[Advance Planning] Solving a fitting and plumbing puzzle

[Aereto_Compuru]

I have been mulling this over during my work hours, but may as well get some input from others.

 

If it were not for the supply situations, I would consider buying a RX 6900 XT and possibly Ryzen 6000 series in the future. Without regard to feasibility or availability, I would consider a liquid cooling solution, but I am not satisfied with the resulting heat distribution if I settle for case radiator and fans. Planning for long term, copper are to be used as hardline tubing. Distilled water instead of most pre-mixed coolants is used as the entire system is mostly opaque and avoid precipitates causing blockage. The CPU and GPU are connected in a single liquid cooling system, with the motherboard if it has its own water block. With 24/7 operations in both workstation and gaming alternating roles, PC radiators may as be all over the case or have its own array with several high pressure case fans that may as well be a waste of electricity dumping out heat. I decided for a more conserving approach with using the minimum amount of fans with thermal management in mind.

 

This is where the puzzle comes in. I considered looking into automotive parts and found that there are radiators and coolers with fittings I could use to connect to the line. I looked into stacked plate oil coolers and the tube and fin coolers typically used for transmissions, considering that stacked plate offers better dissipation with air pressure into the fins while tube and fin can cool passively at windless days. However, they use AN thread measurements while PC uses G. G 1/4" is apparently a common fitting in use. Typically a large fan appropriate to the radiator size comes with it, but that is a separate matter to solve.

 

One of the coolers I considered uses AN-6 fittings, equivalent to 3/8"-18 NPT standard. With copper tubings, I am going to need advice in connecting an AN-6 radiator to the rest of the system that uses G 1/4" on the assumption I use utility grade copper tubing with 1/4" OD.

 

The reservoir and pump would still be the same considering the liquid volume, but it is the placement that concerns me. If I face the pump towards the radiator, heated water is in the reservoir, which tends to evaporate more readily, but I can push water turbulence into the radiator that has internal agitators, and have the drainage and splitter connected to the pump. Facing the pump towards the PC would see pressure directed to the CPU water block first, leaving the radiator to work with flow rate being pulled towards the pump, but considering that the pump is typically placed at the upper exit of the radiator, the drain valve and splitter would be separate and stay on the lowest part of the line.

 

Again, all of this hinges on if I have the CPU and GPU on hand before I move on to the implementation. I would take soft tubing if I am testing the components first if they are working before doing the rest of the work provided they have the included fittings. Distilled water will still be used in the testing phase to flush and cycle any impurities. Drafts during work are attached, and more may be added.

 

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[For Science!]

From the drawings it sounds like you are considering using a silver kill coil and anti-corrosives. At that point, you might as well be using a clear-pre-mix. everything else in this thread is a bit poorly explained, are you wanting to do a "whole room cooling" setup where the cooling parts are distributed across the house? or is it just an external radiator like the MO-RA3. 

[Aereto_Compuru]

On 3/31/2021 at 2:22 PM, For Science! said:

 everything else in this thread is a bit poorly explained, are you wanting to do a "whole room cooling" setup where the cooling parts are distributed across the house? or is it just an external radiator like the MO-RA3. 

It will be only an external radiator. The heat from the CPU and GPU will be directed to the radiator outside the house for passive fluid temperature regulation. A whole house distribution is not feasible when winter months can produce a drastic difference in temperature. The external radiator would freeze the tubing, and antifreeze may affect fluid properties, especially the thermal capacity from water.

 

A pre-mix would sound reasonable, though distilled water is still to be used for the leak test and flushing. On the other hand, I would have to use a significant amount of premixed fluid since I am directing tubing out of the case and into outside, where the external radiator will dump the heat.

 

Anti-corrosives do not seem to be an issue so long as I stick with copper, brass, and nickel plated parts, and I would consider some biocide since the system is mostly opaque, save for a clear GPU and CPU, waterblock, and reservoir. Fungi may be a greater consideration with the mostly dark environment.

 

Other considerations were adding a radiator to the case, but considering that I am planning to build a PC that's going to run 24/7 as a workstation/gaming, the CPU will consistently be a main heat source, while the GPU produces the most heat when I play games on it. The case will be in a room separate from where I put my seat and monitors, and have not estimated the length of DP cables and USB extentions to run and reach the monitors. There will be an external radiator to use as the system's passive cooling, taking one of the window spots, and automotive transmission finned-tube radiators are compact enough to make construction strictly from the inside. I also have to make sure the cooler has copper piping with aluminum fins, though weather exposure means I need to draft on how to install the cooler and the window panel mount. The intended location is in the third floor closet that no one uses and planned to be renovated, considering to place an ethernet mounting on the floor once old flooring is replaced.

 

The external radiator is intended to take account of the seasonal climate. The additional volume would help with thermal capacity, but I would have to use the best PC watercooling pumps available to keep its flow rate appropriate to the situation. It would have to increase its pump speed if the liquid is getting too hot or in danger of freezing.

 

I had plans to draft more, but workload has increased recently.

 

 

[AnonymousGuy]

Passive radiators don't work...you're going to need fans out there on the radiator.

 

But yeah I used stacked plate heat exchangers everywhere in my house.  Make sure they're copper+stainless and not aluminum.  Some automotive shit assumes that the fluid is oil or whatever where aluminum wouldn't matter vs. corrosion.

 

I use NPT -> G1/4 adapters that Koolance sells.  I don't think you'll find AN to G1/4.  For NPT, use pipe sealant for water and teflon tape if you use glycol or premix.  I've had issues with the threads leaking through pipe sealant with premix.

 

With 110 feet of tubing I run a PMP-600 @ 24V and it drives PLENTY of flow.  I don't connect directly to my systems though I put a heat exchanger at each one and then use a D5 pump for the loops.  It's dangerous putting 1 big pump driving everything because a) redundancy b) maintenance (you can't take 1 system offline without taking all of them offline) c) the high pressures are no good for a lot of PC watercooling components.

 

Oh and you can use Garden Hose (5/8 ID) for the long runs and save the good stuff for the PC's.  I recommend this stuff: https://www.zoro.com/continental-garden-hose-58-id-x-100-ft-black-safety-factor-31-20355318/i/G9083390/  The cheapo walmart garden hoses have really thin PVC walls that don't seal very well against barbs. Commercial garden hose is thicker EPDM rubber.

[Aereto_Compuru]

On 4/7/2021 at 6:37 PM, AnonymousGuy said:

Passive radiators don't work...you're going to need fans out there on the radiator.

 

But yeah I used stacked plate heat exchangers everywhere in my house.  Make sure they're copper+stainless and not aluminum.  Some automotive shit assumes that the fluid is oil or whatever where aluminum wouldn't matter vs. corrosion.

 

I use NPT -> G1/4 adapters that Koolance sells.  I don't think you'll find AN to G1/4.  For NPT, use pipe sealant for water and teflon tape if you use glycol or premix.  I've had issues with the threads leaking through pipe sealant with premix.

 

With 110 feet of tubing I run a PMP-600 @ 24V and it drives PLENTY of flow.  I don't connect directly to my systems though I put a heat exchanger at each one and then use a D5 pump for the loops.  It's dangerous putting 1 big pump driving everything because a) redundancy b) maintenance (you can't take 1 system offline without taking all of them offline) c) the high pressures are no good for a lot of PC watercooling components.

 

Oh and you can use Garden Hose (5/8 ID) for the long runs and save the good stuff for the PC's.  I recommend this stuff: https://www.zoro.com/continental-garden-hose-58-id-x-100-ft-black-safety-factor-31-20355318/i/G9083390/  The cheapo walmart garden hoses have really thin PVC walls that don't seal very well against barbs. Commercial garden hose is thicker EPDM rubber.

That's really valuable information to take account.

 

I know my limits, and 110 feet of tubing is well beyond what I am planning. The whole system is only restricted to one room: The tubing goes beyond the PC case and through a window for climate-based passive cooling.

 

In other words, the tube-fin radiators I found in Amazon would be insufficient to passively dissipate heat from the passing volume? A weatherproof fan would become mandatory according to your feedback. Stacked plate air coolers would be worse at the passive cooling job because of them operating at high pressure airflow. With given circumstances, I am not confident in my skills to cut into the water line that goes to the water heating unit and run the line to the attic all the way there.

 

The D5 pump from EK would have to handle the whole line. If I want it redundant, I would end up using splitter fittings, valves, and 2 D5s running simultaneously. But that also means few other design considerations:

 

• Drop the resevoir/pump combo and just get the D5 pumps, with the resevoir directly above the pumps for easier system filling.
• A splitter to fill both pumps or use the resevoir and have 2 outlet fittings.
• Flow rate may not be as easily measured with two pumps providing parallel pressure gradients.
• A PWM splitter is necessary if the motherboard has a pump PWM.

I didn't go with plastic tubing or rubber because of the plasticizers leaching into the system and shortening both the tubing and fluid service life and increasing cleaning requirements of the waterblocks and radiators. I am made aware of it from years of gathering information and post-service assments from multiple watercooling communities. Replacing any tubing is a critical project failure; a preventable mistake.

 

I realized that the radiator won't even be able to passively cool in summer, so I have to work a hybrid approach, and that is where just buying a high airflow ATX case is more acceptable, but the radiator placements in case design have long been a reason why I haven't started watercooling earlier. If I stick with a custom case, those PC cooling radiators are going to have their own separate area, away from the case. High pressure fans turn on if the water volume temperature is above a threshold, and the radiators would just normalize with the room temperature if the water is cold. The fans stay off automatically in winter, since the volume temperature is below threshold. The pump, however, is dependent on two thresholds, which reaches maximum flow rate if the temperature is in either extreme, and enter reduced flow when all components are idle and the temperature is within acceptable range.

 

Because at the end of the day, if the PC ends up dumping waste heat into a room, and when the room warms up and opening the windows also keeps the room summer hot, the fins can't dissipate heat efficiently unless MORE electricity is spent on fans and A/C. This PC build is not worth the AC or HVAC and the running cost baggage that comes with. We are not here to keep throwing money at engineering problems on a monthly basis. This system is supposed to reduce operating costs and the PC internal ambient temps closer to ambient room temps.

[AnonymousGuy]

If your goal is effectively to do a remote radiator vs. whole room watercooling, you can cut a lot of corners and basically do as you describe: single/dual D5 pump and no stacked plate heat exchangers acting as intermediary between the room loop and the desktop loop.  You don't *have to* use hard line and I can vouch for Mayhem Ultra Clear not leaching plasticizer (because it's polyurethane based it doesn't have plasticizer to leach).  The only time I've had it fog is when I put a dirty/fluxy radiator in-line with it so I nowadays clean my radiators out with dilute (10%) phosphoric acid that doesn't harm brass/copper/stainless.

 

You can also potentially just use a single PMP-600 if you buy a 24V power supply.  Koolance has the pressure/flow curves on their website of all their pumps.  A -600 is comparable I believe to 2x D5 pumps (-450).  

 

Noctua does make iPPC fans that are water resistant if you're worried about rain and I've used double sided tape to build arrays of them without issue and without having to make a shroud that has individually  cut out mounting holes.

 

I don't think passive radiators would really work at any reasonable heat load and delta.  Do I know for sure? Nope, but the numbers I've seen are usually like "300W at 10C delta" or some such where that's pretty poor cooling if you're aiming for high performance.  They always seemed more appropriate for low power / HTPC passive builds.

 

I assume you've thought of this but in the winter you're going to need a means of preventing the water from going outside when it's below the dew point.  I can tell you from experience it gets really annoying having to manually switch things around based on temperature / indoor humidity (like when it rains outside).  That's why nowadays I'm just using the cold water supply on a sink to cool own a stacked plate heat exchanger that's coupled with my whole-house loop.  My cold water temperature never goes below ~21C here.  I have a 20" x 20" radiator with 9x 140mm fans in the house as a backup but the fans are off and passively it doesn't do hardly anything.

[Aereto_Compuru]

On 4/9/2021 at 3:31 PM, AnonymousGuy said:

If your goal is effectively to do a remote radiator vs. whole room watercooling, you can cut a lot of corners and basically do as you describe: single/dual D5 pump and no stacked plate heat exchangers acting as intermediary between the room loop and the desktop loop.  You don't *have to* use hard line and I can vouch for Mayhem Ultra Clear not leaching plasticizer (because it's polyurethane based it doesn't have plasticizer to leach).  The only time I've had it fog is when I put a dirty/fluxy radiator in-line with it so I nowadays clean my radiators out with dilute (10%) phosphoric acid that doesn't harm brass/copper/stainless.

 

You can also potentially just use a single PMP-600 if you buy a 24V power supply.  Koolance has the pressure/flow curves on their website of all their pumps.  A -600 is comparable I believe to 2x D5 pumps (-450).  

 

Noctua does make iPPC fans that are water resistant if you're worried about rain and I've used double sided tape to build arrays of them without issue and without having to make a shroud that has individually  cut out mounting holes.

 

I don't think passive radiators would really work at any reasonable heat load and delta.  Do I know for sure? Nope, but the numbers I've seen are usually like "300W at 10C delta" or some such where that's pretty poor cooling if you're aiming for high performance.  They always seemed more appropriate for low power / HTPC passive builds.

 

I assume you've thought of this but in the winter you're going to need a means of preventing the water from going outside when it's below the dew point.  I can tell you from experience it gets really annoying having to manually switch things around based on temperature / indoor humidity (like when it rains outside).  That's why nowadays I'm just using the cold water supply on a sink to cool own a stacked plate heat exchanger that's coupled with my whole-house loop.  My cold water temperature never goes below ~21C here.  I have a 20" x 20" radiator with 9x 140mm fans in the house as a backup but the fans are off and passively it doesn't do hardly anything.

I would find soft tubing and pure distilled water to be of use when I am making test runs on a system and performing flushes, though I would start moving on to more permanent hardline considering the external radiator would be affixed to wooden plywood with insulation sandwiched and replaces a window spot. All components would have to be flushed at first use, then primed in pure distilled water to flush the whole system with the tubings.

 

I drafted additional planning between using 1 or 2 pumps, and had to take account as to where should the drain and fill locations be designated. The idea of redundancy was brought up, so I took that into account while planning and drafting. I can't move forward into implementation planning without a liquid-cooled GPU, and because the reference cards are considered no longer in production that just adding a waterblock is near impossible at this point, I would have to settle with Powercolor Liquid Devil 6900 XT. I could use some feedback on how many PC case radiators and high pressure I need to cool both a 6900 XT and 5900X in a single line. Instead of putting them in the same case as the PC, I would build a separate platform for active cooling and the pumps.  I checked the pump operating temperatures, and the D5's spec indicates safe tolerance up to 50 C, which meant that putting the pump at the top and acting as a primary pressure flow to the radiator is out of the question, as I would risk heating the pump above safe temperature during heavy loads.

 

For now, I have the time to refine my concept planning. Implementation planning is where I start putting the hard measurements into account when purchasing the necessary wiring and tubing. The current plans assume the windows to be renovated retain their window size, and there is no certainty I can place a networking cable mount and the networking cable running all the way to the basement in the walls on its own during the floorboard renovation. I am working on one section of the plan at a time so I don't overwhelm myself in the information crunch.

 

There times when the PC itself is idle or just focusing on its server related tasks like torrents to synchronize my data, or hosting dedicated game servers for multiple games. I put up the draft for the dedicated pump and active cooling platforms. I may as well use the empty vertical space while still able to minimize potential leak direction as much away from any electrical circuits as possible, but that's only done in implementation planning.

 

I would be more concerned with winter freezing the water and damaging the nearby tubing and the radiator itself, and humidity doesn't cause leaks, but allows condensation at higher dew points, which should not be a problem when automotive radiators either have exposed aluminum fins, or powder coated aluminum (at slight penalty to its thermal conductivity), and essentially built for water exposure when vehicles are in wet/humid climates, whether or not it is in use. That being said, water has a great thermal capacity and decent thermal conductivity as a liquid. It wouldn't take out as much heat as what copper heatpipes or even thermosiphons would, but it is good in averaging temperatures, and especially when winter hits below freezing point that the pump(s) have to start running at full speed to keep temps above freezing, and shut off the active cooling fans. With those considerations, I may need some guidance on temperature monitoring and automatic pump and active cooling fan speed adjustments based on rulesets. I may as well consider the placements of the thermometer probes. As for the monitoring, I feel that belongs in a different topic that require a different set of expertise.

 

The new sets of drafts are placed in the OP for convenience.