RAM help

[K0rN b4LL]

I need help figuring out what ram I need to go with a 3600 cpu for my first gaming rig.   I saw one guide that said that 3200mhz CL14 was best for that (if I'm wrong please correct me) but I don't know what timings to go for.  I get lower is better but I don't really know what ideal is since it seems that alot of stats are about "ideal level for compatibility with so-and-so part" and if you go to high or two low they, i dunno, don't wanna work together properly or something.  

[Jurrunio]

you want best performance or best value?

[K0rN b4LL]

Value first, though I wouldn't mind knowing what the performance one is.

[Jurrunio]

1 hour ago, K0rN b4LL said:

Value first, though I wouldn't mind knowing what the performance one is.

Best value: 3200MHz CL16, since they are right before prices start jumping up really sharply. 

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/gLGxFT/crucial-ballistix-sport-lt-16-gb-2-x-8-gb-ddr4-3200-memory-bls2k8g4d32aesbk

Crucial seems to dump a lot of high quality memory dies here, which means cranking them to high frequency and still decent timings (say 3600MHz CL15) without too aggressive voltages is very possible.

 

best performance: on or slightly below 3800MHz with the lowest timings. Since you can't actually buy Gskill's 3800MHzx CL14 kit, the best goes to their 3600 CL14 kit

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/MFdrxr/gskill-trident-z-neo-16-gb-2-x-8-gb-ddr4-3600-memory-f4-3600c14d-16gtzn

Dabbing the voltage up a bit should let it run 3800MHz at even tighter timings no problem.

[Mathieu9836]

9 hours ago, Jurrunio said:

Best value: 3200MHz CL16, since they are right before prices start jumping up really sharply. 

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/gLGxFT/crucial-ballistix-sport-lt-16-gb-2-x-8-gb-ddr4-3200-memory-bls2k8g4d32aesbk

Crucial seems to dump a lot of high quality memory dies here, which means cranking them to high frequency and still decent timings (say 3600MHz CL15) without too aggressive voltages is very possible.

I would get this, you won't even notice a 5% increase going with a 275$ Trident Z kit, Crucial doesnt use cheap Hynix A dies so they generally OC very good.

[K0rN b4LL]

Appreciate it guys.

 

Sorry for the late reply, been sick all week and I work 12 hr days, but I still have a question about timings.   Are they set in place for each kit or do they change when you tweak settings.   Also is there really a difference between close timings like say 14-14-15-31 vs 14-14-14-34?   How different does it have to be to really make a difference?

[nick name]

Yeah, from someone that chased and later purchased performance after first purchasing with cost in mind -- you won't notice the difference unless you are quantifying the performance with benchmarks.  Which I did.  

[everettrules]

On 9/3/2019 at 11:32 PM, Jurrunio said:

Best value: 3200MHz CL16, since they are right before prices start jumping up really sharply. 

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/gLGxFT/crucial-ballistix-sport-lt-16-gb-2-x-8-gb-ddr4-3200-memory-bls2k8g4d32aesbk

Crucial seems to dump a lot of high quality memory dies here, which means cranking them to high frequency and still decent timings (say 3600MHz CL15) without too aggressive voltages is very possible.

 

best performance: on or slightly below 3800MHz with the lowest timings. Since you can't actually buy Gskill's 3800MHzx CL14 kit, the best goes to their 3600 CL14 kit

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/MFdrxr/gskill-trident-z-neo-16-gb-2-x-8-gb-ddr4-3600-memory-f4-3600c14d-16gtzn

Dabbing the voltage up a bit should let it run 3800MHz at even tighter timings no problem.

But no RGB 

[Mathieu9836]

38 minutes ago, K0rN b4LL said:

Appreciate it guys.

 

Sorry for the late reply, been sick all week and I work 12 hr days, but I still have a question about timings.   Are they set in place for each kit or do they change when you tweak settings.   Also is there really a difference between close timings like say 14-14-15-31 vs 14-14-14-34?   How different does it have to be to really make a difference?

Usually the second and third timings ( tRCD and tRP) are the same. So you see something like 14-14-14-34 or 14-16-16-36. To make things simple, the lower timings the better, and something like 3200mhz 14-14-14-34 usally can be overclocked to 3600mhz and more with very tight timings. On the other hand, 3000mhz 16-18-18-38 is usually Hynix A-dies and they don't OC very well. I would pick tighter timings over fast clockspeed because you can loosen the tight timing a bit a get faster clocspeed, like getting a cheap Crucial Ballistix Sport 3200mhz 15-16-16-38 with Micron E chips to 3600mhz with 16-18-18-36, or even 3200mhz 14-14-14-34 is possible with good chips.

 

[Jurrunio]

55 minutes ago, K0rN b4LL said:

Are they set in place for each kit or do they change when you tweak settings

They can change as you change frequency with XMP/DOCP enabled. At least this is what boards I've used so far do.

 

56 minutes ago, K0rN b4LL said:

Also is there really a difference between close timings like say 14-14-15-31 vs 14-14-14-34?   How different does it have to be to really make a difference?

It's just like asking how much sugar is too much in coffee/tea in terms of numbers of crystals, really hard to tell. I'd say more than 2 ticks of change in the first number has noticeable effect in performance, while more than 1 tick of change in the first number, more than 2 ticks of change in the second and third number has noticeable effect in the kit's OC potential.

 

21 minutes ago, everettrules said:

But no RGB 

Dont give a s*** about that. My case does not have transparent side panels.

[K0rN b4LL]

Sorry late reply again.

 

I'm a little confused on how boosting the ram works.  Does making the timings slower (like going form cl14 to cl16) boost the mhz?  Like if I bought Trident Z 3200 cl14 and changed the cl to 16 would that make the mhz go up to 3600 or down?  Also I read that (at least some) ram doesn't perform at the listed speed without boosting, so would I have to boost to get the 3200 anyways?

[Mathieu9836]

Clock speed and Timings are adjusted individually, so you can increase the number of clockspeed without touching the timings. Yyou can increase your memory clockspeed to lets say 3600mhz with the same timings, with this you have significant performance boost ( decreased latency) but often you need to increase voltage OR relax timings which are the number of cycles needed to perform a task like precharging memory or accessing a colomn or a row in the memory, or how much time the specific location on the memory is accessible to the CPu to read data. When you increase the clockspeed  you reduce the amount a time cycles last, so lets say you need to open a row and colomn in the memory for a total of 36 cycles, those cycles may last 100 nanoseconds but since you increase clockspeed by 15% this operation takes now 85 nanoseconds and it's not enough time for the data to be located. To counter this you relax the timings by settings those two actions to 20 cycles instead of 18 cycles, to give you back the 100 nanoseconds needed to perform those tasks.

Thats not exactly how it work, its way more complex then that but if you can understand the basics of that then you will have a greater time overlocking ram.

Thats why RAM performance need to be calculated in latency, because higher clockspeed with relaxed timings does not mean its faster then lower clockspeed and tighter timings.

[K0rN b4LL]

So which would you say is more important, the mhz or the timings?  Like would 3200 mhz with cl14 be better or would 3600mhz with cl16 be better?

 

On a side note I was looking at these two g.skill sets and had a question-

 

3200 mhz at cl 14

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/McH48d/gskill-trident-z-16gb-2-x-8gb-ddr3-3200-memory-f4-3200c14d-16gtzkw

 

3600 mhz at cl 16

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/ywYLrH/gskill-trident-z-16gb-2-x-8gb-ddr4-3600-memory-f4-3600c16d-16gtzkw

 

Are they actually different from one another or are they the same kit where one has been set to looser timings than the other?  Like could the 3600 one potentially go higher than the 3200 or are the internals the same?

[BigRom]

On 9/4/2019 at 11:32 AM, Jurrunio said:

Best value: 3200MHz CL16, since they are right before prices start jumping up really sharply. 

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/gLGxFT/crucial-ballistix-sport-lt-16-gb-2-x-8-gb-ddr4-3200-memory-bls2k8g4d32aesbk

Crucial seems to dump a lot of high quality memory dies here, which means cranking them to high frequency and still decent timings (say 3600MHz CL15) without too aggressive voltages is very possible.

This RAM man, the Crucial Ballistix range is assembled in my own country but its barely even sold here. Instead we get a ton of RGB bling RAM

[Mathieu9836]

13 hours ago, K0rN b4LL said:

So which would you say is more important, the mhz or the timings?  Like would 3200 mhz with cl14 be better or would 3600mhz with cl16 be better?

 

On a side note I was looking at these two g.skill sets and had a question-

 

3200 mhz at cl 14

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/McH48d/gskill-trident-z-16gb-2-x-8gb-ddr3-3200-memory-f4-3200c14d-16gtzkw

 

3600 mhz at cl 16

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/ywYLrH/gskill-trident-z-16gb-2-x-8gb-ddr4-3600-memory-f4-3600c16d-16gtzkw

 

Are they actually different from one another or are they the same kit where one has been set to looser timings than the other?  Like could the 3600 one potentially go higher than the 3200 or are the internals the same?

It all depends what chips are used in the Gskill kit, if those are B dies i would go for that because they OC pretty much the best, Crucial use only Micron E and Samsung B, the Gskill 3200mhz will mostly be Hynix A which are the worst of them all. Hynix CJR are very good chips but seems to be hard to find.

Look for a particular chips, not speed and timings, thats my opinion. Look for: Samsung B die, then Hynix CJR (not sure who use them), then Micron E (Crucial with AES in the SKU).

[Mathieu9836]

14 hours ago, K0rN b4LL said:

So which would you say is more important, the mhz or the timings?  Like would 3200 mhz with cl14 be better or would 3600mhz with cl16 be better?

I would take the 3200mhz CL14 because it's mostly going to be Samsung B, i doubt it's Micron E and it's certainly not Hynix A, maybe CJR which OC well. the 3600mhz CL16 kit MIGHT be Samsung B but can also be good Micron E, and from what i've seen so far Trident Z Neo use Samsung B dies so i would look into buying Trident Z Neo 3600mhz CL16 instead of the regular Trident Z, you may pay a premium just for the Neo thats something to consider.

[K0rN b4LL]

19 hours ago, Mathieu9836 said:

the Gskill 3200mhz will mostly be Hynix A which are the worst of them all.

 

18 hours ago, Mathieu9836 said:

I would take the 3200mhz CL14 because it's mostly going to be Samsung B,

So which one would it be then, B or not B?

According to this b-die finder thing it says that it is b-die-

https://benzhaomin.github.io/bdiefinder/

 

I'd rather avoid rgb so I didn't really wanna get the neo.  Shouldn't the normal Trident Z be the same thing but without the fancy lighting?  

Plus I'm not really set on the G.skill, I was just using that as an example.   I'm trying to figure out all I can before making a decision.

[Mathieu9836]

If you can afford B die sticks then get anything with them. I don't know if B-die finder is accurate, a guess it is.