Hello a dumb question from a kinda coffee drinker

[whm1974]

5 hours ago, IRMacGuyver said:

Stew and steak are made from completely different cuts and cooked WAY different.  The pressure is the ONLY thing that makes espresso special and a good french press can be used to pressurize the coffee to close to espresso levels.  It's not perfect but it's very close.  To take your analogy think about a 5 hour stew and stew left over night.  The 5 hour stew being the french press and getting you most of the way there but the over night stew stew being the perfect espresso. 

In this example regular coffee would be ground beef soup cooked in an hour.

Beef and Barley Soup.? Aren't you suppose to brown that first? I highly perfer stew anyway.

[tikker]

11 hours ago, IRMacGuyver said:

Stew and steak are made from completely different cuts and cooked WAY different.  The pressure is the ONLY thing that makes espresso special and a good french press can be used to pressurize the coffee to close to espresso levels.  It's not perfect but it's very close.  To take your analogy think about a 5 hour stew and stew left over night.  The 5 hour stew being the french press and getting you most of the way there but the over night stew stew being the perfect espresso. 

In this example regular coffee would be ground beef soup cooked in an hour.

 I was talking about the same cut of meat which is why I deliberately said "piece of beef" and not steak. The pressure difference is exactly the point, just like how you argue searing is different from stewing while the only difference between the two is a longer cooking time for the latter. The same goes for coffee. You won't get close to espresso with a french press, because they are brewed "WAY different". FPs are not even pressurised in the first place and brew through immersion. The grind for espresso is fine while the grind for a french press is very coarse; similar to cubing your piece of beef for a stew vs. putting it in your meat grinder for meat balls. Both of these make that you get a different extraction between the two methods that show different aspects of a coffee.

 

Part of the "method X comes close" comes from people wanting a cheaper alternative, but a big part I think also comes from the misunderstanding that espresso is thought of as just a smaller stronger version of their normal cup from a drip machine, which it is not. That's reinforced by the many full autos and cup machines where the difference between an "espresso" and a normal is usually less water for the former and diluted with more water for the latter in my experience. If you have a roaster or cafe nearby that serves both (not likely I guess since the french press is a hassle) I can highly recommend tasting an espresso and a "normal" coffee (not an americano) side by side. They will both be delicious, but will not be close.

[kasugatei]

15 hours ago, tikker said:

If you have a roaster or cafe nearby that serves both (not likely I guess since the french press is a hassle) I can highly recommend tasting an espresso and a "normal" coffee (not an americano) side by side. They will both be delicious, but will not be close.

I completely agree with that. I really like espresso and still when I am in mood for one I will go to the local cafe. I have plethora of coffee makers at home including Aeropress, French press, Wacaco and nothing comes close to the taste and texture of a good Italian style espresso even with makers such as Aeropress and Wacaco which are introducing pressure to the infusion. They are all making good coffee, but it is not espresso. 

[IRMacGuyver]

On 12/16/2021 at 5:21 AM, tikker said:

 I was talking about the same cut of meat which is why I deliberately said "piece of beef" and not steak. The pressure difference is exactly the point, just like how you argue searing is different from stewing while the only difference between the two is a longer cooking time for the latter. The same goes for coffee. You won't get close to espresso with a french press, because they are brewed "WAY different". FPs are not even pressurised in the first place and brew through immersion. The grind for espresso is fine while the grind for a french press is very coarse; similar to cubing your piece of beef for a stew vs. putting it in your meat grinder for meat balls. Both of these make that you get a different extraction between the two methods that show different aspects of a coffee.

 

Part of the "method X comes close" comes from people wanting a cheaper alternative, but a big part I think also comes from the misunderstanding that espresso is thought of as just a smaller stronger version of their normal cup from a drip machine, which it is not. That's reinforced by the many full autos and cup machines where the difference between an "espresso" and a normal is usually less water for the former and diluted with more water for the latter in my experience. If you have a roaster or cafe nearby that serves both (not likely I guess since the french press is a hassle) I can highly recommend tasting an espresso and a "normal" coffee (not an americano) side by side. They will both be delicious, but will not be close.

You obviously don't understand your own analogy or how a french press works.  A french press can actually pressurize the coffee.

[tikker]

4 hours ago, IRMacGuyver said:

You obviously don't understand your own analogy or how a french press works.  A french press can actually pressurize the coffee.

Just to make sure we are on the same page, this is a french press and the one I'm talking about:

 

This pressurises about as well as your colander for draining food. You can press down on the  the grounds if you put enough in and press down far enough, which is compression of the coffee grounds and not pressurising anything, but that is not what the screen is for.  That's simply to push the grounds out of the way so you can pour your coffee. Espresso is brewed at 9 bar, that is about 9 times atmospheric pressure, with liquid passing through the coffee grounds at that pressure in about half a minute. In a french press the coffee is simply immersed in water at 1 bar / normal atmospheric pressure and sits there for a couple of minutes extracting.

[Imbadatnames]

13 hours ago, tikker said:

Just to make sure we are on the same page, this is a french press and the one I'm talking about:

 

This pressurises about as well as your colander for draining food. You can press down on the  the grounds if you put enough in and press down far enough, which is compression of the coffee grounds and not pressurising anything, but that is not what the screen is for.  That's simply to push the grounds out of the way so you can pour your coffee. Espresso is brewed at 9 bar, that is about 9 times atmospheric pressure, with liquid passing through the coffee grounds at that pressure in about half a minute. In a french press the coffee is simply immersed in water at 1 bar / normal atmospheric pressure and sits there for a couple of minutes extracting.

Compression is pressurising them. Unless you think the water at the bottom of the ocean is the under the same pressure as that on the surface. 

[tikker]

9 hours ago, Imbadatnames said:

Compression is pressurising them. Unless you think the water at the bottom of the ocean is the under the same pressure as that on the surface. 

Pressure is force applied over an area. Compression is a change in volume. The pressure at the bottom of the ocean is higher because there is more water pushing down on you. It so happens that fluids are practically incompressible, meaning an increase in pressure will not notably increase their density or decrease their volume. Gases are quite compressible on the other hand. If you take a bottle of air to the bottom of the ocean you'll see it crinkle up and shrink, because the gas is compressible. A bottle of water will only show a tiny change.

 

While making espresso, water is forced through the grounds with force, at a pressure of 9 bar. Brewing with a french press doesn't force water through the grounds at any pressure. It just sits there at atmospheric pressure. If you press down on the coffee you're likely to work against the brewing by forcing water away from the coffee by more tightly packing the grounds. If you ground too fine you can have a hard time pushing it down, creating some pressure, but the brewing is already done. It's not pressurised brewing.

[Imbadatnames]

7 minutes ago, tikker said:

Pressure is force applied over an area. Compression is a change in volume. The pressure at the bottom of the ocean is higher because there is more water pushing down on you. It so happens that fluids are practically incompressible, meaning an increase in pressure will not notably increase their density or decrease their volume. Gases are quite compressible on the other hand. If you take a bottle of air to the bottom of the ocean you'll see it crinkle up and shrink, because the gas is compressible. A bottle of water will only show a tiny change.

 

While making espresso, water is forced through the grounds with force, at a pressure of 9 bar. Brewing with a french press doesn't force water through the grounds at any pressure. It just sits there at atmospheric pressure. If you press down on the coffee you're likely to work against the brewing by forcing water away from the coffee by more tightly packing the grounds. If you ground too fine you can have a hard time pushing it down, creating some pressure, but the brewing is already done. It's not pressurised brewing.

Compression is the resultant of pressure dude… water shows less effect as it is significantly more dense than a gas, the pressure causes it to compress further. 
 

Not cared about the coffee just saying compression would be increasing the pressure on the grounds. 

[tikker]

28 minutes ago, Imbadatnames said:

Compression is the resultant of pressure dude… water shows less effect as it is significantly more dense than a gas, the pressure causes it to compress further. 
 

Not cared about the coffee just saying compression would be increasing the pressure on the grounds. 

Yes, compression results from pressure and increases density. That does not make them the same thing. I can put pressure on my steel desk right now, but that won't compress it by any significant amount. Fluids Liquids being incompressible means you can significantly increase the pressure and they barely show an increase in density or decrease in volume.

 

I think the confusion has come from what we refer to when we say "the coffee". In the context of brewing, however, as it was here, a french press does not pressurise the coffee. That's like saying your cup of tea is pressurised because you pressed your spoon on the tea bag.

[whm1974]

Decent Tasting Coffee, Step by Step:

 

1. Start with known quality Coffee Brands. Doesn't have to be the best.

2. Cleaned Maker and Pot. Use White Vinegar, rinse completely.

3. Always use fresh cold or lukewarm water.

4. Keep opened bags and cans sealed and in fringe/freezer. Stays fresh longer.

5. Store Brands will be Hit or Miss... Use Breakfast Blends if possible.

6. Far from Complete...

[kasugatei]

Just one more thing regarding the French press vs espresso debate. French press is made with infusion technique, espresso is made with percolation technique. In the first one grounds and water are combined together and then plunger is used as filter where pressure on the grounds have virtually zero effect on the taste. On the other hand in espresso water is pressurized to 9 bars and it is flowing though the grounds. Filter coffee is significantly different than espresso yet both are percolation techniques. Even Turkish coffee and French press are significantly different even though both are infusion techniques. My point is that apples (French press) and oranges (espresso) are being compared here and even though oranges (espresso) and lemons (filter) are from the same plant family (percolation) they are different. Both are tasty, but they are not the same.

[s_k]

Cheap, good coffee; French Press/Cafétière.
Cheap, even better coffee; Aeropress.
There's really no reason to use capsules :). 

[IRMacGuyver]

On 12/23/2021 at 4:06 AM, tikker said:

Yes, compression results from pressure and increases density. That does not make them the same thing. I can put pressure on my steel desk right now, but that won't compress it by any significant amount. Fluids Liquids being incompressible means you can significantly increase the pressure and they barely show an increase in density or decrease in volume.

 

I think the confusion has come from what we refer to when we say "the coffee". In the context of brewing, however, as it was here, a french press does not pressurise the coffee. That's like saying your cup of tea is pressurised because you pressed your spoon on the tea bag.

Except it does if you do it with the techniques you can learn if you just search the internet a little bit.  Cause then you're pressurizing it after instead of before and it acts more like an espresso machine just not as high of pressure but still good enough to be close. 

https://cliffandpebble.com/blogs/our-blog/make-espresso-with-french-press

[tikker]

9 hours ago, IRMacGuyver said:

Except it does if you do it with the techniques you can learn if you just search the internet a little bit.  Cause then you're pressurizing it after instead of before and it acts more like an espresso machine just not as high of pressure but still good enough to be close. 

https://cliffandpebble.com/blogs/our-blog/make-espresso-with-french-press

It does not. What you are saying is the equivalent of saying that a hexagon is a circle. Sure it has a few more angles, but it's close enough. Espresso isn't just strong coffee or "some pressure". People should unlearn that misinformation. That high pressure is a key point. Espresso is brewed at 9 bars of pressure and has a 1:2 ish beans-to-coffee yield (in grams). That is the espresso drink.

 

A double shot espresso uses around 18 grams of coffee and gives 36 grams of liquid out. That recipe uses 2 tbsp (which will vary with grind size, so the amount is anyone's guess) of coffee per CUP of water. A cup of water is 240 grams, so no, that method will never be espresso. You are making a different drink.

 

A french press does not act like an espresso machine, it does not brew at espresso pressures and it uses a completely different coffee to water ratio and grind size. Grinding finer does not turn it into espresso, forcing it down at a fine grind doesn't either and by grinding fine you'll alter the extraction process and will need to change your technique. Steeping finely ground coffee for that long may end you up with a very bitter tasting cup, because you will be over-extracting.

 

Espresso is one way of preparing coffee. It's not the ultimate way, just one way. French press is another way, moka pot is yet another way and neither of them are espresso or "like espresso", both of them make a great cup of coffee. I just got a new shipment of fresh beans yesterday and I can tell you first hand brewing them with my espresso machine and my french press is miles apart, but both yield a delicious beverage.

 

I think James Hoffman expresses it nicely when talking about the bialetti, which you would probably classify as even closer to espresso yet also is not espresso and again a different drink. Just the bit from 5:30-6:10 is relevant here:

 

[Imbadatnames]

On 12/23/2021 at 10:06 AM, tikker said:

Yes, compression results from pressure and increases density. That does not make them the same thing. I can put pressure on my steel desk right now, but that won't compress it by any significant amount. Fluids Liquids being incompressible means you can significantly increase the pressure and they barely show an increase in density or decrease in volume.

 

I think the confusion has come from what we refer to when we say "the coffee". In the context of brewing, however, as it was here, a french press does not pressurise the coffee. That's like saying your cup of tea is pressurised because you pressed your spoon on the tea bag.

Actually if you increase the pressure in a liquid high enough it will turn into a solid. If you out enough pressure on liquid water it will turn into ice. 
 

My issue is with you not understanding physics dude idgaf about the coffee side. Espresso and French press aren’t the same methods it’s stupid to compare them.

[tikker]

6 minutes ago, Imbadatnames said:

Actually if you increase the pressure in a liquid high enough it will turn into a solid. If you out enough pressure on liquid water it will turn into ice.

Yeah, I know. What does that have to do with this topic? You don't brew coffee at the 10,000+ bar pressure required for that to happen to water.

6 minutes ago, Imbadatnames said:

My issue is with you not understanding physics dude idgaf about the coffee side. Espresso and French press aren’t the same methods it’s stupid to compare them.

You're barking up the wrong tree... I understand physics just fine and I'm the one saying espresso and french press aren't the same.

[Imbadatnames]

1 hour ago, tikker said:

Yeah, I know. What does that have to do with this topic? You don't brew coffee at the 10,000+ bar pressure required for that to happen to water.

You're barking up the wrong tree... I understand physics just fine and I'm the one saying espresso and french press aren't the same.

I y’know you are and I don’t care. My issue is saying things like “compression and pressure isn’t the same”. They are it’s just being used a different way here. 

[SiRcivic27]

Please don’t use single use pods. I understand the attraction but we all need to make smart choices to do better for this planet. 

[whm1974]

As far as Coffee goes, there is Great tasting and smooth, Decent, and barely a step or two above Instant... The last is made from rejected Coffee beans... Adding Chicory along with Roasted Barley is an improvement.

[tikker]

11 hours ago, Imbadatnames said:

I y’know you are and I don’t care. My issue is saying things like “compression and pressure isn’t the same”. They are it’s just being used a different way here. 

Well they aren't the same. You compress something by applying pressure. Compression changes the volume whereas increasing pressure does not necessarily. Attempting to compress a gas in a container changes its volume. Attempting to compress an incompressible fluid only increases pressure without changing volume.

[whm1974]

The most enjoyable coffee I had is sold in a Yellow bag with the name Genera or something. Walgreens sells it. McCafe isn't far behind in smoothness. Now the Breakfast Blend sold by Kroger/Ruler Foods is, well great for Store Brands. But comes in 24 Oz Cans while the Med-Dark Roaster is 29 Oz...

 

The Breakfast Blend I can actually brew the grounds three times without tasting watery. Versus twice for the later. 

[mr moose]

I gave up on capsules a few years back.  I have a basic machine with steam wand and I grind my own beans.  I use Lavazza or Vittoria beans (whichever is on sale).  Makes decent coffee for me.  When I upgrade I might go a fully automatic machine, if for no other reason than to reduce the time it takes to make my first morning coffee.

 

 

On 12/23/2021 at 8:40 PM, Imbadatnames said:

Compression is the resultant of pressure dude… water shows less effect as it is significantly more dense than a gas, the pressure causes it to compress further. 
 

Not cared about the coffee just saying compression would be increasing the pressure on the grounds. 

 

On 12/31/2021 at 10:33 AM, Imbadatnames said:

Actually if you increase the pressure in a liquid high enough it will turn into a solid. If you out enough pressure on liquid water it will turn into ice. 
 

My issue is with you not understanding physics dude idgaf about the coffee side. Espresso and French press aren’t the same methods it’s stupid to compare them.

 

Compression and pressure are not the same thing.   Compression is the act of making something smaller by force, pressure is a force exerted on something.  one can cause the other but one does not always cause the other.  Therefore they are not interchangeable conditions and are not the same thing.   

 

You can increase the pressure without causing compression and if you do not reduce the physical space that matter occupies then you are not compressing it. 

[Imbadatnames]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

I gave up on capsules a few years back.  I have a basic machine with steam wand and I grind my own beans.  I use Lavazza or Vittoria beans (whichever is on sale).  Makes decent coffee for me.  When I upgrade I might go a fully automatic machine, if for no other reason than to reduce the time it takes to make my first morning coffee.

 

 

 

 

Compression and pressure are not the same thing.   Compression is the act of making something smaller by force, pressure is a force exerted on something.  one can cause the other but one does not always cause the other.  Therefore they are not interchangeable conditions and are not the same thing.   

 

You can increase the pressure without causing compression and if you do not reduce the physical space that matter occupies then you are not compressing it. 

For these purposes they are the same as we are talking about water. 

[whm1974]

I never understood why Folks go through the trouble of grinding coffee beans themselves. Or even more pointless, actually doing both roasting and grinding.

 

What is the point? We can already buy highly high quality coffee anyway.

[mr moose]

10 hours ago, Imbadatnames said:

For these purposes they are the same as we are talking about water. 

no they are not, not for any purpose. they have a specific definition each for good reason.