10700 downclocking on load question

[abalone]

Hey!

I'm running an 10700F (no K) and ASUS B460-F.

Base clock speed is 2.9GHz and max speed is 4.7GHz. I have High Performance mode enabled in Windows, and whilst idling they are clocked at 4.7GHz. When I run games, however, the cores downclock to 3.6-3.8GHz. We're talking temperatures at 60-64C and CPU usage between of 40-70%. Can anyone tell me why my CPU isn't running at 4.6 when under load? I know my CPU is "locked" somehow, but shouldn't it (considering energy savings is turned off) run at max clock speed in games as well? My PSU is a Corsair 650W.

[MrMikeoxsmall]

7 minutes ago, abalone said:

Hey!

I'm running an 10700F (no K) and ASUS B460-F.

Base clock speed is 2.9GHz and max speed is 4.7GHz. I have High Performance mode enabled in Windows, and whilst idling they are clocked at 4.7GHz. When I run games, however, the cores downclock to 3.6-3.8GHz. We're talking temperatures at 60-64C and CPU usage between of 40-70%. Can anyone tell me why my CPU isn't running at 4.6 when under load? I know my CPU is "locked" somehow, but shouldn't it (considering energy savings is turned off) run at max clock speed in games as well? My PSU is a Corsair 650W.

I have same processor, haven't really paid attention to the clock while running games but maybe it has to do with how the CPU handles games with its hyperthreaded threads and cores compared to sitting idle. I wouldn't worry about it or tweak anything.

[abalone]

3 minutes ago, MrMikeoxsmall said:

I have same processor, haven't really paid attention to the clock while running games but maybe it has to do with how the CPU handles games with its hyperthreaded threads and cores compared to sitting idle. I wouldn't worry about it or tweak anything.

You believe so? I get the feeling the CPU is power throttling or something, but maybe I would've noticed that... My performance is fine so far

[MrMikeoxsmall]

3 minutes ago, abalone said:

You believe so? I get the feeling the CPU is power throttling or something, but maybe I would've noticed that... My performance is fine so far

Have you tried MSI afterburner? I use it and CPU is at 50-60% usage and I get top performance in games. 

[GhostRoadieBL]

17 minutes ago, abalone said:

Hey!

I'm running an 10700F (no K) and ASUS B460-F.

Base clock speed is 2.9GHz and max speed is 4.7GHz. I have High Performance mode enabled in Windows, and whilst idling they are clocked at 4.7GHz. When I run games, however, the cores downclock to 3.6-3.8GHz. We're talking temperatures at 60-64C and CPU usage between of 40-70%. Can anyone tell me why my CPU isn't running at 4.6 when under load? I know my CPU is "locked" somehow, but shouldn't it (considering energy savings is turned off) run at max clock speed in games as well? My PSU is a Corsair 650W.

that's the boost table working, 4.7Ghz is the single core max boost frequency, as you use more cores it will clock lower based on the CPU temp, CPU Power available, number of cores active, time at boost, type of instruction (AVX) etc. basically a huge chart of values Intel has created for the processor to reference for the situation and lets the CPU speed up when the values aren't maxed out. 

 

most games now use more cores so the "# of cores active" will cause the clock speed to drop and spread the power available across all the cores instead of just one or two cores. 

When idle the CPU is typically using 1 or 2 cores at most for background processes so it clocks up to the max boost frequency for the cores being used

[abalone]

9 minutes ago, GhostRoadieBL said:

that's the boost table working, 4.7Ghz is the single core max boost frequency, as you use more cores it will clock lower based on the CPU temp, CPU Power available, number of cores active, time at boost, type of instruction (AVX) etc. basically a huge chart of values Intel has created for the processor to reference for the situation and lets the CPU speed up when the values aren't maxed out. 

 

most games now use more cores so the "# of cores active" will cause the clock speed to drop and spread the power available across all the cores instead of just one or two cores. 

When idle the CPU is typically using 1 or 2 cores at most for background processes so it clocks up to the max boost frequency for the cores being used

 

Interesting, thank you for the explanation!

I tried Prime95 stress testing which also locked the frequencies lower.

I then tried changing the power settings in BIOS from Auto -> Performance, stress tested again - and now my cores are at full turbo under stress test (4.5-4.7).

I noticed however that my idle temps are up 3-5 celsius (from 39 to 43-45) and temps during load are also moderately higher.

 

If my CPU won't under perform in games like you say, I'd like to turn the power settings to auto again, to keep down the temps and considering my fans aren't high end. Do you think I can turn it back to auto without losing performance?

[GhostRoadieBL]

2 minutes ago, abalone said:

 

Interesting, thank you for the explanation!

I tried Prime95 stress testing which also locked the frequencies lower.

I then tried changing the power settings in BIOS from Auto -> Performance, stress tested again - and now my cores are at full turbounder stress test (4.5-4.7).

I noticed however that my idle temps are up 2 celsius (from 39 to 41) and temps during load are also slightly higher.

 

If my CPU won't under perform in games like you say, I'd like to turn the power settings to auto again, to keep down the temps and considering my fans aren't high end. Do you think I can turn it back to auto without losing performance?

when you use prime95 you can change how many threads or instances are running, change it to 2 and you can see how the clockspeed runs higher because less cores are active, temps will be slightly lower but pretty close to all cores active as well

absolutely, swap it back to auto and it won't make a major difference in game performance. maybe 2-5fps difference depending on how optimized the game is at using the cpu

[abalone]

1 minute ago, GhostRoadieBL said:

when you use prime95 you can change how many threads or instances are running, change it to 2 and you can see how the clockspeed runs higher because less cores are active, temps will be slightly lower but pretty close to all cores active as well

So, when I ran at 16 threads, basically my "Performance" mode I set in BIOS unlocked PL so that EVERY core can run at 4,7GHz? Which probably is extreme and not needed in my case?

[GhostRoadieBL]

6 minutes ago, abalone said:

So, when I ran at 16 threads, basically my "Performance" mode I set in BIOS unlocked PL so that EVERY core can run at 4,7GHz? Which probably is extreme and not needed in my case?

if you can keep the temps under 100C and don't mind the fan noise, more performance is always nice to have. If you don't want the noise losing a couple FPS in games is not that big a deal and you can always turn it back on when you need the extra performance to hold off a future upgrade. 

[abalone]

13 minutes ago, GhostRoadieBL said:

if you can keep the temps under 100C and don't mind the fan noise, more performance is always nice to have. If you don't want the noise losing a couple FPS in games is not that big a deal and you can always turn it back on when you need the extra performance to hold off a future upgrade. 

I'll turn it off for now. Thanks for the help!

[unclewebb]

@abalone For maximum performance, you need to increase the turbo power limits. It is OK to do this to an Intel CPU as long as your temps are OK.

 

The non K processors have a locked maximum multiplier. With these, you need to enable the core C states, at least core C3, in the BIOS so the CPU can access the highest possible multiplier which is 48.

 

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/199318/intel-core-i7-10700f-processor-16m-cache-up-to-4-80-ghz.html

 

Many popular monitoring programs do not report the CPU speed accurately when these CPUs are lightly loaded and using the highest multiplier. 

[abalone]

12 hours ago, unclewebb said:

@abalone For maximum performance, you need to increase the turbo power limits. It is OK to do this to an Intel CPU as long as your temps are OK.

 

The non K processors have a locked maximum multiplier. With these, you need to enable the core C states, at least core C3, in the BIOS so the CPU can access the highest possible multiplier which is 48.

 

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/199318/intel-core-i7-10700f-processor-16m-cache-up-to-4-80-ghz.html

 

Many popular monitoring programs do not report the CPU speed accurately when these CPUs are lightly loaded and using the highest multiplier. 

I enabled C states and it seemed to work. However after putting C states at "Auto" again, it works still. And now there's a tiny tiny buzzing sound from the computer, like a midget fly trapped in there

[unclewebb]

2 hours ago, abalone said:

C states at "Auto"

The definition of Auto can change. Best to set these manually to either Enabled or Disabled if you have those options in the BIOS.

 

Some computers do make weird noises depending on whether the C states are enabled or not. These noises come from the power delivery circuits on the motherboard and are more irritating than harmful.

 

Intel CPUs with locked multipliers need to have either core C3, C6 or C7 enabled so the turbo boost function works correctly. C1E is optional and the package C states are optional. Try toggling these on and off in the BIOS. You might get lucky and find a combination that supports full turbo boost and does not sound like an insect trapped in your computer case.

[Nocturn]

17 hours ago, abalone said:

Hey!

I'm running an 10700F (no K) and ASUS B460-F.

Base clock speed is 2.9GHz and max speed is 4.7GHz. I have High Performance mode enabled in Windows, and whilst idling they are clocked at 4.7GHz. When I run games, however, the cores downclock to 3.6-3.8GHz. We're talking temperatures at 60-64C and CPU usage between of 40-70%. Can anyone tell me why my CPU isn't running at 4.6 when under load? I know my CPU is "locked" somehow, but shouldn't it (considering energy savings is turned off) run at max clock speed in games as well? My PSU is a Corsair 650W.

What are your AVX offsets?

[abalone]

1 hour ago, Oblivion_Creature said:

What are your AVX offsets?

I don't know what those are. How would I check this?

[abalone]

2 hours ago, unclewebb said:

The definition of Auto can change. Best to set these manually to either Enabled or Disabled if you have those options in the BIOS.

 

Some computers do make weird noises depending on whether the C states are enabled or not. These noises come from the power delivery circuits on the motherboard and are more irritating than harmful.

 

Intel CPUs with locked multipliers need to have either core C3, C6 or C7 enabled so the turbo boost function works correctly. C1E is optional and the package C states are optional. Try toggling these on and off in the BIOS. You might get lucky and find a combination that supports full turbo boost and does not sound like an insect trapped in your computer case.

I see. Right now my idle temps are at 29c and my boost seems to be working to full clock. I really don't mind the noise (which is only audible if you put your ear to the computer). I feel like i don't wanna mess around with it, but keep it at auto.

 

But if this becomes a problem - do you mean disable all C states and then trying to enable the ones you mentioned one at a time?

 

Edit: ok i noticed now, when usage hits 70%+ in games, clock reduces to 3.6

[unclewebb]

4 hours ago, abalone said:

clock reduces to 3.6

Have you increased the turbo power limits yet?

[abalone]

2 hours ago, unclewebb said:

Have you increased the turbo power limits yet?

Ok, I found it.

My MB has a "Performance Enhancer", which does exactly this - raises the power limits and overrides the locked PLs. With this setting on and C3 on, my idle temp sits at 35-40C (sometimes jumps to 60 for a brief second?) and my load temps reach 70-82C.

Is this safe to keep on?

 

So basically either I hit 70-85C, prevent power throttling, hit 4,7GHz and get a few more FPS, or I sit at 60-65C with power throttling and lower performance? Is my cooling really that shitty? Tried BF V and temps linger at 85-92C now

 

im monitoring with XTU looking at "Package Temperature"

[unclewebb]

2 hours ago, abalone said:

Is this safe to keep on?

Any temperature under 100°C is a safe operating temperature. That is why Intel has been setting the thermal throttling temperature to 100°C for the vast majority of their CPUs since Core i was first introduced in 2008. The Intel docs for the 10700F shows the maximum temperature.

 

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/199318/intel-core-i7-10700f-processor-16m-cache-up-to-4-80-ghz.html

 

Most mobile Intel CPUs run for many hours while gaming at over 90°C without any issues. As long as you are stable, your CPU will take care of itself.

 

What are your voltage settings? If you want lower temps, make sure you are not using default voltage in the BIOS. This is always too much and it is not necessary. Here is an example.

 

 

[abalone]

24 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

Any temperature under 100°C is a safe operating temperature. That is why Intel has been setting the thermal throttling temperature to 100°C for the vast majority of their CPUs since Core i was first introduced in 2008. The Intel docs for the 10700F shows the maximum temperature.

 

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/199318/intel-core-i7-10700f-processor-16m-cache-up-to-4-80-ghz.html

 

Most mobile Intel CPUs run for many hours while gaming at over 90°C without any issues. As long as you are stable, your CPU will take care of itself.

 

What are your voltage settings? If you want lower temps, make sure you are not using default voltage in the BIOS. This is always too much and it is not necessary. Here is an example.

 

 

That's interesting. I will check the voltage settings in BIOS and get back to you tomorrow. I skimmed through the thread you linked and can't say I follow it all, I'm way too new at this. I'll do my best and probably take some pictures from bios tomorrow.

 

I'd really love to be able to push temps down a little bit while still maintaining high power limits to keep a steady turbo boost.

 

Also, gigantic thanks for the help. This knowledge is truly useful.

[abalone]

1 hour ago, unclewebb said:

Any temperature under 100°C is a safe operating temperature. That is why Intel has been setting the thermal throttling temperature to 100°C for the vast majority of their CPUs since Core i was first introduced in 2008. The Intel docs for the 10700F shows the maximum temperature.

 

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/199318/intel-core-i7-10700f-processor-16m-cache-up-to-4-80-ghz.html

 

Most mobile Intel CPUs run for many hours while gaming at over 90°C without any issues. As long as you are stable, your CPU will take care of itself.

 

What are your voltage settings? If you want lower temps, make sure you are not using default voltage in the BIOS. This is always too much and it is not necessary. Here is an example.

 

 

Here are the voltage options and stats. Most of it seems greyed out though?

I think cpu core voltage at max clock is 1.3-1.4?

[unclewebb]

@abalone I start by enabling SVID in the BIOS. After that, go to Ai Tweaker, scroll down to the Core/Cache Voltage setting, change this to Offset Mode and set it to a negative (-) offset. For a -75 mV offset, enter 0.075 into the Core Voltage Offset box. All CPUs are different so after you boot up, do some stability testing. Your gaming temps and stability test temps should be lower compared to your default voltage setting. 

 

My voltage (1.305V) is quite a bit higher because I have my motherboard setup to boot at full turbo boost speed. This does not change the offset being used. I prefer using software while in Windows for CPU voltage control. Setting the voltage in the BIOS is how most people adjust their voltages. For better quality BIOS screenshots, insert a USB memory stick before you boot up and press the F12 key.

 

 

At 2900 MHz your CPU is at 0.995V in the BIOS. After an undervolt, HWiNFO shows my actual voltage at 2900 MHz is 0.861V.

You should have no problem reducing your CPU voltage while still being 100% stable.

 

[abalone]

10 hours ago, unclewebb said:

@abalone I start by enabling SVID in the BIOS. After that, go to Ai Tweaker, scroll down to the Core/Cache Voltage setting, change this to Offset Mode and set it to a negative (-) offset. For a -75 mV offset, enter 0.075 into the Core Voltage Offset box. All CPUs are different so after you boot up, do some stability testing. Your gaming temps and stability test temps should be lower compared to your default voltage setting. 

 

My voltage (1.305V) is quite a bit higher because I have my motherboard setup to boot at full turbo boost speed. This does not change the offset being used. I prefer using software while in Windows for CPU voltage control. Setting the voltage in the BIOS is how most people adjust their voltages. For better quality BIOS screenshots, insert a USB memory stick before you boot up and press the F12 key.

 

 

At 2900 MHz your CPU is at 0.995V in the BIOS. After an undervolt, HWiNFO shows my actual voltage at 2900 MHz is 0.861V.

You should have no problem reducing your CPU voltage while still being 100% stable.

 

Ok. So I unlocked the limits, reduced voltage by 100mV and used Cinebench & TS for monitoring. After a while temps hit 95C.

 

 

Update: Ok, the temperatures when running Prime95 are down by 10C to 69-74C.

I gave BF V a spin at maxed out settings, and temp is at 70-80 now, so 8-10C LOWER! Powers are unlocked. Keeping it under 80 without performance loss is amazing! I'm not 100% sure if it's because it's morning, or if the undervolt is doing what it should.

 

TS Bench tells me "8.2" something, and I had zero issues while playing. So I should be fine with -100mV right? Feels better to have temps not hit 90C. Such an amazing fix.

 

Still quite worried about the 95C in Cinebench though. But turning back power limits - Cinebench runs at 3GHz instead of 4.7.

 

Maybe I can turn down these? 

 

Or I simply shouldn't stress test it while PL are unlocked?

[unclewebb]

8 hours ago, abalone said:

Or I simply shouldn't stress test it while PL are unlocked?

Of course you should stress test your CPU when it is fully unlocked. Why not? The 10700F and the 10700KF are the exact same CPU, coming down the exact same assembly line. Intel locks the maximum multiplier on one and leaves it unlocked on the other. Users stress test their 10700KF processors for hours at 5.1 GHz and beyond. If Intel processors were blowing up, Intel would fix the problem. Intel has been doing this for years. They left the power limits unlocked so the rest of their customers do not switch to AMD. Reducing voltage also helps keep your CPU temps competitive with the competition.

 

Intel reduces the default power limit to 65W for marketing purposes. It lets eco friendly consumers believe that they have purchased a low power CPU. You can run it at this setting or you can run it at full power. The choice is yours. By reducing the voltage, you are putting less stress on your CPU. No worries. 

 

8 hours ago, abalone said:

Maybe I can turn down these?

Why would you want to? You cannot overclock your CPU so it is already running slower than a similar K series CPU. Why would you want to slow it down further? 

 

After adjusting your voltages run some stress tests like the TS Bench test. The time you get in this test is not important. If it reports errors, you have gone too far with your undervolt.

 

https://i.imgur.com/DyqiivD.png

 

8 hours ago, abalone said:

Still quite worried about the 95C in Cinebench

Why? Intel has been setting the thermal throttling temperature to 100°C for the vast majority of Core i CPUs they have produced for over 12 years. If this was causing problems, they would lower the thermal throttling temperature. Your CPU is well designed to look after itself.

 

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/199318/intel-core-i7-10700f-processor-16m-cache-up-to-4-80-ghz.html

[abalone]

3 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

Of course you should stress test your CPU when it is fully unlocked. Why not? The 10700F and the 10700KF are the exact same CPU, coming down the exact same assembly line. Intel locks the maximum multiplier on one and leaves it unlocked on the other. Users stress test their 10700KF processors for hours at 5.1 GHz and beyond. If Intel processors were blowing up, Intel would fix the problem. Intel has been doing this for years. They left the power limits unlocked so the rest of their customers do not switch to AMD. Reducing voltage also helps keep your CPU temps competitive with the competition.

 

Intel reduces the default power limit to 65W for marketing purposes. It lets eco friendly consumers believe that they have purchased a low power CPU. You can run it at this setting or you can run it at full power. The choice is yours. By reducing the voltage, you are putting less stress on your CPU. No worries. 

 

Why would you want to? You cannot overclock your CPU so it is already running slower than a similar K series CPU. Why would you want to slow it down further? 

 

After adjusting your voltages run some stress tests like the TS Bench test. The time you get in this test is not important. If it reports errors, you have gone too far with your undervolt.

 

https://i.imgur.com/DyqiivD.png

I understand, thank you for explaining.

 

At -100mV I had no errors with TS, and better temps in games. However, my temps still hit 90-96C with Cinebench 23 in under a minute. That's why I thought of reducing the speeds. 

 

Should I set PL at max? Or just raise them?

 

I'll experiment some more with undervolting and run stability tests