Big problem

[Reflow4]

why when i load into rainbow six siege it breaks my CPU and what i mean by that is it makes my CPU go down to 800mhz and no higher 

 

my system config 

Intel Core i7 10700k

Nvidia Geforce RTX 2070 Super 

[bmx6454]

little to go on, but maybe the cpu is overheating?

[Reflow4]

Just now, bmx6454 said:

little to go on, but maybe the cpu is overheating?

no i have checked that, i have a corsair aio

[atxcyclist]

Go to your power settings and set it to "High Performance" mode.

 

In your Windows Search type "Power & Sleep Settings", select first result and when the screen comes up click on "additional power settings" on the right.

[Reflow4]

1 minute ago, atxcyclist said:

Go to your power settings and set it to "High Performance" mode.

i am on desktop and it's already on ultimate performance mode

[atxcyclist]

Just now, Reflow4 said:

i am on desktop and it's already on ultimate performance mode

If you open a web browser with task manager or your monitoring software up, does the processor go up to near the range you expect? It could be an issue with that newer hardware, but that seems odd.

[Reflow4]

1 minute ago, atxcyclist said:

If you open a web browser with task manager or your monitoring software up, does the processor go up to near the range you expect? It could be an issue with that newer hardware, but that seems odd.

yeah it's good right now

[Reflow4]

Someone on youtube said i should turn off BD PROCHOT

[straight_stewie]

2 hours ago, Reflow4 said:

Someone on youtube said i should turn off BD PROCHOT

Don't do that.

That is a service which helps your processor throttle itself when it gets too hot, and even shut the computer down if necessary. This is your last line of defense against a failed cooling component. As an example of how important this service is, disabling it and changing nothing else is considered overclocking by laptop manufacturers and even voids the warranty as such.

 

Are you sure it's the CPU clock and not the GPU clock that you're looking at? The GPU downclocking to 800mhz in Rainbow Six Siege is a known issue.

[Craftyawesome]

What temperatures are you getting? Is this a prebuilt or custom built?

 

41 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

Don't do that.

That is a service which helps your processor throttle itself when it gets too hot, and even shut the computer down if necessary. This is your last line of defense against a failed cooling component. As an example of how important this service is, disabling it and changing nothing else is considered overclocking by laptop manufacturers and even voids the warranty as such.

 

Are you sure it's the CPU clock and not the GPU clock that you're looking at? The GPU downclocking to 800mhz in Rainbow Six Siege is a known issue.

Are you thinking of PROCHOT (no BD)? AFAIK bi-directional processor hot is supposed to activate when something else is too hot. https://www.notebookcheck.net/How-to-Lower-Temperatures-Stop-Throttling-and-Increase-Battery-Life-The-ThrottleStop-Guide-2017.213140.0.html#:~:text=BD PROCHOT - Stands for Bi-directional Processor Hot.&text=BD PROCHOT is a system,to the point of throttling.

[straight_stewie]

1 hour ago, Craftyawesome said:

Are you thinking of PROCHOT (no BD)? AFAIK bi-directional processor hot is supposed to activate when something else is too

As far as I can tell, BD PROCHOT and PROCHOT are the same thing.

From Intels own i9-10900k datasheet (different processor, but first one in google results... It will be the same interface), volume one, available from Intel here: https://cdrdv2.intel.com/v1/dl/getContent/615211

 

Quote

• PROCHOT# Signal
  • PROCHOT# (processor hot) is asserted by the processor when the TCC is active. Only a single PROCHOT# pin exists at a package level. When any DTS temperature reaches the TCC activation temperature, the PROCHOT# signal will be asserted. PROCHOT# assertion policies are independent of Adaptive Thermal Monitor enabling.
• Bi-Directional PROCHOT#
  • By default, the PROCHOT# signal is set to input only. When configured as an input or bi-directional signal, PROCHOT# can be used for thermally protecting other platform components should they overheat as well. When PROCHOT# is driven by an external device:
    • The package will immediately transition to the lowest P-State (Pn) supported by the processor IA cores and graphics cores. This is contrary to the internally-generated Adaptive Thermal Monitor response.
    • Clock modulation is not activated.
• Voltage Regulator Protection Using PROCHOT#
  • PROCHOT# may be used for thermal protection of voltage regulators (VR). System designers can create a circuit to monitor the VR temperature and assert PROCHOT# and, if enabled, activate the TCC when the temperature limit of the VR is reached. When PROCHOT# is configured as a bi-directional or input only signal, if the system assertions of PROCHOT# is recognized by the processor, it will result in an immediate transition to the lowest P-State (Pn) supported by the processor IA cores and graphics cores. Systems should still provide proper cooling for the VR and rely on bi-directional PROCHOT# only as a backup in case of system cooling failure. Overall, the system thermal design should allow the power delivery circuitry to operate within it's temperature specification even whil the processor is operating at its TDP.
• Thermal Solution Design and PROCHOT# Behavior
  • With a properly designed and characterized thermal solution, it is anticipated that PROCHOT# will only be asserted for very short periods of time when running the most power intensive applications. The processor performance impact due to these brief periods of TCC activation is expected to be so minor that it would be immeasurable. However, an under-designed thermal solution that is not able to prevent excessive assertion of PROCHOT# in the anticipated ambient environment may:
    • Cause a noticeable performance loss.
    • Result in prolonged operation at or above the specified maximum junction temperature and affect the long-term reliability of the processor.
    • May be incapable of cooling the processor even when the TCC is active continuously (in extreme situations).
• Low-Power States and PROCHOT# Behavior
  • Depending on package power levels during package C-states, outbound PROCHOT@ may de-assert while the processor is idle as power is removed from the signal. Upon wake up, if the processor is still hot, the PROCHOT@ will re-assert. Although, typically package idle state residency should resolve any thermal issues. The PECI interface is fully operational during all C-states and it is expected that the platform continues to manage processor IA core and package thermals even during idle states by regularly polling for thermal data over PECI.

 

 

Long story short: PROCHOT# is a physical pin on the CPU, that can be configured to operate either as "input-only" (really, as an output from the processor) or "bi-directional" (input and output from the processor).

I am unable to find any information about whether or not disabling BD_PROCHOT in BIOS (if that is even an option for OPs motherboard) will also cause the motherboard to ignore the PROCHOT# pin assertion when the CPU tries to protect itself. Apparently there is a backup to this, where the CPU will still shut itself down without cooperation, albeit at a higher temperature than when PROCHOT# would be asserted. In this case the THERMTRIP# pin will be asserted.

 

I guess some people like the "ThrottleStop" application. Personally, I wouldn't use it anyway, and would rather look for the root cause of the issue rather than just treating the symptom, especially when treating the symptom in this case can have some fairly large downsides.

Personally, I would only ever attempt to disable or sidestep the PROCHOT system if, and only if, I can positively determine that that is indeed the root problem, and that the CPU is indeed operating within it's temperature limits, such that the problem must be a faulty PROCHOT system or on-die sensor, and I would only use this as a temporary solution while waiting for a replacement processor.

[Craftyawesome]

19 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

• PROCHOT# Signal
  • PROCHOT# (processor hot) is asserted by the processor when the TCC is active. Only a single PROCHOT# pin exists at a package level. When any DTS temperature reaches the TCC activation temperature, the PROCHOT# signal will be asserted. PROCHOT# assertion policies are independent of Adaptive Thermal Monitor enabling.
• Bi-Directional PROCHOT#
  • By default, the PROCHOT# signal is set to input only. When configured as an input or bi-directional signal, PROCHOT# can be used for thermally protecting other platform components should they overheat as well. When PROCHOT# is driven by an external device:
    • The package will immediately transition to the lowest P-State (Pn) supported by the processor IA cores and graphics cores. This is contrary to the internally-generated Adaptive Thermal Monitor response.
    • Clock modulation is not activated.

This still reads like BD is an additional throttle option and not the normal one IMO.

 

Anyway @Reflow4, what do the limit reason sections of either hwinfo or throttlestop show when this is happening? Also temperature?

[straight_stewie]

15 minutes ago, Craftyawesome said:

This still reads like BD is an additional throttle option and not the normal one IMO.

PROCHOT is just a pin. It can be set to "input only" (referred to as PROCHOT) or as "Bi-Directional" (referred to as BD_PROCHOT).

The only difference between the two is whether or not the processor will drive the PROCHOT# pin, or only listen to it. If in Bi-Directional mode, the processor may drive the pin to indicate that it is hot, essentially requesting cooperative cooldown, shutdown, or halt (Intel does not disclose what exactly it expects motherboard manufacturers to do with this in publicly available documentation).

In either configuration, the processor will still protect itself, without cooperation or permission after the thermal trip temperature is reached, in which case the THERMTRIP# pin will be asserted by the processor.

All of this is a funny way of saying that if disabling BD_PROCHOT solves an issue, then one of the three holds:

1. You have a faulty or failing processor
2. You have a faulty or failing motherboard
3. The processor is indeed running hot

If the third case is ruled out, then it would be wise to do a BIOS update and Intel Management Engine (this appears as a driver in Windows) update, or at least check for known problems with the versions you are using, before proceeding, as those could be causes of a "faulty or failing processor/motherboard".

[Craftyawesome]

21 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

• PROCHOT# Signal
  • PROCHOT# (processor hot) is asserted by the processor when the TCC is active. Only a single PROCHOT# pin exists at a package level. When any DTS temperature reaches the TCC activation temperature, the PROCHOT# signal will be asserted. PROCHOT# assertion policies are independent of Adaptive Thermal Monitor enabling.
• Bi-Directional PROCHOT#
  • By default, the PROCHOT# signal is set to input only. When configured as an input or bi-directional signal, PROCHOT# can be used for thermally protecting other platform components should they overheat as well. When PROCHOT# is driven by an external device:
    • The package will immediately transition to the lowest P-State (Pn) supported by the processor IA cores and graphics cores. This is contrary to the internally-generated Adaptive Thermal Monitor response.
    • Clock modulation is not activated.

Does default mean early boot or something almost always changed by motherboard manufacturers? Throttlestop says BD PROCHOT is on with my desktop, and I don't think I changed it. It just seems strange to mention how PROCHOT will trigger without mentioning it could be inactive.

 

2 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

PROCHOT is just a pin. It can be set to "input only" (referred to as PROCHOT) or as "Bi-Directional" (referred to as BD_PROCHOT).

Are you saying that the pin is on based on configuration? Or am I misinterpreting that? Older documents called it the PROCHOT# Signal Pin.

[straight_stewie]

24 minutes ago, Craftyawesome said:

Does default mean early boot or something almost always changed by motherboard manufacturers?

In this case I would assume that "default" translates to "configuration at power applied" (Although that's a simplification).

At the level we are viewing the CPU at in this conversation, it is very difficult to be precise, and any thorough explanation will invariably assume some base level understanding of microprocessor system integration on all sides of the conversation. 

 

24 minutes ago, Craftyawesome said:

Are you saying that the pin is on based on configuration?

It would be more correct to say that the behavior of the PROCHOT subsystem can be configured by configuring the pin, which happens to be named PROCHOT# (the octothorp denotes it as a physical pin as opposed to the PROCHOT functionality)

If it is "default" (input-only), then the CPU can only receive throttling requests.

 

If it is "bi-directional" (input-output), then the CPU can both receive and generate throttling requests.

 

 

 

 

Again, it must be stated that this setting will not prevent the CPU from throttling itself. It will only prevent the CPU from informing the motherboard through PROCHOT#.

 

Reading the docs on it again, it seems that if disabling BD_PROCHOT solves the issue, it's likely that the processor is the most likely culprit. I think this because the docs say:

Quote

When configured as an input or bi-directional signal, PROCHOT# can be used for thermally protecting other platform components should they overheat as well. When PROCHOT# is driven by an external device:

• The package will immediately transition to the lowest P-State (Pn) supported by the processor IA cores and graphics cores. This is contrary to the internally-generated Adaptive Thermal Monitor response.

 

Since, when playing the game, his processor moves to 800MHZ and stays there, I'm willing to assume that the motherboard is driving PROCHOT#. This is a safe assumption to make even if false, because the end solution is simply a BIOS update, which when done correctly is nearly risk free. However, that is still conjecture... To make the determination between processor and motherboard problem we need as follows:

@Reflow4 Can you install either HWinfo or ThrottleStop and tell us the status of THERMTRIP# and PROCHOT# when this issue happens? The only way THERMTRIP# can be asserted is if the processor asserts it. If it is asserted, it means that the processor is initiating the throttling. If the issue is happening when PROCHOT# is asserted and THERMTRIP# is not asserted, it means that the motherboard is initiating the throttling.