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Multi-Seat PC for Makerspace Lab

Before I even start... Yes, I realize I could buy low end/used PCs. Yes, I realize this project isn't necessary. Yes, I want to proceed anyway, so long as its at least slightly practical.

 

Ok, so I'm working on setting up a makerspace. Its a slow process and I'm trying to piece it together as we go so that it grows to fit our community. The first things we are wanting to add are 3D printers and workstations to be able to create models and run the slicer. Today we just need Fusion 360 and Cura(and maybe a couple related programs), but down the road we will likely add some graphics software(Photoshop, Illustrator, etc), developer software(Visual Studio, Arduino IDE, Sketch, etc). So our workstations won't necessarily be doing a lot of heavy lifting, but I'd like to offer a decent experience for the people that come in to work on projects.

 

Here's what I'm looking at:

  • 1x Host(PC/Server)
    • Good specs, not over the top
    • Primary OS can be Windows or Linux. I'm more familiar with windows but am willing to work with linux if its better for the project.
  • 10x Clients
    • Bare bones machines remoting into the PC/Server OR
    • Remote Peripherals connected back to the PC/Server

Based on my current understanding, I would prefer that the Host be running virtual machines that can be accessed via remote connection. My reasoning is that I could always add more VMs and allow members to remote into the host using their own device(laptop, phone, tablet). This way they can use whatever software is available without having to take a seat from someone that doesn't have their own device. Also, supposedly creating VMs that use dynamic resources is much easier than it used to be. If I understand correctly, I could create 100 VMs but the hardware resources are only split between the VMs that are currently being used.

 

Let me know what you think. I could only find one similar thread, but it was from 2015 and I'm pretty sure there have been some technological advancements since then. 😬

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12 minutes ago, Ramham13 said:

. Yes, I realize I could buy low end/used PCs

Id really suggest this, esp since you don't have much experience with these setups, and a lot of this software like adobe cc and fusion doesn't like running in these sorts of configurations. setting up pcs for multiple users will probably be more expensive at this size, esp with software licensing.

 

If you want to do this right with vms, you need something like vmware horizon, and that won't be cheap, so probalby 10k in licensing along to set it up for a basic setup, probably gonna need more. And you need supported hardware for things like gpu accerlation.

 

The lazy way is to skip vms and use multipoint software like aster, but then you get problems with software that doesn't like being run in multiple instances at once

 

This seems like a lot of work for no benfit, Id put your effort into setting up other things in the makerspace.

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1 hour ago, Ramham13 said:

Yes, I realize I could buy low end/used PCs. Yes, I realize this project isn't necessary. Yes, I want to proceed anyway, so long as its at least slightly practical.

Yes, low end PCs will be much better, but since you want to go ahead with it anyway, let's go down this rabbit hole, good way to pass time at night anyways.

 

Host PC, in your case I'd actually recommend running at least 2 Host PCs, as even with a 16C32T machine having 1C2T per vm will not be fun, especially if theres even the thought of running Adobe CC apps. 2C4T recommended minimum. Splitting GPUs, covered in an LTT Video linked here. 

 

Easy-GPU-P will save you alot of hassle. Plus, it runs on windows, much easier than doing it on Proxmox if you aren't already familiar with it. You'll be using Parsec as a way to remote in.


Specs for Host, get 2 of them. Recommend running 2C4T per VM, 11-12GB Ram each. Some VMs can have 3C6T, leave minimum 2C4T and 4GB ram for host. GPU can be split with 1 having 3VMs and 4GB VRAM each, other one having 2 VMs 6GB VRAM each, or leave some for the hypervisor/host. 

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 3.4 GHz 16-Core Processor  ($549.00 @ Amazon) 
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 chromax.black 82.52 CFM CPU Cooler  ($154.97 @ Amazon) 
Motherboard: ASRock X570 Taichi ATX AM4 Motherboard  ($259.99 @ Newegg) 
Memory: Patriot Viper Steel 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR4-3600 CL18 Memory  ($239.99 @ Amazon) 
Storage: Samsung 980 500 GB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive  ($61.99 @ Adorama) 
Storage: Samsung 980 1 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive  ($99.99 @ B&H) 
Storage: Samsung 980 1 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive  ($99.99 @ B&H) 
Video Card: Zotac GeForce RTX 3060 12 GB GAMING Twin Edge OC Video Card  ($529.99 @ B&H) 
Video Card: Zotac GeForce RTX 3060 12 GB GAMING Twin Edge OC Video Card  ($529.99 @ B&H) 
Case: Corsair 4000D Airflow ATX Mid Tower Case  ($94.99 @ Best Buy) 
Power Supply: Corsair HX Platinum 1000 W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply  ($174.99 @ Newegg) 
Total: $2795.88
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2022-04-19 13:28 EDT-0400

 

Client, Recommend getting a cheap system, so let's see how cheap i can get a config to be.

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Athlon 3000G (14nm) 3.5 GHz Dual-Core Processor  ($84.99 @ Newegg) 
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-A320M-S2H Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard  ($59.99 @ Amazon) 
Memory: Kingston ValueRAM 4 GB (1 x 4 GB) DDR4-3200 CL22 Memory  ($21.99 @ Amazon) 
Storage: ADATA Ultimate SU650 120 GB 2.5" Solid State Drive  ($19.99 @ Newegg Sellers) 
Case: Rosewill FBM-X2 MicroATX Mini Tower Case  ($44.99 @ Newegg) 
Power Supply: EVGA BQ 500 W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-modular ATX Power Supply  ($54.99 @ EVGA) 
Total: $286.94
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2022-04-19 13:46 EDT-0400

 

Client less than 300 bucks a pop. Just run parsec on them to remote into the VMs.

 

Again, this is horribly impractical. But do what makes you happy.

 

I'd still just advise getting 10 cheap dell optiplex off your local used marketplace, and building yourself a simple NAS for localised storage.

Main Rig: CPU: AMD Ryzen™ 9 3950X Processor (Stock, -0.1V offset)  /// Motherboard: Asus Pro WS X570-Ace /// CPU Cooler: Deepcool GamerStorm Castle 360 RGB V2 /// GPU: Gigabyte AORUS GeForce® RTX 2080 SUPER™ 8G /// RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws V 128GB (4x32GB) 3200Mhz CL16 /// Chassis: Fractal Design Define R6 USB-C Blackout TG /// PSU: Corsair RM850i /// Storage: 500GB Samsung 970 EVO Plus NVMe (boot) + 1TB WD Black SN750 NVMe (Working Drive) + 2x 1TB Samsung 850 EVO 2.5" SATA SSD RAID0 (Game Library) + 2TB Seagate BarraCuda (Backup) /// OS: Windows 10 Pro

 

Peripherals (Main Rig): Mouse: Logitech MX Master 3 + Logitech G903 Lightspeed /// Keyboard: Keychron Q1 ANSI - JWK Lavender Linear Switches (TX Switch Film, Krytox 205g0), Durock V2 Stabilisers, Polycarbonate Plate, Tape Mod, GMK Blue Samurai + Keychron K4 V2 Hotswap RGB Aluminum Frame - Gateron Milky Black (Deskeys Switch Film, Krytox 205g0), Foam Mod, Tape Mod, GMK Rainy Day PBT Clones /// Tablet: Wacom Intuos M BT /// Monitor: 4x LG 27UL500-W (4K IPS Freesync) /// DAC: Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 /// Speakers: Logitech Z625 /// Mic: Focusrite CM25 MkII /// Headphones: Audio-Technica ATH-M50x, ATH-LS70iS IEMs /// Racing Wheel: Logitech G920 Driving Force with Shifter /// Eye Tracker: Steelseries Sentry  /// External Drives: 500GB Samsung T5 SSD (Working Drive)

 

Home Server - NASty: CPU: AMD Ryzen™ 7 2700x Processor /// Motherboard: Asus PRIME X470-Pro  /// CPU Cooler: be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 /// GPU: Gigabyte GeForce® GT 1030 OC 2G /// RAM: G.SKILL TridentZ RGB 64GB (4x16GB) 3200Mhz CL16 /// Chassis: Fractal Design Define R5 Window /// PSU: Corsair RM750x /// Storage: LSI SAS 9211-8i (IT Mode) + 10x 4TB Seagate Exos Enterprise Drive /// OS: UNRaid

 

Tester Rig: CPU: AMD Athlon™ 200GE Processor /// Motherboard: Asus ROG Crosshair VI Hero WIFI  /// CPU Cooler: AMD Wraith Prism RGB /// GPU: Palit GeForce® GTX 1050 2GB StromX /// RAM: Klevv Bolt 8GB (1x8GB) 3000Mhz CL15 /// Chassis: The AMAZING $30 "Computer Case"! /// PSU: Seasonic Focus GX-750 /// Storage: 1TB Samsung 860 EVO 2.5" SATA SSD + 240GB Transcend SSD220S 2.5" SATA SSD /// OS: Windows 10 Pro

 

Laptop (Asus UX430UN): CPU: Intel® Core™ i7-8550U Processor  /// GPU: NVIDIA GeForce MX150 /// RAM: 16GB 2133Mhz /// Storage: 512GB SanDisk SD8SN8U512G1002 (boot) /// OS: Windows 10 Home

 

Other Tech: Console: Xbox One S 1TB, Apple TV 4K /// Printer: Canon imageCLASS MF635Cx /// Phone: Apple iPhone 12 Pro Max 256GB Graphite (Daily Driver)  /// Tablet: Apple iPad 9.7-inch Wi-Fi (2018) 32GB + Apple Pencil (1st Generation) /// Headphones: Apple Airpods Pro, Sony WF-1000XM3, Sony WH-1000XM3 /// Smartwatch: Apple Watch Series 6 GPS Space Grey

 

Cameras: Bodies: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II, Canon EOS 5D Mark IV,  Sony A6000 /// Lenses: Canon EF 24-70mm F/2.8L USM, Canon EF 16-35mm F/2.8L II USM, Canon EF 70-200mm F/2.8L IS II USM, Tamron SP 150-600mm F/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2 (Canon), Sony SEL-P1650 E 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 PZ OSS /// Lighting: 2x Godox SL60-W Continuous LED, 2x Canon Speedlite 580EXII /// Tripods: Leofoto LS-324C Carbon Fiber Tripod + Leofoto LH-40 Ballhead, Leofoto MC-80 Multipurpose Clamp, Triopo DG-3 Gimbal Head /// Yes, I am a Canon Fanboy, deal with it

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Thanks for the great feedback so far...

 

I'm not dead-set against the individual workstations, but it still seems that the VMs would be cheaper in the long-run. If even I built two of the servers @berberries listed and ran 10 VMs, the cost would be about $600/VM. For clients I was looking at using the cheapest hardware I could find, possibly even Raspberry Pi's.

 

I'm not sure that I could build an equivalent workstation for that price. Again, I don't need high end hardware for the software we're running, but I don't want our members to have a horrible experience on a bare bones used PC.

 

Obviously a VM with effectively 2C4T and 12GB of ram wouldn't be the best experience, but I don't expect all 10 VMs to be used at all times. My expectation is 3-4 active VMs on average and the full 10 would only be used when we have classes or events. Am I grossly misinformed that you van set up VMs to dynamically be allotted resources dynamically? i.e. If I have 10 VMs set up, but only 2 are being used, those two VMs would each have roughly 50% hardware utilization. If two more VMs started being used, each VM would get ~25%. If that kind of setup doesn't work than I probably am going down the path.

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2 hours ago, Ramham13 said:

'm not dead-set against the individual workstations, but it still seems that the VMs would be cheaper in the long-run. If even I built two of the servers @berberries listed and ran 10 VMs, the cost would be about $600/VM. For clients I was looking at using the cheapest hardware I could find, possibly even Raspberry Pi's.

 

This isn't counting the signifantly more complex seutp that you need to do with vms, the more issues that you have to deal with and downtime, and the worse experience that the users will have. And you can get some pretty decent used pcs for that price, that will likely be faster than the single fast system.

 

2 hours ago, Ramham13 said:

Am I grossly misinformed that you van set up VMs to dynamically be allotted resources dynamically?

You can't really do this with gpu power, you can with CPU power, but it only goes so far. Id give every vm here, like 8-12 vcpus, and then since most won't be using them at once, there will be cpu power to spare

 

2 hours ago, Ramham13 said:

I'm not sure that I could build an equivalent workstation for that price. Again, I don't need high end hardware for the software we're running, but I don't want our members to have a horrible experience on a bare bones used PC.

Something like a used optiplex 3060, with a i5 8500 and a gtx 1060 would fit in this budget, and should be a good amount faster than the single pc, more reliable, less setup and issues, and a much better user experience.

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  • 1 month later...

Just wanted to share a quick update. I ended up going the VM route and its been amazing. I'm only running a couple at the moment but it was surprisingly easy to set up and is a super smooth experience. No issues with running fusion on multiple instances at the same time.

 

I went to spec out new budget PCs and even bought a used pc to test, no bueno. The used pc was $300 and was a terrible experience(compared to the VMs). To build a budget PC it was going to be about $500. My workstation that I'm running the VMs on now was about $2500 but based on the experience so far, I could easily run 6-8vms with no perceivable drop in performance. That comes to $350-450 per user station.

 

The only challenge I haven't addressed yet is USB interfaces. I'm sure there are going to be issues I'll have to solve when I need to save files from the VM to a thumb drive on the client, but I'll cross that bridge when it comes up.

 

BOTTOM LINE:

I wouldn't recommend this to EVERYONE, but if you're technically inclined and don't mind spending a day or two to set things up(it took me 5-6hrs), it is a very doable project with great user experience at the end.

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On 4/19/2022 at 5:58 PM, Ramham13 said:

Before I even start... Yes, I realize I could buy low end/used PCs. Yes, I realize this project isn't necessary. Yes, I want to proceed anyway, so long as its at least slightly practical.

 

Ok, so I'm working on setting up a makerspace. Its a slow process and I'm trying to piece it together as we go so that it grows to fit our community. The first things we are wanting to add are 3D printers and workstations to be able to create models and run the slicer. Today we just need Fusion 360 and Cura(and maybe a couple related programs), but down the road we will likely add some graphics software(Photoshop, Illustrator, etc), developer software(Visual Studio, Arduino IDE, Sketch, etc). So our workstations won't necessarily be doing a lot of heavy lifting, but I'd like to offer a decent experience for the people that come in to work on projects.

 

Here's what I'm looking at:

  • 1x Host(PC/Server)
    • Good specs, not over the top
    • Primary OS can be Windows or Linux. I'm more familiar with windows but am willing to work with linux if its better for the project.
  • 10x Clients
    • Bare bones machines remoting into the PC/Server OR
    • Remote Peripherals connected back to the PC/Server

Based on my current understanding, I would prefer that the Host be running virtual machines that can be accessed via remote connection. My reasoning is that I could always add more VMs and allow members to remote into the host using their own device(laptop, phone, tablet). This way they can use whatever software is available without having to take a seat from someone that doesn't have their own device. Also, supposedly creating VMs that use dynamic resources is much easier than it used to be. If I understand correctly, I could create 100 VMs but the hardware resources are only split between the VMs that are currently being used.

 

Let me know what you think. I could only find one similar thread, but it was from 2015 and I'm pretty sure there have been some technological advancements since then. 😬

Hi, actually I think you need a render farm and not a multiseat system. The render farm depends on the graphics program and its licenses. For example blender is free.

 

 

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