Thoughts on the linux challenge

[linux_user]

 

I'm not a huge follower of LTT, but I have seen the recent clips where the LTT guys talk about their linux challenge.

 

Here's my background:
I first heard about linux in 2005 from some friends at school. In 2007, I finally burned Ubuntu Fiesty Fawn onto a CD-R and live booted it. I couldn't get Wi-Fi working, so I didn't install it. (I still remember that it needed the RT73 USB driver!)
In 2008, I read about the latest Ubuntu release. It seemed stable and had more hardware compatibility, so I installed Hardy Heron on my laptop.

It was great. I installed Compiz to give myself Wobbly Windows and other graphical silliness, I leanred to use OpenOffice, and even worked through some WINE tutorials.

 

I stuck with linux no matter what. I didn't care that Flash videos stuttered in full screen or that I couldn't run every piece of software I came across.

It worked well for me for years. I even used it as my only OS for my first couple year at the University.

In 2011, after 4 years of using Linux primarily through the GUI, I took 3 classes at the local community college. Linux System Administration 1 & 2, along with a Bash Scripting course.

It completely changed the way I used Linux. I was taught by some guys in their mid-50s. Guys who knew the history of Linux all the way back to Dennis Ritchie and Bell Labs.
I became so comfortable with the terminal. Everything just makes sense at the level of Bash. The courses were on remote administration, which is easiest through the terminal, along with how to do anything we could think of in the text-based environment.

 

Since then, I have expanded my skill set and constantly learned new things about the OS.

 

I feel like the LTT crew is missing the point of Linux.
Operating systems are tools just like anything else. You pick the right tool for the job. If you want to play games, use the OS that has the best compatibility. If you are two knuckles deep in Microsoft's ecosystem and need to use their products constantly, Linux is not for you.

When I became an adult with a real job, I started dual booting Windows. I use Linux as my primary OS, but there are some things that only work on Windows. If my boss wants you to use a certain program or doing something Windows specific, I need to have that option. I hate windows and find it painful to use, but it's there if I need it.

 

I don't even understand the point of WINE or CodeWeavers. If Linux isn't doing it for you, use Windows.
Every Linux user should have Windows available as a dual boot option. I say this as somebody who has a Tux plushie sitting on their desk.

 

I love Linux. I love that it runs on everything. I love that it isn't owned by an evil corporation who is looking for more money.

I daily drive an 8 year old laptop. It runs Ubuntu Mate with no trouble. If I try to boot into Windows 10, which I do around once a month, the computer slows to a crawl. CPU usage spikes and my disk IO gets saturated for some unfathomable reason.
On Linux, I can run 'top' via the terminal and kill the offending program with 'k PID'. On Windows, I can only helplessly watch the Task Manager as it repeatedly refuses to end whatever random Windows process is suffocating my computer.

I find Windows overall confusing and hard to use. Why do I have to search the internet whenever I want a new program? It's so stupid. On linux, I can type "sudo apt-get install firefox" and have firefox in just a few minutes. I can use "apropos" to see if there's a program that will do what I want. Individuals can make their own repos with software that auto-updates with the computer.

Windows programs all seem to require update functionality to be built into the program, rather than the OS checking for a new version and grabbing it automatically.

 

Networking also works so much better. I have Raspberry Pis hooked up to the routers at all my relatives' houses. If they need a file or I want to share something with them, I can almost effortlessly place it on the Pi, which they can then access locally through a web browser on their Windows computers.
When using Windows, I can't even connect to my WD NAS without installing WD's bloatware. On linux, it just works.

 

Pressing CTRL+ALT+T opens a terminal windows. In seconds, I can be working on a server halfway across the world via SSH. My University had Chrome books in one of the labs. During downtime, I would SSH into my home server and play text based games.
I feel lost when I'm using a computer without a Terminal.

 

I can set up a file server, torrent box, usenet server, etc, in under an hour for just the cost of hardware. If I wanted to do that with Windows, step 1 would be giving MS $100 per OS license. Step 2 would be upgrading the hardware to meet the requirements of Windows.

 

Automating tasks is also simple in Linux. I can write a script and add it to cron for anything. I'm not aware of a similar Windows tool.

 

Linux has a steep learning curve. That's because it's a complex, highly-functional tool.

I understand that I am not the average user. The average newcomer to Linux doesn't have formal training and over a decade of daily experience.
Still, I have no problem with Linux in its current state.
Linux offers privacy and functionality that are impossible in Windows. If you don't care about the privacy aspect or you just want to run the latest games, why would you use Linux?
I seriously don't understand why somebody would switch to Linux unless if offered them something they couldn't get with Windows.

Saying linux is bad and not user friendly because gaming is hard is like saying a hammer is a bad tool because it can't remove screws.
It's not that the hammer is bad. The job you want to do just isn't right for a hammer.

Linux is very good at doing some things, just like Windows is very good at other things. (And MacOS is good at absolutely nothing)
Pick your OS based on what you need. Don't try to make it something it's not.

 

Here's an idea for a reverse challenge: How about LMG tries to switch all their server away from Linux/FOSS and exclusively to Microsoft/Closed Source/Paid products?

 

Anyway, these are just my thoughts on a video series that hasn't even been released yet. Maybe they address all this stuff, but the WAN clips are all pretty negative so far. I get annoyed when people bash (no pun intended) linux for not being Windows.

[10leej]

2 hours ago, linux_user said:

Here's an idea for a reverse challenge: How about LMG tries to switch all their server away from Linux/FOSS and exclusively to Microsoft/Closed Source/Paid products?

They already run windows server (they only very recently switched their servers to linux, prior they ran windows on everythijg but Linus' home server which used unraid (another paid product)

[xAcid9]

8 hours ago, linux_user said:

Pick your OS based on what you need. Don't try to make it something it's not.

I thought one of the reason they're doing this was because of the upcoming Steam Deck? 

That's why they want to try gaming and daily drive it?

Are you saying Steam Deck is gonna fail because they use wrong OS for the hardware?

 

Also gaming in Linux is gaining more and more traction in recent years ever since Proton and Vulkan became a thing. 

8 hours ago, linux_user said:

On Linux, I can run 'top' via the terminal and kill the offending program with 'k PID'. On Windows, I can only helplessly watch the Task Manager as it repeatedly refuses to end whatever random Windows process is suffocating my computer.

Open an elevated Command Prompt > type taskkill /f /im <processname.exe> 
add /t if you want to kill the whole process tree. 

[BLAfH]

7 minutes ago, xAcid9 said:

I thought one of the reason they're doing this was because of the upcoming Steam Deck? 

That's why they want to try gaming and daily drive it?

Are you saying Steam Deck is gonna fail because they use wrong OS for the hardware?

Steam deck is - a console, more or less. And not a multi purpose every day does everything desktop PC.

 

Linux is very successful as an OS for .. well... appliances. NAS, mediaplayers, routers... millions of those run Linux.

It's strong where you can tailor it to a need, in a way Windows won't be able to.

It's one HW config. So no problems with drivers and peripherals, as those don't change. No refresh rate and resolution messing about.. that's one fixed display build in. No Filemanager troubles. No "Discord won't screenshare".

 

All those things Linus and Luke struggled with - won't be there. They tried much, much more than the Stream Deck will provide.

 

That's the strong point of Linux. It's so flexible, you can exactly fit it to its purpose. And it is it's weakness for the generic Desktop. Because there are 50 ways to peel an orange in Linux, from "how to do it on a 1000 node supercluster" to "how to manage it on a $25 hdmi-stick mediaplayer". If someone makes this decision for you when they build the device - that's perfect. It's possibly the best way to do it on that hardware for that purpose. If you're left on your own with all of those options.. you're in hell.

 

That's whats Linux on desktop fails on. You can do 100'000 things on your PC, and Linux offers you 5 million ways to do it. With a console like the Stream Deck you trade in freedom/flexibility for "it just works". For the one thing it's intended to. You don't install Anno 1800 from somewhere and with some other launcher. You get it in the Store, readymade for your device - or you wont get it at all. (Well, till someone opens the thing up.. but then your in hacking on the bash level, and that's not the intended use...).

 

A bit like Chromebooks. Linux Kernel, but mostly closed ecosystem. Works well for what it's intended to, but not much else. That's why schools love those - the kids can't do much other than homework on those.

[alcindo]

On 11/4/2021 at 2:47 AM, linux_user said:

I feel like the LTT crew is missing the point of Linux.

Hi,

I think you are missing the point of the challenge.

"Some" are advertising as Linux as the solution to "anything", Including gaming.

This challenge is to put this statement to the test..

At the same time, (part of ?) the Linux developer community persist with the opinion that "(no worries) you can solve any issue using the CLI".

This comment keeps coming up on the WAN show. Instead of commenting: "Yes, this needs to improve."

For simple tasks and just playing games the CLI should not be needed, ever.

For the same reason most of us advised our elders to buy and use an iPhone.

As long as the CLI is needed to make games work, Linux will never become mainstream.

I can only hope that a "steam" distro will be released that gamers can install on their own hardware and will allow to install and play any (steam) game.

 

I daily drive (including gaming on) Windows 10. I have several Raspberry Pi's with Rasbian. And use Kali often. 

I have started with RH9 and switched to Debian (based distros) when RHE/Fedora came out.

 

/Alcindo

 

 

[linux_user]

4 hours ago, alcindo said:

Hi,

I think you are missing the point of the challenge.

"Some" are advertising as Linux as the solution to "anything", Including gaming.

This challenge is to put this statement to the test..

At the same time, (part of ?) the Linux developer community persist with the opinion that "(no worries) you can solve any issue using the CLI".

This comment keeps coming up on the WAN show. Instead of commenting: "Yes, this needs to improve."

For simple tasks and just playing games the CLI should not be needed, ever.

For the same reason most of us advised our elders to buy and use an iPhone.

As long as the CLI is needed to make games work, Linux will never become mainstream.

I can only hope that a "steam" distro will be released that gamers can install on their own hardware and will allow to install and play any (steam) game.

 

I daily drive (including gaming on) Windows 10. I have several Raspberry Pi's with Rasbian. And use Kali often. 

I have started with RH9 and switched to Debian (based distros) when RHE/Fedora came out.

 

/Alcindo

 

 

 

1. Nobody has ever (ever!) said that Linux was the solution for gaming. Graphics card driver have always been iffy and nobody makes games exclusively for Linux.

(I will say Linux really is the solution for everything else.)

 

2. If you can do something easily with the Terminal, there's no point in wasting developer time in making it accessible via a menu/GUI. The terminal is so powerful and I would be distraught if Linux as a whole started to move away from it.

I simply do not understand why anybody moves to Linux, but avoids using the Terminal.

Just use Windows at that point.

 

As I mentioned above, I find Windows difficult to use. Navigating through directories is painful, even using Windows Explorer (or whatever they call nautilus) The settings menu never seems to have what I want and there's no way to SSH into remote servers without downloading additional software.

Would I be right to complain about this and demand that Windows modify itself to meet my skill set? No. That would be selfish and stupid.

 

3. Linux doesn't need to be any more mainstream than it already is. The internet, most cellphones, and the majority of supercomputers run on Linux.

Linux, in its current state, is very good at what it does. Maybe it's not noob friendly, but that's the noob's problem, not Linux's.

From a professional user's point of view, I do not care if Linux becomes more kiddie friendly or if it becomes easier to play video games.

 

Why did you move away from Red Hat?

Do you work in IA? Seems like a pro would be using something more legit than Kali, though I don't know much about the distro.

 

/me

[Mihle]

10 hours ago, linux_user said:

1. Nobody has ever (ever!) said that Linux was the solution for gaming. Graphics card driver have always been iffy and nobody makes games exclusively for Linux.

(I will say Linux really is the solution for everything else.)

People have said Linux works for all normal stuff by normal users. Gaming is normal stuff.

10 hours ago, linux_user said:

2. If you can do something easily with the Terminal, there's no point in wasting developer time in making it accessible via a menu/GUI. The terminal is so powerful and I would be distraught if Linux as a whole started to move away from it.

I simply do not understand why anybody moves to Linux, but avoids using the Terminal.

No, just no. Normal users dont want to use terminal, thats just an objective fact. If you always need to use terminal for something, you wont get normal users to move over. And that is really the point of the challenge. Do they get issues Normal people would not want? (from what they said on WAN show, yes). The hole po

10 hours ago, linux_user said:

Just use Windows at that point.

The hole point is to see if Linux can be good for Normal people. Its not some challange to see if it fits good for server admins.....

10 hours ago, linux_user said:

As I mentioned above, I find Windows difficult to use. Navigating through directories is painful, even using Windows Explorer (or whatever they call nautilus) The settings menu never seems to have what I want and there's no way to SSH into remote servers without downloading additional software.

Would I be right to complain about this and demand that Windows modify itself to meet my skill set? No. That would be selfish and stupid.

 

3. Linux doesn't need to be any more mainstream than it already is. The internet, most cellphones, and the majority of supercomputers run on Linux.

Linux, in its current state, is very good at what it does. Maybe it's not noob friendly, but that's the noob's problem, not Linux's.

From a professional user's point of view, I do not care if Linux becomes more kiddie friendly or if it becomes easier to play video games.

 

Why did you move away from Red Hat?

Do you work in IA? Seems like a pro would be using something more legit than Kali, though I don't know much about the distro.

 

/me

The hole point of the challange is that people are saying Linux CAN be mainstream, you have obviously missed the point of the challange. 

[linux_user]

I guess I disagree with the premise of the challenge.

People these days just aren't good enough with computers to make Linux their primary OS. Nobody understands how computers work and nobody wants to learn.

I sympathize with wanting something to 'just work', but that attitude comes at a cost of lack of customization and functionality.

 

Of course the LTT is going to find that Linux isn't right for the average user. The average user just wants to watch TikToks, send emails, and waste their precious lives on live streams. Luckily for them, there are already solutions to do these things.

 

Linux doesn't need to be good for normal users.

Windows is for normal users. (MacOS is for blithering idiots.)

 

 

[whatevenwhoop]

22 hours ago, linux_user said:

I guess I disagree with the premise of the challenge.

People these days just aren't good enough with computers to make Linux their primary OS. Nobody understands how computers work and nobody wants to learn.

I sympathize with wanting something to 'just work', but that attitude comes at a cost of lack of customization and functionality.

 

Of course the LTT is going to find that Linux isn't right for the average user. The average user just wants to watch TikToks, send emails, and waste their precious lives on live streams. Luckily for them, there are already solutions to do these things.

 

Linux doesn't need to be good for normal users.

Windows is for normal users. (MacOS is for blithering idiots.)

 

 

I had to make an account to respond to this because it was THAT stupid. Would a football player call average people stupid for not being able to kick a field goal? Would a mechanic call an average person a moron for not being able to rebuild the engine in their car? No, they wouldn't. People aren't stupid because they don't know how to use the terminal, they just have a different hobby than you. The fact that you can't seem to grasp that shows me that you're probably not as smart as you think you are.

 

Refining the more noob friendly distros to make it easier for more people to switch to Linux is a GOOD THING. It has long reaching benefits for everybody. More people with more variations of hardware means a larger support network and faster troubleshooting. It also means that software companies will be more incentivized to make native Linux versions of their products. (things like the Adobe suite come to mind) 

 

Nobody is trying to change life for Gentoo or Arch users. You're not special for being a computer hobbyist, you just look like a clown when you say dumb stuff like "people these days just aren't good enough with computers to use Linux". What about the video editor that just wants a customizable experience without having to spend hours figuring out how to do pretty basic things? Is that person not worthy of using Linux? Are they not smart enough just because they don't want to take on a new hobby? 

 

We're not even talking about the average grandma or grandpa here. The fact is that there are tens of thousands of Windows users that ARE somewhat computer savvy that are ready and willing to make the jump as soon as the level of polish they need is reached. The idea that you would push back against more people enjoying the same platform as you just because they haven't met the level of expertise that you decided was required is insane. People like you are hurting your own cause and you just can't see it. 

[linux_user]

9 hours ago, whatevenwhoop said:

I had to make an account to respond to this because it was THAT stupid. Would a football player call average people stupid for not being able to kick a field goal? Would a mechanic call an average person a moron for not being able to rebuild the engine in their car? No, they wouldn't. People aren't stupid because they don't know how to use the terminal, they just have a different hobby than you. The fact that you can't seem to grasp that shows me that you're probably not as smart as you think you are.

 

Refining the more noob friendly distros to make it easier for more people to switch to Linux is a GOOD THING. It has long reaching benefits for everybody. More people with more variations of hardware means a larger support network and faster troubleshooting. It also means that software companies will be more incentivized to make native Linux versions of their products. (things like the Adobe suite come to mind) 

 

Nobody is trying to change life for Gentoo or Arch users. You're not special for being a computer hobbyist, you just look like a clown when you say dumb stuff like "people these days just aren't good enough with computers to use Linux". What about the video editor that just wants a customizable experience without having to spend hours figuring out how to do pretty basic things? Is that person not worthy of using Linux? Are they not smart enough just because they don't want to take on a new hobby? 

 

We're not even talking about the average grandma or grandpa here. The fact is that there are tens of thousands of Windows users that ARE somewhat computer savvy that are ready and willing to make the jump as soon as the level of polish they need is reached. The idea that you would push back against more people enjoying the same platform as you just because they haven't met the level of expertise that you decided was required is insane. People like you are hurting your own cause and you just can't see it. 

I don't believe I called anybody stupid. Let's get that out of the way.

(Except for people say 'USB' when they mean flash drive. Those people are walking vegetables.)

 

To push back against your mechanic metaphor, it's like if I drove a 1967 MG Midget. It takes a ton of time and work every weekend to keep it running. Most people don't have the skill or desire to keep a mid-60s british sports car running.

Do you find that to be a controversial statement?

There are other cars out there for people to drive and I don't resent them for choosing an easier car to daily drive. If a 2017 Honda Accord suits their needs, that's what they should drive.

They shouldn't get offended if I tell somebody that I don't think they have the mechanic skills required to own and drive an MG like I do.

(I don't actually drive an MG.)

 

I stand by the statement that the average computer user today is less computer literate than the average computer user of 15 years ago. Computers have gotten very easy to use. Many people use tablets and smartphones as their primary computing devices.

 

If you take the average computer user off the street and ask them to use Linux as their primary OS, could they? Probably not.

If you asked that same person if they wanted to put the time in to learn, would they say yes? Probably not.

And that's okay! They don't need to learn Linux to function in the world today.

 

From my own experience, the users I interact with today are worse with computer than 10 years ago. People are used to things 'just working'. This leads to users being less able to troubleshoot and solve problems than in the past. If you take somebody who has never even done a google search for a driver on Windows, then ask them to use Linux, they will hate that they have to open the terminal and follow along with some Stack Exchange thread to get their printer/sound card/etc working.

 

Look at the attitude in the LTT clips about linux, along with the sentiment here on this forum. People resent being asked to use the Terminal. They don't see it as an opportunity to grow their skills. Instead, they see it as a failing of the OS that any user intervention is required.

 

There seems to be this weird attitude that I should want people to switch over to Linux. Why? I don't care if people use Linux or not. Linux is a tool that works very well for me. If it doesn't work well for you or you don't want to put the time in to learn, that's fine. I do not care.

 

" The fact is that there are tens of thousands of Windows users that ARE somewhat computer savvy that are ready and willing to make the jump as soon as the level of polish they need is reached. The idea that you would push back against more people enjoying the same platform as you just because they haven't met the level of expertise that you decided was required is insane. People like you are hurting your own cause and you just can't see it. "

 

What cause? My cause is that people should use the best tool/OS for the job. If that's Linux, switch it Linux. If it's not Linux, stick with Windows or MacOS.

 

 

[LurkAndLoiter]

1 hour ago, linux_user said:

Except for people say 'USB' when they mean flash drive. Those people are walking vegetables.

Lul I just did this. I'm a vegetable and I guess the Arch Linux Devs are vegetables as well by these standards.

 

On 11/7/2021 at 10:52 AM, linux_user said:

People these days just aren't good enough with computers to make Linux their primary OS.

Most people that do not game could easily adapt to something like Ubuntu.

 

12 hours ago, whatevenwhoop said:

We're not even talking about the average grandma

My grandma runs Ubuntu linux on an archaic lenovo laptop. It's locked down and configured for her use granted she isn't a gamer and just needs email and internet access.

 

My thoughts on the Linux Gamer Challenge:

 

Linux Isn't ready for you yet Gamers, but tinkerers come on in:

If you're a gamer and you're afraid of the terminal then quite simply no version of linux is ready for you yet. Pop!OS/Ubuntu though they do have a lot of GUIs implemented it is very far from a wholly complete UI experience. There will likely be a time within the first few days where the only solution will require interacting with a terminal.

 

Methodology of testing...I mostly agree with their approach except for LTTs insistence on vendor lock in. Part of the Linux experience is the customization of your experience. Why do you have to run gnome desktop on Pop!OS you can install and play around with dozens of Desktop Environments. Maybe one will have a network manager you like more than the stock PopOS manager. If you don't like the file manager that came with your desktop then try out some different file managers there are dozens of them readily available for install.

 

I guess because of this I dislike the notion that "I had issues doing this in my file manager and that experience is a negative towards linux as a whole" is just not an approach i agree with. Some of us know nautilus file manager sucks that's why there are dozens of other file managers. Explore your options don't just trust that Ubuntu or PopOS gave you the file manager that you'd like. Most people install VLC for videos on linux but Ubuntu and PopOs ship with totem as their video player. why? who knows? Not Me...

 

[linux_user]

1 hour ago, LurkAndLoiter said:

Lul I just did this. I'm a vegetable and I guess the Arch Linux Devs are vegetables as well by these standards.

 

 

No worries. I know I always lost this linguistic war.

 

But:

Calling a flash drive ("flash drive", "USB stick", "USB key", etc) a USB is like calling a car a road.

 

A car uses a road to travel. A car is not the road itself.

A flash drive, etc, uses USB to communicate with the computer. It is not a Universal Serial Bus itself.

[LurkAndLoiter]

20 minutes ago, linux_user said:

But:

The fact that you just doubled down and only responded to the part of my post calling you out for splitting hairs. Insulting anyone who makes a colloquial reference used commonly in the whole linux community even in the hardcore Arch realm as vegetables...really? This isn't a linguistic war as you called it. This is just a don't be that guy moment. Are you here to talk and interact with others with similar interests or are you just here to argue and insult. Honestly just take a few moments to consider it.

[linux_user]

36 minutes ago, LurkAndLoiter said:

The fact that you just doubled down and only responded to the part of my post calling you out for splitting hairs. Insulting anyone who makes a colloquial reference used commonly in the whole linux community even in the hardcore Arch realm as vegetables...really? This isn't a linguistic war as you called it. This is just a don't be that guy moment. Are you here to talk and interact with others with similar interests or are you just here to argue and insult. Honestly just take a few moments to consider it.

 

I don't take my linguistic cues from the Arch devs.

Sort of like how I don't take cues about consent from Richard Stallman.

 

Calling it a USB is wrong. It's not splitting hairs. It's stupid.

I made the joke about vegetables because I thought that usage bothered everybody. It was a throwaway comment that I thought would lighten my post.

It's just so plainly wrong. How can you defend your usage?

 

Do you call a CD player a '3.5mm headphone jack'?

Do you call your Blu-Ray player an HDMI?

Do you call yourself an elevator, since you use an elevator to get to another floor in a building? Maybe you prefer to go by "stairs"?

Then why do you call a USB drive a USB?

 

Also, nothing else in your post had anything I felt needed a response, which is why I didn't address it.

[LurkAndLoiter]

13 minutes ago, linux_user said:

Calling it a USB is wrong. It's not splitting hairs. It's stupid.

You are splitting hairs. What do you think about copypasta? Are these people actully pasta-ing their copy? If a word is commonly used to describe x then it now means x regardless of your opinion of that being stupid..If you want something to get mad about here is Merriam-Webster's new words list for October. Guess what's on it copypasta.

[Michael Rowan]

Great post. I feel like this is a what can't we get along post. Windows. Always blame windows update.

[Savagebean]

On 11/4/2021 at 5:56 AM, xAcid9 said:

 

This is really being a pain on my phone for some reason!

 

Sorry for the quote, won't let me delete.

 

There's an underlying issue in regards to computers in general. The original intention was never to make it as niche as it is now. Everyone was supposed to learn computers and not so much technical hocus pocus.

 

Gaming on PC is just a wierd unique added benefit.

 

Something I have been thinking about since right before the windows 11 announcement is why is Microsoft still making windows and when is it no longer profitable for them to do it?

 

Than after reading this I started wondering why I haven't ordered a second M.2 and started dual booting my desktop yet?

 

But, I think the honest answer is there's a lot of lazy people out there. And MAC OS and windows let them be lazy. They really don't have to figure that much out, and if there is an issue, they can call tech support, or go to Best buy or the apple store.

 

Something I've also been thinking about: if flatpak is picked up by every distro as a central repository for Linux, if windows is going to go bye bye, that's how games get picked up on Linux. Without that, and distro communities working their distro to work on a main stream repository, there is little to no incentive for game publishers to do anything Linux. I think the lack of a central repository is also why there is not one drive app or office 365 on Linux .

 

I think Microsoft is planning something though. The fact they added a Linux subsystem to windows, plus requesting additions to the Linux kernel is interesting. I'm not too sure where they are going with this. 

 

And only time will tell.

[Alexeygridnev1993]

23 hours ago, Savagebean said:

I think Microsoft is planning something though. The fact they added a Linux subsystem to windows, plus requesting additions to the Linux kernel is interesting. I'm not too sure where they are going with this. 

No, Microsoft will never move Windows to a Linux kernel. Windows kernel, as crappy as it might be, is their crown jewel, as it ensures compatibility with at least two decades of Windows software which a lot of people still have to use (especially in enterprise segment). If you drop this compatibility, no one will care about Windows anymore.

 

WSL is just a tool to conveniently run Linux software on Windows natively without the need to do it via a VM, that's about it. This can actually prevent some people from switching to proper Linux.

[wasab]

12 hours ago, Alexeygridnev1993 said:

 two decades

two decades is a hyperbole. i doubt xp era softwares can run anywhere decently on modern hardwares and opearting system, windows 95 you can forget about it. Windows vista era was a completely mess too. many xp applications and drivers crashed left and right, and microsoft had to rolled out dozens of "service packs" which were essentially compatibility layers to help address the issues. 

 

Quote

WSL is just a tool to conveniently run Linux software on Windows natively without the need to do it via a VM, that's about it. This can actually prevent some people from switching to proper Linux.

that is more than it. microsoft had to do it becuase many goverments and some big companies required POSIX compliant operating system and for microsoft to keep their bussiness, they had to include some POSIX implementaions.  Microsoft POSIX Subsystem is the very first, linux subsystem is its subsequent replacement. 

 

Quote

Hi,

I think you are missing the point of the challenge.

"Some" are advertising as Linux as the solution to "anything", Including gaming.

This challenge is to put this statement to the test..

At the same time, (part of ?) the Linux developer community persist with the opinion that "(no worries) you can solve any issue using the CLI".

This comment keeps coming up on the WAN show. Instead of commenting: "Yes, this needs to improve."

For simple tasks and just playing games the CLI should not be needed, ever.

For the same reason most of us advised our elders to buy and use an iPhone.

As long as the CLI is needed to make games work, Linux will never become mainstream.

I can only hope that a "steam" distro will be released that gamers can install on their own hardware and will allow to install and play any (steam) game.

 

I daily drive (including gaming on) Windows 10. I have several Raspberry Pi's with Rasbian. And use Kali often. 

I have started with RH9 and switched to Debian (based distros) when RHE/Fedora came out.

 

/Alcindo

well it indeed can game, just not as well as windows due to lack of games and bad developer supports. many games no longer runs after a year or two and titles is still lacking. No developers will tell you to use terminal however, especially if they are creating commercial and gui applications for the linux desktop. If i make a pretty looking file manager for example, i would roll my eyes if you ignore it to cd, ls, mkdir, ect on a terminal. Most command line zealots are just hardline linux users who developed a hard to replace habits. 

 

 

[Alexeygridnev1993]

5 hours ago, wasab said:

two decades is a hyperbole. i doubt xp era softwares can run anywhere decently on modern hardwares and opearting system, windows 95 you can forget about it.

Still way better than Linux and MacOS where the compatibility breaks every 5 years at most. Had so many problems switching to Ubuntu 20.04 when suddenly so many programs relying on older libraries just stopped working.

[wasab]

5 hours ago, Alexeygridnev1993 said:

Still way better than Linux and MacOS where the compatibility breaks every 5 years at most. Had so many problems switching to Ubuntu 20.04 when suddenly so many programs relying on older libraries just stopped working.

It probably has to do with the fact they are phasing out old 32bits library. It is distro specific issue. Others might still have all these libraries still intact. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/06/ubuntu-is-dropping-all-32-bit-support-going-forward/amp

 

You can still install these dependencies manually. They are still in their official repo last time I checked. Annoying but not like you are SOL. 

 

 

[Alexeygridnev1993]

1 hour ago, wasab said:

It probably has to do with the fact they are phasing out old 32bits library. It is distro specific issue. Others might still have all these libraries still intact. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/06/ubuntu-is-dropping-all-32-bit-support-going-forward/amp

 

You can still install these dependencies manually. They are still in their official repo last time I checked. Annoying but not like you are SOL. 

 

 

Another big thing is removing Python 2 (which I get, it is already EOL, but so many pieces of software are still relying on it).

You can still stick to 18.04 till it is EOL, but it will be obsolete in just two years.

[wasab]

1 hour ago, Alexeygridnev1993 said:

Another big thing is removing Python 2 (which I get, it is already EOL, but so many pieces of software are still relying on it).

You can still stick to 18.04 till it is EOL, but it will be obsolete in just two years.

Good point. These are another major annoyances even though they are something that can be easily avoided. I ran into plenty of incompatible and outdated packages constantly in my line of work. Xyz node module working on nodejs 12 no longer works on nodejs 16 or this zyx composer package require php7.4 and won't work on php5.x. Java also has this issue but to some lesser degree. Python is another major headaches. Some people would sometimes just ship the entire python interpretor as part of their software package to avoid this problem entirely. 

 

These issues are platform agnostic however. If your script has issue with python3 on Linux, pretty sure it will have the exact same issue with python3 on windows. 

[Savagebean]

On 1/15/2022 at 1:06 PM, Alexeygridnev1993 said:

No, Microsoft will never move Windows to a Linux kernel. Windows kernel, as crappy as it might be, is their crown jewel, as it ensures compatibility with at least two decades of Windows software which a lot of people still have to use (especially in enterprise segment). If you drop this compatibility, no one will care about Windows anymore.

This is a very valid point, but how far back should a company enable backwards compatibility?

 

Also, if you were Microsoft and wanted to use A DirectX implementation on Linux for a Microsoft store, would WSL be a great test bed for that?

 

They haven't said so, but Linux is currently the only side they are lacking in the M365 ecosystem. I honestly haven't checked chrome OS, they even got it on the IOS/MACOS side for apple. There also comes a point where if you don't have to, why keep pushing DIrect X when Vulkan keeps developing and getting better without you paying developers.