shold I pay more for big bulky pro camera if it is possible made a secong device like Dx0 cam. with bigger sensor, better optics etc. I did no see any limitatition with current state of modern cameras.

[Lenovich]

9 minutes ago, saintlouisbagels said:

depth as a piece of lumber and zero background depth information.

maybe its because great portraits made with iphone did not exists? Maybe its because so caled portrait mode work only with shoulder - high portraits?

[saintlouisbagels]

3 minutes ago, Lenovich said:

maybe its because great portraits made with iphone did not exists? Maybe its because so caled portrait mode work only with shoulder - high portraits?

Buddy that's a skill issue. Not a camera issue.

[Lenovich]

3 minutes ago, saintlouisbagels said:

Not a camera issue.

then show me good iphone portrait not in shoulder - high framing. I guaratee this type of portraits does not exists, because of Iphone limitation. Get me right, those protrait modes in practical photography cause limits in your creativity.

[Vilacom]

On 5/24/2023 at 2:26 PM, Lenovich said:

No, i do not want bigger smartphone or anythig, I just asking question why shold I pay more for big bulky pro camera if it is possible made a secong device like Dx0 cam. with bigger sensor, better optics etc. I did no see any limitatition with current state of modern cameras.

I mean, you’re looking for a complex answer but there is an extremely simple one, there isn’t the demand for it.  The company that produced the Dx0 went out of business, clearly not a lot of people wanted to pay an extra $400 to make their phone cameras marginally better. 

Like you said, the gap between phone cameras and DSLR/Mirrorless has closed a tremendous amount, quality lenses are expensive.  A full frame nifty 50 costs $200 and that doesn’t need to be miniaturized and made to work seamlessly with a phone.  99% of people who have an iPhone couldn’t care less about actual portrait performance since they are looking to just capture a memory, not make a piece of art.  Why pay an extra 15-20% for a phone that they’d almost never realize the difference.  There have been attempts to make phones with extremely high quality cameras in them, they fail and fail impressively.  Pro’s dont want to be limited to a single lens(especially an f/1.8) and everyone else just wants to be able to take a decent shot that they can glance at.  

Don’t overthink things too much, if something that existed no longer exists and has never been attempted again then its probably because either there isn’t a market for it or it can’t be produced for a low enough cost for the market that exists.