2D graphics workstation

[threedee]

Disclosure: building pcs since 286's, last pc built in 2012/13, a bit behind times.

Location: UK

Budget: To be determined, exploring options.

Screens to run: 2x24" (1080p, or a bit higher ?)

I had a discussion with my boss today about renewing graphics workstations at our advertisement/signmaking company.

At the moment the plan is to get rid of all old barely functioning hardware (celerons/i3's), that run operations in way too fragmented manner - too many old computers doing separate things in the shop. Too much usb key hopping, different software versions and general inconvenience of having too many chairs to sit in during the day (technically needlessly)...

I need to figure out the platform for next build that will do most of the things we need (will describe later).
My main concern is intel/amd choice, core counts and how each performs in 2d vector graphics production role.
Do i go for (historically) stable intel performance with less cores or go for AMD's fabled new (3700/3800?) chips ? (To be clear: although intel rep dipped in recent times, i'm not here for the intel/amd drama - need performance advice.)...
Do i need a dedicated GPU for that sort of work ? Would it help ? How much would it help ? Definitely no need for rtx2080ti's in this case (pity, though ) but is there a point in slapping in old gtx970/980 over integrated ? I do use 970 at home with coreldrawx6, it works fine, i just dont know how much of a difference it makes over intel integrated (and i'm not pulling my machine apart to find out )

Software and hardware we use in the shop for the most part are CorelDraw x8/x9, Roland RIP for superwide solvent printer/cutter, couple of Graphtec plotters, NanoCAD/Artcam for large cabinetmakers cnc router (tekcel v-series 3x2m beastie, might need accellerated opengl capability for this one for toolpath preview(artcam2018)).

Also, there is the need for centralised storage solution, like NAS of some sort, with which i dont have any experience at all. Want to get something that will let me do redundant storage to 2 sets of drives (i'm not familiar with raid types).

Screens: 24in is absolutely fine, not sure of the need of 144/240hz. Panel color quality/price is more important. Flat panels, curviness in precision work is a no from us.

For memory, i think we do need 32gb as sometimes we get monster bitmaps to print on the monster printer we have. Curent machine handling printing has 16gb and handles well, but looking to the future may need moar.

For local storage 1tb nvme's should suffice, as most storage would be handled by NAS.

Budget is not unlimited, but not set yet. However we both agreed that performance takes priority over RGB nonsense. Basic cases(no glass/windows), adequate for cpu/gpu but reliable power supplies (no need for watt overkill here), air cooling (stability is key, no OC), no game'y gimmicks (pc moonlighting as a christmas tree) etc... Keep it as low cost as possible. To quote boss "we're not a corporation".

I'm off to raid some cpu benching sites now, and although its more of a general query if someone have something more specific to feed me then i'd appreciate it...

In general we need a machine capable of shoving LOADS of flat vectors and monster printing processing for as little money as possible.

Any advice is welcome and appreciated, educate me...

[Bombastinator]

Advertising? The phrase “just get a Mac” is on the top of my tongue...  it would seriously make your life simpler, but if 286s are still prevalent the cheapness/false economy factor may be too entrenched.

 

The big question is software.  You’re buying these things to run software packages, not gaming, so software is up in the air.  What software do you need to run?

[threedee]

23 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Advertising? The phrase “just get a Mac” is on the top of my tongue...  it would seriously make your life simpler, but if 286s are still prevalent the cheapness/false economy factor may be too entrenched.

Sorry, i'm a boring suit guy in this scenario, always was, always will be. No macs for me . Also, i do still have 286 stashed somewhere... just in case...

 

As for serious part... Software is old, this comes up all the time. However, we expect software to evolve faster than hardware, hence upgrading hardware for futureproofing. I still run a second gen i7 with gtx970 and it works just fine (built in 2012-13?). However doing complex 2d graphics on an i3 is a bit of an ask, hence upgrade. Coreldraw CRAWLS on 2nd gen i3.

The whole "upgrade shenanigans" hapening because we are reorganising/expanding our workshop, decluttering, streamlining software/hardware. It doesnt matter that "old" software is not multicore NOW. We'll fix that in near future, but for that we need good workstations to be in place.

[Bombastinator]

33 minutes ago, threedee said:

Sorry, i'm a boring suit guy in this scenario, always was, always will be. No macs for me . Also, i do still have 286 stashed somewhere... just in case...

 

As for serious part... Software is old, this comes up all the time. However, we expect software to evolve faster than hardware, hence upgrading hardware for futureproofing. I still run a second gen i7 with gtx970 and it works just fine (built in 2012-13?). However doing complex 2d graphics on an i3 is a bit of an ask, hence upgrade. Coreldraw CRAWLS on 2nd gen i3.

The whole "upgrade shenanigans" hapening because we are reorganising/expanding our workshop, decluttering, streamlining software/hardware. It doesnt matter that "old" software is not multicore NOW. We'll fix that in near future, but for that we need good workstations to be in place.

I don’t have specific advice, just general stuff.  It may be useful it may not.  I’m old though and I like to ramble.

 

The reason the creatives like macs isn’t about tech knowledge.  It’s about lack of tech knowledge.  They want to get something done where the computer is a necessary annoyance, and macs produce the least annoyance.  A problem you may run into though is you’ll have heavy hardware that doesn’t have new software for it.  Plotter style Vinyl letter cutters, something like that which isn’t going to like anything but it’s own software running its ancient decrepit OS.  For that you need virtualization.  Macs virtualize better than PCs generally because macs are Unix and virtualization was invented for Unix.  Apple knows it and their enterprise grade software is (or was at least) ridiculously expensive.  You’ll likely have to virtualize at least some stuff while you’re waiting to upgrade things.  That kind of garbage never happens all at once and things can’t just stop till everything is through the mail, delivered, installed, and working.

 

Microsoft OS will virtualize.  Not as neatly, but they do it.  You can run some ancient thing that only works in windows95 or something (or 10 of them) inside another Machine that has a modern hardened OS.  VMware used to be the thing.  It’s probably not anymore.  There are people here far less out of the loop than me.  Still in it even.

Youll likely want to go multicore.  More cores means more crud you can run at once.  At least one big boy that can run all those instances for your old equipment.

Then there are the creatives. “Just buy a Mac” comes up again here.  Creatives are expensive to run and keeping them on task is a pain.  Giving them something they don’t have to relearn or expending extra brain cycles managing has its points when those brain cycles are converted into dollars.  Which is what paychecks do after all.  If they’re used to PCs though a PC will be more effective for that.

 

Youre probably going to need some pro  GPUs  For really precise color.  It’s been a very long time since I did signage.  Back then 10bit color was fringe. Gaming GPUs are 8 bit.  You can get 12? Bit color out of Nvidia gaming cards if you use the studio drivers.  A lot of signage is spot color though.  8 bit will be more than enough.  That could get you a long way budget wise.  Pro GPUs cost orders of magnitude more than gaming GPUs.  So Nvidia for GPU, thread count over MHz for CPU, because more threads means longer service life generally, and a major virtualization point for legacy hardware.  Or just buy macs.  The clients will be more impressed.  They’re all graphic designers to begin with.

 

 

 

 

[threedee]

I AM the creative here, btw With many a screwdriver in my pocket (and a soldering iron, and some spanners too).

I do my "mac"'ing on pc for many years now, but since my boss knows i like to mess with pc's/electronics he came to me for advice. I usually run CNC's/plotters/printers, do some "designing", etc. Jack of all trades. Its a 4 person band, this company here - 3 of them (incl. boss) put stickers/plaques/ads/boards/signs up, 1 manufacturing/designing (that'd be me).

 

Software doesnt bother me at the moment, as all we use daily, although old, runs on win10 (some with some prodding, but still does). But some software, the heavy use ones (crldrw, rip printing) comes to a crawl on big files or complex geometries on old machines, hence upgrade requirement. I'm planning to use upgrades for many years to come, i dont chase novelty year to year. But well built machine WILL last 10 years. Mine did(well, nearly 10), i7-2600k on watercooling, since 2011-12, just replaced gpu at some point (when games became unplayable ). I'm still debating should i replace THAT one, as barring RDR2 i'm all pretty good still.. Runs crysis too...

 

As for all color accuracy thing... dont much use it anyway. Technically its good to have callibrated displays, spec gpus etc, but too costly for what we do here...

Just need a machine that will be able to shove complex 2d graphics out with upcoming software (whatever it  may be) for next 8-10 years.

[Bombastinator]

5 minutes ago, threedee said:

I AM the creative here, btw With many a screwdriver in my pocket (and a soldering iron, and some spanners too).

I do my "mac"'ing on pc for many years now, but since my boss knows i like to mess with pc's/electronics he came to me for advice. I usually run CNC's/plotters/printers, do some "designing", etc. Jack of all trades. Its a 4 person band, this company here - 3 of them (incl. boss) put stickers/plaques/ads/boards/signs up, 1 manufacturing/designing (that'd be me).

 

Software doesnt bother me at the moment, as all we use daily, although old, runs on win10 (some with some prodding, but still does). But some software, the heavy use ones (crldrw, rip printing) comes to a crawl on big files or complex geometries on old machines, hence upgrade requirement. I'm planning to use upgrades for many years to come, i dont chase novelty year to year. But well built machine WILL last 10 years. Mine did(well, nearly 10), i7-2600k on watercooling, since 2011-12, just replaced gpu at some point (when games became unplayable ). I'm still debating should i replace THAT one, as barring RDR2 i'm all pretty good still.. Runs crysis too...

 

As for all color accuracy thing... dont much use it anyway. Technically its good to have callibrated displays, spec gpus etc, but too costly for what we do here...

Just need a machine that will be able to shove complex 2d graphics out with upcoming software (whatever it  may be) for next 8-10 years.

Everything still applies then.  Mostly.  Pro GPUs won’t be needed.  The Nvidia gaming GPUs aren’t much more expensive than the AMD ones and they will do 12 bit color which is likely enough.  For longevity you want multithreading and core count.  Either SMT or hyperthreading. Doesn’t really matter.  Maybe one 3950 with an enterprise OS on it to virtualize what machine controllers can’t be salvaged (will also kick ass gaming btw) and some 2600x or 3600x machines for everything else. Those CPUs are 6/12 and they’re cheap.  Nvidia GPUs where needed. (This would also make for a heckuva LAN party) maybe a g2400 for secretarial work.  It’s only 4 core (older 4 core at that) and is an APU so it won’t need a video card. Everything else will though.  1550tis for the light duty stuff, but heavy duty graphics may need more.  The bigger cards have more horsepower.  It will depend on what is being done.  This system is overpowered for what you do, but it should last a while because of that.

[brob]

Something around a Ryzen 3600X on a B450 motherboard  with 16GB of memory and a 1TB QLC NVMe ssd is probably the sweet spot. 

 

A lower end gpu should be fine. But don't skimp too much as a decent gpu greatly improves productivity. This is especially so if you go with higher resolution monitors for the extra workspace.

 

When considering RAID, I would suggest RAID 1 (mirror) or 10. While level 5 is attractive it suffers from a critical shortcoming when used with larger drives. Array rebuilds with drives over 2TB can take over 24 hours. During that time any error can result in a total loss of data.

 

Prebuilt NAS can appear expensive but they are good investments. A 4 bay unit would allow for a 2 disk array to start with room for growth.

 

 

[threedee]

I'm starting to think that best course of action is to just buy old 5-6th gen(ish) i7 and cram loads of ram and an ssd into it.
Reason being 1500 quid wont buy me much more performance than old pro setup but for a fraction of a price (please prove me wrong with arguments).

[boggy77]

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD Ryzen 5 3600 3.6 GHz 6-Core Processor	£167.58 @ Aria PC
Motherboard	MSI B450 Gaming Plus MAX ATX AM4 Motherboard	£79.97 @ CCL Computers
Memory	G.Skill Trident Z Neo 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3600 Memory	£200.49 @ Alza
Storage	Sabrent Rocket 1 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive	£99.99 @ Amazon UK
Video Card	PowerColor Radeon RX 580 8 GB Red Dragon Video Card	£143.45 @ Ebuyer
Case	BitFenix Neos Black ATX Mid Tower Case	£26.99 @ Overclockers.co.uk
Power Supply	Corsair CX (2017) 550 W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply	£49.99 @ Amazon UK
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	£768.46
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-12-13 14:31 GMT+0000

 

this would be a great little 2d graphics machine

[brob]

2 hours ago, threedee said:

I'm starting to think that best course of action is to just buy old 5-6th gen(ish) i7 and cram loads of ram and an ssd into it.
Reason being 1500 quid wont buy me much more performance than old pro setup but for a fraction of a price (please prove me wrong with arguments).

 

Current gen cpu are significantly more powerful than 5/6 gen Intel. AMD Zen 2 cores have IPC close to that of 9th gen Intel. So they will outperform same clock 5/6 gen. Couple that with the fact that Zen 2 cpu have higher clocks and, while it doesn't make a big difference in 2D work, more multithreaded cores.

 

As @boggy77 illustrates one doesn't need anywhere near £1,500 to build something much more powerful than a 5/6 Gen i7.