Toroidal Fan

[Lockie85]

Hey,

 

I'd love to see a video on the application of the toroidal propeller within a PC (toroidal fan). There seems to be limited conversation and content (videos) on the subjects outside of propellers for drones and boats/ships.

 

Given the potential here, I'd love to see Linus dive into this subject, the ifs, whats, whys etc. 

 

I wondered if anyone else would like to see this topic covered and perhaps if there was significant interest in the content it might occur?

[Eigenvektor]

Here's some content for you

https://hackaday.com/2023/02/06/spy-drone-propeller-makes-for-a-quite-pc/

 

 

For video suggestions, you should go here:

 

[Leandro Fernandes]

I'd love to see Linus's take on it, but if you want to see results, Major Hardware already covered toroidal fans and I think performance wasn't that great.

[Poinkachu]

After watching those two video @Eigenvektor linked, my take is that that type of fan blade seems more suited to usage without any obstruction, which we have quite a lot in PC.

 

Both noise level & CFM is pretty weak compared to Noctua, while the cost of making & maintaining quality standard with such shape might be substantially higher.

Companies that are into or specializing in pc fans (Like Noctua, and maybe Lian-Li since the latter always seems to be interested in new type of stuffs) probably already tried it in their lab and it doesn't pass either their standard or production cost limit.

[Eigenvektor]

2 hours ago, Poinkachu said:

After watching those two video @Eigenvektor linked, my take is that that type of fan blade seems more suited to usage without any obstruction, which we have quite a lot in PC.

Yes. Their performance in open air/water is great, but they don't seem to perform well in an environment where their current is forced through a funnel. A shame really, less noise would be welcome, but as you said I'm sure fan companies have experimented with this already and concluded it isn't worth it. Otherwise, there would've been a rush to bring this to market (unless patents are in the way…)

[Lockie85]

3 hours ago, Eigenvektor said:

Here's some content for you

https://hackaday.com/2023/02/06/spy-drone-propeller-makes-for-a-quite-pc/

 

 

For video suggestions, you should go here:

 

I'd seen these videos. They were the "limited conversation and content (videos)" I was referring to. Certainly an interesting take and perspective, equally it's only one or two perspectives which is why I'd love to see more thought on the subject.

[Lockie85]

42 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

Yes. Their performance in open air/water is great, but they don't seem to perform well in an environment where their current is forced through a funnel. A shame really, less noise would be welcome, but as you said I'm sure fan companies have experimented with this already and concluded it isn't worth it. Otherwise, there would've been a rush to bring this to market (unless patents are in the way…)

I'd also wonder about patents getting in the way and that perhaps it could be better in specific builds, alignments etc. But due to the difficulty of getting it to market we'd not seen it. Given that advancements might only initially come from enthusiast with the ability to 3D print I figured the more iterations by enthusiast might equal a higher chance of discovering the secret sauce that others could duplicate at home.

[Poinkachu]

2 hours ago, Lockie85 said:

I'd also wonder about patents getting in the way and that perhaps it could be better in specific builds, alignments etc. But due to the difficulty of getting it to market we'd not seen it. Given that advancements might only initially come from enthusiast with the ability to 3D print I figured the more iterations by enthusiast might equal a higher chance of discovering the secret sauce that others could duplicate at home.

Well, if companies like Noctua did test it, they for sure would make a ton of iterations & variations.

I mean, that company pride themselves & existing pretty much just with how powerful & quiet their fans are, if there's a way to make a more silent one than the one they currently using, I think they would try it already.

 

Even when DIYing something I make multiple sketches & blueprints then logically think which one is better for my usage. I'd 3d print if I own a 3d printer.

 

But yep, there's also production cost management, making something that shapely more convoluted / sophisticated gonna require more money, at the very least for quality control.

They could just go ham with the production cost limit, but that will result in a very expensive fan, in which most people gonna scold them with.

If so, at most it will just be a niche product for a select amount of people.

I like quiet fans but if it means I need to spend a whole lot more money for just 1 fan.... it can burn and I'll stick with standard noctua, which already quite expensive IMO.

[TPCEA]

I think Major Hardware might have done more than 2 videos about novel fan propeller/vane designs. Did either of those have one that melted and another that flew off?

[thrasher_565]

the sound come front the edge of the blade thats why closer the better. nutura clames there is the closet. thow probably fans with blade rings might be better.

but if you want quiet you need a bigger fan. or water cool.

thow toy could go wider fan like the t30 but the prefromace per droller is probly not good.

[Victor_J]

On 5/3/2023 at 11:46 AM, Poinkachu said:

After watching those two video @Eigenvektor linked, my take is that that type of fan blade seems more suited to usage without any obstruction, which we have quite a lot in PC.

I'm no physicist, but having watched a couple of videos about toroidal propellers I suspect it's a bad blade design for most fans. Why? Because what makes them quieter is that they dissipate the air more evenly and broadly than the whip-cracky way traditional propellers do, but when it comes to fans that's not what we want. We use fans because we want to move air either to or from a specific location, and ideally get it (and the heat it carries) as far away from where it was before as possible (withing reasonable noise levels). Right now the toroidal fan seems very much like a sniping with a shotgun in a video game to me.

 

Not saying there can't be some toroidal design that would give us some awesome benefits, but it would probably take a quite a lot of time and effort by actual fan makers, rather than just copying propeller designs. What's the difference between a vehicle propeller and a PC fan? The purpose of the former is to propel the thing it is attached to through a medium. The purpose of the latter is to move parts of the medium it is in past the thing it is attached to. They seems similar on a surface level, but their goals and ideal outcomes are very different. Propeller makers aren't that concerned with where the medium goes after it's lost contact with the blade and fan makers aren't expecting their products to move anything. Neither likes the byproduct that is the noise, but the solution to that has to start with their respective goals in mind.