About GPU memory bus.

[Winterlight]

2 minutes ago, WereCat said:

Well yes, that's why I am saying this for the 3rd time... check my first reply where you can see direct comparison within the same architecture where the only difference is memory bandwidth and VRAM amount (which does not play the role as it's enough).

I understand what you mean but I just want say that higer memory bus is not always mean higher total memory bandwidth.

[Agall]

1 minute ago, Winterlight said:

I understand what you mean but I just want say that higer memory bus is not always mean higher total memory bandwidth.

Well obviously yes, but you're comparing different architectures and lithography, and potentially higher bandwidth memory, even if both are DDR6/DDR6x.

[Sir Beregond]

1 hour ago, Winterlight said:

I'm not tech expert but I'm really not understand why a lot people spread a bit misleading information about GPU memory bus ?
Especially than talk about 4070 Ti and it's 192 bit bus.  Why so many people say that memory bus affect GPU performance ? Sure it affect but is not that simple as it look. Memory bus it self don't have impact on GPU performance only memory bandwidth actually can affect performance that is depends from bus and memory type, frequency. That is really misleading say that 192 bit is bottlenck in 4070 Ti even that GPU have 192 bit bus it still have slightly higher memory bandwight compred too 3070 Ti.

Some example

4070 Ti - 192 bit - 504 GB/s

3070 Ti - 256 bit - 448 GB/s

4080 - 256 bit - 716 GB/s

7900 XT- 320 bit 800 GB/s 

That show that GPU in lower bus sometime still have higher memory bandwidth. Especially upcoming GDRR7 will be massive improvent we will  probably see than 128 bit bus give nbetter menmory basndwight than odl GPU with GDDR6X with 256 bit for example.

You're right, you are not an expert.

 

Memory bandwidth is incredibly important so that it does not become a bottleneck for the GPU to perform. Where you will see this is as you go up in resolution, especially to 4k. And that's why you see the 192-bit interface of the 4070 Ti actually keeps its performance from scaling properly at 4k vs 1080p and 1440p, thus the memory interface is the bottleneck. It's more than just that GB/s number you posted. It's how wide is the road that allows the GPU to communicate with the VRAM, and as you increase in resolution which is of exponential scaling (1440p is not quite 2x from 1080p, 4k is 4x 1440p pixels), it becomes increasingly important to also have a wider road.

 

To an extent, larger on die caches do help compensate. We see that with RDNA2 and 3's Infinity Cache, and with Lovelace's massive increase in L2 cache. However, this does not entirely solve the problem, and we see RDNA3 bumped up to a 384-bit bus from the 256-bit of RDNA2, for the exact reason that people criticize the 4070 Ti for. It's performance didn't scale to 4k from 1440p due to memory interface bottlenecking the performance scaling.

[Winterlight]

17 minutes ago, Sir Beregond said:

You're right, you are not an expert.

 

Memory bandwidth is incredibly important so that it does not become a bottleneck for the GPU to perform. Where you will see this is as you go up in resolution, especially to 4k. And that's why you see the 192-bit interface of the 4070 Ti actually keeps its performance from scaling properly at 4k vs 1080p and 1440p, thus the memory interface is the bottleneck. It's more than just that GB/s number you posted. It's how wide is the road that allows the GPU to communicate with the VRAM, and as you increase in resolution which is of exponential scaling (1440p is not quite 2x from 1080p, 4k is 4x 1440p pixels), it becomes increasingly important to also have a wider road.

 

To an extent, larger on die caches do help compensate. We see that with RDNA2 and 3's Infinity Cache, and with Lovelace's massive increase in L2 cache. However, this does not entirely solve the problem, and we see RDNA3 bumped up to a 384-bit bus from the 256-bit of RDNA2, for the exact reason that people criticize the 4070 Ti for. It's performance didn't scale to 4k from 1440p due to memory interface bottlenecking the performance scaling.

But lets be realistic xx70 series is not GPU that you should use for 4K especially with max graphic settings and for 1440p I had 2080 that can run any AAA game with max settings without RT ON at playable FPS and that old GPU had only 8 GB VRAM and less bandwight. Conclusion 4070 Ti is more than enough to play any game at 1440p.

[Sir Beregond]

2 minutes ago, Winterlight said:

But lets be realistic xx70 series is not GPU that you should use for 4K especially with max graphic settings and for 1440p I had 2080 that can run any AAA game with max settings without RT on at playable FPS.

Then why is it $800+. What a time to be alive. $800+ for 1080p and 1440p cards. 

 

To answer your other question about why the 3070 Ti and 4070 Ti have different bandwidths, it's not just cache. 3070 Ti uses 19Gbps GDDR6X, while the 4070 Ti uses 21Gbps GDDR6X.

[Winterlight]

1 minute ago, Sir Beregond said:

Then why is it $800+. What a time to be alive. $800+ for 1080p and 1440p cards. 

 

To answer your other question about why the 3070 Ti and 4070 Ti have different bandwidths, it's not just cache. 3070 Ti uses 19Gbps GDDR6X, while the 4070 Ti uses 21Gbps GDDR6X.

Well price is high but actually in most case it better than 3090 Ti at 1440p and peopel really need stop dream about GPU price that been 4-5 year ago. So sad but price for everything go up with years not just GPU even food become more expensive with years.

[Sir Beregond]

2 minutes ago, Winterlight said:

Well price is high but actually in most case it better than 3090 Ti at 1440p and peopel really need stop dream about GPU price that been 4-5 year ago. So sad but price for everything go up with years not just GPU even food become more expensive with years.

Or not buy this stuff at inflated prices which it did in ONE generation. Supply/demand would fix that eventually and if it doesn't, the companies should be investigated.

 

Anyway, not really sure what the point of this thread is if its just devolving to justifying BS pricing for some reason like a massive corporate entity needs white-knighting from consumers.

 

To go back to the premise of your initial question. Memory bandwidth matters for higher resolutions to not bottleneck the GPU's performance scaling. The end.

[Zando_]

1 hour ago, Winterlight said:

4070 Ti - 192 bit - 504 GB/s

3070 Ti - 256 bit - 448 GB/s

4070 Ti is a far, far, far faster GPU than the 3070 Ti. It's about equal with a 3090 or 3090 Ti. People complain about the VRAM bandwidth because it's an issue with a GPU core this fast at 4K (as others have pointed out already) which this card is definitely a candidate for given its performance, so it impacts a reasonable use of the card. Yes, memory speed also effects bandwidth, not just bus, bus is just the simplest thing to point to when highlighting that it should have more VRAM bandwidth. Not misleading at all to say that it effects performance. 

[Blademaster91]

19 minutes ago, Winterlight said:

Well price is high but actually in most case it better than 3090 Ti at 1440p and peopel really need stop dream about GPU price that been 4-5 year ago. So sad but price for everything go up with years not just GPU even food become more expensive with years.

I don't really see why the 4070Ti beating the 3090Ti in some games as a point to defend the 4070Ti as a card worth buying, its not IMO. The 4070Ti at the price and tier is just an upsell to the 4080, considering the 4070Ti die size, bandwidth, and core count, it should be a 4060Ti.

The midrange card used to be expected to better than the previous high end card, and the prices would go down if people would simply stop buying overpriced cards.  This card should be cheaper than the 3070Ti because its using a smaller die, and most cards are using a smaller PCB with less components on it, but Jensen wants their 60% margins which is also a reason why EVGA left the GPU market, AIB's can't compete on price and still make a profit so they're forced to price cards even higher.

  The 4000 cards except the 4090 aren't worth buying and prices are higher than the rate of inflation, Nvidia is being very anti-consumer with these cards and I think anyone considering a 4070Ti should either buy used, or consider an AMD or Intel card.

[Sir Beregond]

Fact of the matter is, the 4070 Ti having such a lower bus width is capping its potential 4k performance in terms of what the GPU itself is capable of. And for a card that often sells north of $850, that really is pretty crap. 3090 and 3090 Ti are 4k cards, so I find the comparisons to those cards kinda pointless when at 4k you are leaving room on the table with a. 4070 Ti. 

 

The only thing the 4070 Ti has going for it is the fact it has 3090/3090 Ti level performance at a much reduced power draw. But then they kill that with the pricing.

 

Also if you look at where it sits in the silicon stack, it is third tier Lovelace consumer silicon. For those not aware how that works, for Lovelace you have starting at the top - AD102 (this is the 4090 silicon), AD103 (4080 silicon), and 4070 Ti (AD104 silicon). Any other generation the third tier silicon would be 60-class products. Hell, go back far enough (like Fermi and Tesla days), and 60-class branded products were second tier silicon, or sometimes cut-down first tier.

 

My how far we've fallen.

[Winterlight]

Gaming at 4K is stupid especially on monitor that simple have too small screen size to get benefit from 4K and again xx70 series is never been target for 4K epsecially with max settings. I had 4K monitor 27 inch but sold it and get new 1440p 32 inch can't even tell diference especially while paly games. Difference is very low that is hard too tell and than you play games you can't even see it.

[Sir Beregond]

2 minutes ago, Winterlight said:

Gaming at 4K is stupid especially on monitor that simple have too small screen size to get benefit from 4K and again xx70 series is never been target for 4K epsecially with max settings. I had 4K monitor 27 inch but sold it and get new 1440p 32 inch can't even tell diference especially while paly games. Difference is very low that is hard too tell and than you play games you can't even see it.

Good for you?