Intel 13th Gen VS AMD Ryzen 7000 (Why you may want to WAIT)

[Deadpool2onBlu-Ray]

9 hours ago, WallacEngineering said:

I mean thats what has been happening with the new 13900K. While the AMD chips dynamically boost, the 13900K just goes until it throttles, and then dials back.

 

Hardware Unboxed showed that even on a 420mm Liquid AIO, the 13900K throttles even in gaming loads, doesn't even have to be an All-Core load, just playing CyberPunk 2077 is enough to throttle on the 13900K.

 

Perhaps the behavior is garbage because the heat just ramps up too quickly and dynamic boosting just doesn't work? Keep in mind that if you run a 7950X stock out of box, it pulls around 180 Watts and the 13900K pulls over 300 Watts.

 

Yes you read that correctly, the new 13900K is such a power hog that it consumes nearly DOUBLE the power of AMDs most powerful 16C/32T Chip. No wonder the damn thing throttles. Everyone is already struggling to properly cool Ryzen 7000 series, how exactly is the system supposed to perform when a 180W CPU is already maxing out your cooling solution and now all of a sudden you are asked to somehow deal with another 75% of wattage/heat load.

 

 

Dynamic Boost/PBO is a lot of the reason I went with AMD this time around. Ryzen Master is fun to play with

[WallacEngineering]

On 10/21/2022 at 5:22 AM, PaulFCB said:

 How does it pull 300W? You are just mixing numbers up.

 

 It might peak at 360W if you stress test it and in those situatios the 7950X would go above 300 itself. But in gaming I’m pretty sure it doesn’t pull anything close to that, techpowerup measured an average at 118W at stock in 12 games. 
 

 Also, doubt it throttles in gaming, that must be a bad mount or ill intentioned review there.

No, its not made up. Hardware unboxed recorded 315 watts max in his review. Of course thats not gaming, thats CineBench R23.

 

Of course a limited thread gaming load won't max out the CPU, but he did also find it throttling in Cyberpunk 2077 despite not loading all the cores or pulling max 300 watts.

 

Gamers Nexus recorded 295 Watts in their review. Seriously go watch the temps and power draws parts of testing before claiming things you don't know.

 

Whats even more hysterical is the new 13600K has been tested by Gamers Nexus at 185 Watts. LOL a freaking i5 pulls nearly 200 watts, seriously go watch his tests.

[WallacEngineering]

On 10/21/2022 at 5:22 AM, PaulFCB said:

 How does it pull 300W? You are just mixing numbers up.

 

 It might peak at 360W if you stress test it and in those situatios the 7950X would go above 300 itself. But in gaming I’m pretty sure it doesn’t pull anything close to that, techpowerup measured an average at 118W at stock in 12 games. 
 

 Also, doubt it throttles in gaming, that must be a bad mount or ill intentioned review there.

Here you go, recorded SYSTEM power draw during blender rendering. So with ZERO GPU load, his system pulled just under 500 watts

 

Yes, it pulls 140 watts more than the Ryzen 7950X, whether you believe it or not, its the truth.

 

So basically, if you want to cool a 13900K, you have to keep in mind that you are essentially trying to cool BOTH a Ryzen 7950X AND a Ryzen 7700X with a SINGLE COOLER. Maybe with that analogy people will begin to understand just how bad this problem really is.

 

 

[WallacEngineering]

Well now that the 13900K has been out a few a days, Im sure most of you have been able to figure out why the power draw on 13900K reviews varied so wildly. The TLDR is that its because Intel 13th Gen is so incredibly inefficient compared to Ryzen 7000 that in order to take back the gaming crown, Intel got desperate and decided to smash through all reasonable power limits with a freaking sledgehammer and just send as much power through as a given system will allow.

 

Like AMD Ryzen 7000, the 13900K targets its Absolute maximum temperature of 100°C and simply gives you "unlimited" power until you get there. The reason AMD doesn't vary so badly is because there is only so much more power a Ryzen 7000 chip can consume before it runs into a wall and just can't consume any more, although Ryzen 7000 tests do vary a bit themselves. Also Ryzen 7000 just isn't as hot therefore you get less headroom with bigger and bigger coolers.

 

So if a reviewer reviewed all systems on air cooling, then they got significantly less power draw. Hardware Unboxed reviewed all compared systems on a  large 360mm AIO, so he got some additional overhead and the CPU decided to draw over 300 watts.

 

So basically Intel took back the gaming crown by lifting IPC a bit, and then just smashing all sensible power expectations by going "you know what, screw it, if we are still stuck on 10nm node and need to somehow win, then just allow basically literally unlimited power draw and we will win".

 

Regardless, the behavior on the Intel side is still bad and still a problem, because again, in order to actually cool the chip well enough for it to actually find its power limit and stop throttling, you literally need like a custom liquid cooling loop JUST for the CPU with like twin 360mm radiators. Thats so unbelievably bad that I don't even know how to describe how terrible that really is lol

[Ralf]

My issue is that there are still barely any motherboard with two usable PCIe slots at the bottom that the big gpu's dont block. Like the MSI Pro B660-A or the ASRock Z690 Extreme are my only somewhat good options. Furthermore, they still use the faulty lan chips from 2019-2020.

 

With 5800X3D or 13600k DDR4 it will be harder to upgrade ram later, for 7600X and 13600k DDR5 I can either get cheap and slow 5200-5600 ram or fast 6000-6400 for almost double the price(which seems like a waste of money when we get 10000-12000MHz ram in a few years).

My idea was to sell my cpu(150€ if i'm lucky) and ram(100€) and buy a 13600K or KF(370-400€), Z690 Extreme(275€) and 2x16GB 3600MHz(150€). But everything get more expensive each day, the mobo costs already 20€ more.

[WallacEngineering]

8 hours ago, Ralf said:

My issue is that there are still barely any motherboard with two usable PCIe slots at the bottom that the big gpu's dont block. Like the MSI Pro B660-A or the ASRock Z690 Extreme are my only somewhat good options. Furthermore, they still use the faulty lan chips from 2019-2020.

 

With 5800X3D or 13600k DDR4 it will be harder to upgrade ram later, for 7600X and 13600k DDR5 I can either get cheap and slow 5200-5600 ram or fast 6000-6400 for almost double the price(which seems like a waste of money when we get 10000-12000MHz ram in a few years).

My idea was to sell my cpu(150€ if i'm lucky) and ram(100€) and buy a 13600K or KF(370-400€), Z690 Extreme(275€) and 2x16GB 3600MHz(150€). But everything get more expensive each day, the mobo costs already 20€ more.

 

I didn't realize prices were going up right now, I thought all the stock issues from the chip shortage were over at this point.

 

I would just wait a month or two, maybe see what Ryzen 7800X3D brings to the table. Initial launch prices are always way high.

[Mister Woof]

On 10/22/2022 at 12:31 PM, WallacEngineering said:

Here you go, recorded SYSTEM power draw during blender rendering. So with ZERO GPU load, his system pulled just under 500 watts

 

Yes, it pulls 140 watts more than the Ryzen 7950X, whether you believe it or not, its the truth.

 

So basically, if you want to cool a 13900K, you have to keep in mind that you are essentially trying to cool BOTH a Ryzen 7950X AND a Ryzen 7700X with a SINGLE COOLER. Maybe with that analogy people will begin to understand just how bad this problem really is.

 

 

The guy said "in gaming" and your rebuttal is blender load?

 

In games, it's not really that significant. Moreso for the 13600K, and likely for the 13700k which will be similar to the 12900k.

 

 

The E-cores are mostly IMO there for on-paper fluff....most gamers are gonna ignore them or turn them off anyway. They aren't ever going to push these CPUs to 100%

 

People who want productivity will just get the Ryzens.

[ManemeJeff]

On 10/21/2022 at 2:50 AM, Coolmaster said:

The chips being at 95C isn't that big a deal, laptop CPUs are almost always at 95. They still are faster than previous generations even if they are thermally throttling. Honestly they should let cpus draw as much power as they can without frying themselves, as long as they have thermal headroom and the motherboard and PSU can supply it, otherwise they're just leaving performance on the table. And when gaming they draw ~100W, which isn't a problem for any decent cooler. The only mistake I see is AMD's thick IHS, which there may be other engineering considerations for.

If your notebook always runs at 95C, you definitely need to RMA that brick.

That's not normal mate, that's a damn death trap.

 

Hopefully you don't live in an apartment complex.

[Ralf]

On 10/26/2022 at 11:15 PM, WallacEngineering said:

I didn't realize prices were going up right now, I thought all the stock issues from the chip shortage were over at this point.

 

I would just wait a month or two, maybe see what Ryzen 7800X3D brings to the table. Initial launch prices are always way high.

They are, at least here. B550 Tomahawk was going for 115 earlier this year, now it's 245. Strix A was 135, now 230. SP11 1200W psu was 190, now 300+. I feel like an idiot not getting a nice B550 board(more m.2, PCIe 4.0, ReBar) and waiting for 5800X3D to drop below 360.

[WallacEngineering]

Well, we finally know what it takes to properly cool an i9-13900K thanks to Linus today.

 

So I mean, at this point, there's no real way to argue against it - Intel 13th gen has SIGNIFICANT cooling issues lol.

 

Man though, the 13900K is an absolute MONSTER when you can finally cool it to the point of eliminating all thermal throttling...

 

Also update on my next gen PC build - looks like Im going Ryzen 7 7800X3D. I mean it just doesn't make any sense to go any other way. The reviews of the 7900X3D and 7950X3D have already shown that when you have a second CCD that has to reach over to the 3D V-Cache, theres a noticable performance hit, especially in the stuttering department.

 

So Intel requires an actual chiller to be cooled correctly and AMD has a super thick IHS that Im probably gonna shave down. Either way, looks like this generation Im going to be doing some modifications lol .

 

 

[iiNNeX]

The 13900K does not thermal throttle under any normal circumstances. Running CB23 is not considered a normal use case. And even so, it can run 95-100C while still maintaining 5.5 all (p) core. Not to mention pairing with actual high speed memory, which AMD will most likely take 1-2 more generations to reach, ect.. Not trying to sway your opinion, just make sure you consider all options carefully as its' a big outleigh especially if you don't upgrade often.

 

On another point, after reading your OP you appear to believe these engineers are "morons" for designing it this way. Well, have a watch of this and see how you feel:

 

 

[WallacEngineering]

On 3/20/2023 at 8:00 PM, iiNNeX said:

The 13900K does not thermal throttle under any normal circumstances. Running CB23 is not considered a normal use case. And even so, it can run 95-100C while still maintaining 5.5 all (p) core. Not to mention pairing with actual high speed memory, which AMD will most likely take 1-2 more generations to reach, ect.. Not trying to sway your opinion, just make sure you consider all options carefully as its' a big outleigh especially if you don't upgrade often.

 

On another point, after reading your OP you appear to believe these engineers are "morons" for designing it this way. Well, have a watch of this and see how you feel:

 

 

Even after watching, I still feel this way. However at least it makes a LITTLE more sense now. Of course I already understood that power density is getting higher in CPUs, but Im saying both Intel AND AMD should be combating this with better and thinner IHS designs, not just trapping the heat and being like "well whatever so what if it throttles, its within spec". Since PCs have existed we have become accustomed to either buying a new CPU cooler or with some companies such as Noctua, getting a new mounting adapter for a new generation of CPU.

 

But no, THIS time (referring to AMD in particular), they decided to be dumb. Rather than just having a new CPU mount to keep everything normal, they instead decided to retain AM4 Cooler compatibility by giving the new Ryzen 7000 series an extra-thick IHS to make it tall enough to be compatible with older AM4 coolers.

 

Now of course the intention seems simple enough and if it were possible WITHOUT trapping heat inside the new CPUs with an extra-thick IHS, it would have been a fantastic idea. However, the extra-thick IHS happened, so it was a dumb idea for several reasons...

 

First of all, AM4 was around for 4 generations of CPUs. It was time to get a new cooler anyways. Second, the cost of a cooler when considering the cost of an entire system is one of the smallest expenses unless you go full-blown custom water loop. Third, the cost savings overall is simply not worth it whatsoever in comparison to the performance lost by trapping the heat in the CPU.

 

Finally - As a result of this dumb design, to get maximum performance from these new Ryzen 7000 CPUs you now MUST modify the CPU voiding your warranty. Keep in mind I said MUST to get maximum performance of the silicon, which means removing the heat-trap by shaving down the IHS so that the CPU no longer hits TJ-Max so quickly, especially on air cooling.

 

It simply makes no sense, all this nonsense to save maybe $100 on a brand new system for the average consumer when they could have just done things the normal way they have always been done. Again, if there wasn't a cooling issue caused by a Thicker IHS - it wouldn't matter and in fact it would have been a great idea. So in conclusion this was a stupid idea that simply was not thought all the way through.