3TB RAID 5 array

[TheGreatWizardCalder]

Hey, I'm looking to replace my current motley crew of hdds (1 600gb drive from a laptop and 2 750gb drives in raid 0). 
Anyways, looking to replace in RAID 5. So I remember a while back there was a huge thing about "DONT USE SEAGATE DRIVES THEY FAIL ACCORDING TO THIS TEST XDDDD". But that was pretty much just 1 type of drive and it had like a +.76% rate over the competing drive in that category. Was told WD blacks but I suspect it was just completely out of bias and not out of actual data.

TLDR looking for decent performance drives for RAID 5 that are available in 3tb. I have no bias towards any specific manufacturer, just looking for a solid, reliable, well priced option for my home PC. Array is used for storage and games so speed is important along with reliability.

 

I have a NAS, I'm just a data hoarder. 

[Electronics Wizardy]

why do you want 3tb? Id just get one big drive. Then make backups so data stays safe.

[TheGreatWizardCalder]

2 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

why do you want 3tb? Id just get one big drive. Then make backups so data stays safe.

back ups and redundancy are VERY different.
A RAID 5 array will not lose data unless under very specific, and unlikely circumstances.v

[Electronics Wizardy]

Just now, TheGreatWizardCalder said:

back ups and redundancy are VERY different.
A RAID 5 array will not lose data unless under very specific, and unlikely circumstances.v

I know that.

 

Do you really need the uptime of raid?

And raid can fail aswell, so its not perfect, and drive failure rates aren't that high, and single drive with backups is fine for most uses.

[TheGreatWizardCalder]

Just now, Electronics Wizardy said:

I know that.

 

Do you really need the uptime of raid?

And raid can fail aswell, so its not perfect, and drive failure rates aren't that high, and single drive with backups is fine for most uses.

Of course they're not failure proof, but they are significantly safer. If I'm being honest cost may drive to a different option if I end up having to upgrade different parts of my PC, but I'd PREFER a RAID 5 array. 
Currently all the drives in my PC AND NAS are coming up on 8-9 years old. So it's getting to be time for them to be replaced either way. One way or another I will have RAID 5 arrays haha.

[Electronics Wizardy]

Just now, TheGreatWizardCalder said:

Of course they're not failure proof, but they are significantly safer. If I'm being honest cost may drive to a different option if I end up having to upgrade different parts of my PC, but I'd PREFER a RAID 5 array. 
Currently all the drives in my PC AND NAS are coming up on 8-9 years old. So it's getting to be time for them to be replaced either way. One way or another I will have RAID 5 arrays haha.

Why not go with raid 1 of bigger drives? Easier to expand, fufills you need of raid for some reason, and is about the same price and easier to upgrade.

 

But really I see no reason why a single drive won't work here. 

[TheGreatWizardCalder]

7 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

Why not go with raid 1 of bigger drives? Easier to expand, fufills you need of raid for some reason, and is about the same price and easier to upgrade.

 

But really I see no reason why a single drive won't work here. 

My personal preference is RAID 5 over 1. In data protection and storage, redundancy is everything -- at least to me. 
I have lost data in the past due to mismanagement of files and/or drive failures/complications. It wasn't important data necessarily, but it was stuff of personal value to me. I prefer to take steps so that it doesn't happen. 

I'm by no means uninformed in tech (well maybe in terms of new tech releasing), so I don't need to be led to a specific outcome like someone building their own PC for the first time haha.

I do understand your concern/reasoning though. Don't worry, that's not lost on me.
I just prefer a RAID 5 array because to me, it has the most benefits - even though it requires an extra drive.


Don't get me wrong, I'll probably take your advice and put some lesser drives in my PC and spend the nice money on replacing/rebuilding my NAS haha. Looking at it from a different perspective makes that route a lot more reasonable.

[Electronics Wizardy]

Just now, TheGreatWizardCalder said:

My personal preference is RAID 5 over 1. In data protection and storage, redundancy is everything -- at least to me. 
I have lost data in the past due to mismanagement of files and/or drive failures/complications. It wasn't important data necessarily, but it was stuff of personal value to me. I prefer to take steps so that it doesn't happen. 

I'm by no means uninformed in tech (well maybe in terms of new tech releasing), so I don't need to be led to a specific outcome like someone building their own PC for the first time haha.

I do understand your concern/reasoning though. Don't worry, that's not lost on me.

backups are much better at protecting data though. Backups will keep your data safe if you delete a file, the psu kills all your dirves, you delete the raid array, or many other issues. Raid won't help you there. And since you don't seem to need the uptime of raid, having good backups is a much better way to protect your data than raid.

 

Id just get a few of these though for drives, cheap per tb and they work well. https://www.amazon.com/Elements-Desktop-Hard-Drive-WDBWLG0080HBK-NESN/dp/B07D5V2ZXD/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1549097784&sr=8-5&keywords=8tb+hdd

[TheGreatWizardCalder]

2 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

backups are much better at protecting data though. Backups will keep your data safe if you delete a file, the psu kills all your dirves, you delete the raid array, or many other issues. Raid won't help you there. And since you don't seem to need the uptime of raid, having good backups is a much better way to protect your data than raid.

 

Id just get a few of these though for drives, cheap per tb and they work well. https://www.amazon.com/Elements-Desktop-Hard-Drive-WDBWLG0080HBK-NESN/dp/B07D5V2ZXD/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1549097784&sr=8-5&keywords=8tb+hdd

Good points. For me it's just a pita to either make or schedule backups haha. 
And because I'm so used to managing all my data very manually it feels odd to have something doing it for me, and almost unnatural.

I'm also mildly confused, I'm looking for internal drives. Unless you mean to suggest I just buy them and then remove the drives.

[Electronics Wizardy]

1 minute ago, TheGreatWizardCalder said:

Good points. For me it's just a pita to either make or schedule backups haha. 
And because I'm so used to managing all my data very manually it feels odd to have something doing it for me, and almost unnatural.

I'm also mildly confused, I'm looking for internal drives. Unless you mean to suggest I just buy them and then remove the drives.

Yep just buy the external and take the drive out.

 

Its easy to setup automatic backups, really not much work. Windows has one built in that works well and will do it when you have the backup drive plugged in automatically, its probably simpler than raid.

[TheGreatWizardCalder]

Just now, Electronics Wizardy said:

Yep just buy the external and take the drive out.

 

Its easy to setup automatic backups, really not much work. Windows has one built in that works well and will do it when you have the backup drive plugged in automatically, its probably simpler than raid.

I do believe my NAS has (what is probably) a more robust backup and sync function.
And yeah I was hoping that was what you were suggestion. What kind of drives are they (if you know)? I'd assume an 8TB red or something similar.

[Electronics Wizardy]

Just now, TheGreatWizardCalder said:

I do believe my NAS has (what is probably) a more robust backup and sync function.
And yeah I was hoping that was what you were suggestion. What kind of drives are they (if you know)? I'd assume an 8TB red or something similar.

I think the new ones are based off the hgst 8tb models. Nothing really special. I think you can turn tler on if you want.

[TheGreatWizardCalder]

Just now, Electronics Wizardy said:

I think the new ones are based off the hgst 8tb models. Nothing really special. I think you can turn tler on if you want.

I'll take a look, personally I'm not about that material waste of the plastic etc. So I might just buy bare drives, but it's a good option.
I also don't know of the top of my head what you're referring to by tler.

[Electronics Wizardy]

Just now, TheGreatWizardCalder said:

I'll take a look, personally I'm not about that material waste of the plastic etc. So I might just buy bare drives, but it's a good option.
I also don't know of the top of my head what you're referring to by tler.

tler is the big feature of red drives, they time out if there is a error after around 8 seconds, keeps drives from falling out of a raid array, really only important with a hardware raid card though.

 

Id go external, cheaper, and you get a enclosure to store other drives in. Not really wasting it if you can reuse the parts.

[TheGreatWizardCalder]

1 minute ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

tler is the big feature of red drives, they time out if there is a error after around 8 seconds, keeps drives from falling out of a raid array, really only important with a hardware raid card though.

 

Id go external, cheaper, and you get a enclosure to store other drives in. Not really wasting it if you can reuse the parts.

Fair enough. I guess an external enclosure is one step up from the usb to SATA adapter I have sitting in my drawer.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

4 hours ago, TheGreatWizardCalder said:

back ups and redundancy are VERY different.
A RAID 5 array will not lose data unless under very specific, and unlikely circumstances.v

You are half right here; backups and redundancy ARE very different. (More on this in the second reply.)

 

Your second statement is wrong, however. A RAID 5 array (or any other level of RAID, for that matter) most definitely can lose data. RAIDs can break. If more than one drive should fail, you would lose data.

4 hours ago, TheGreatWizardCalder said:

Good points. For me it's just a pita to either make or schedule backups haha. 
And because I'm so used to managing all my data very manually it feels odd to have something doing it for me, and almost unnatural...

With the exception of 0, the only things all the levels of RAID provide are redundancy and, except for 1, combining multiple drives into one volume. There is a huge difference between redundancy and backups. Redundancy will only protect data from drive failures...up to a point. However, drive failure is only one way to lose data. Data can also be lost to viruses and other malware, fire, floods, user error (such as accidental deletion), damage to the computer (such as the cat knocking it to the floor), theft, PSU failure or a power surge barbecuing your drives, asteroid strike (rather extreme but still possible), etc. Redundancy will not protect you from any of these.

 

For data to be reasonably safe, it must exist in at three, separate places. For most people, the most practical way to achieve that is to have their data on the computer, on an onsite backup drive, and on an offsite backup drive.

 

For a backup drive to be a true backup, it must be kept separate from the computer and must be kept powered down and disconnected from the computer at all times except while updating the backup. Also, one should run antivirus and other antimalware scans immediately before updating a backup. This rules out all but one form of automatic backups since they all depend on the "backup" drive being connected to the computer all the time. While RAIDs can be used within a backup scheme, they must be kept disconnected from the computer and powered down at all times excepot when updating the backup. Also, physical offsite backup drives and onsite backup drives should be swapped out as often as practical to ensure the offsite backups are as up to date as possible.

 

The only form of automatic backup I will endorse is using a good, paid, cloud backup service (not cloud storage, especially the freebies or the el cheapos!) for the offsite backup (a cloud backup should never be the only backup). Backblaze is probably the best, followed by Carbonite.com. The upsides of a good cloud backup service are they are secure and work automatically in the background. Downsides are cost and a lack of speed (a good broadband internet connection with a high enough data cap is essential).

 

Yes, it is a PITA to remember to update backups (I have ADHD; remembering to do anything is a problem for me) but there are some things in life people just have to take responsibility for. There are ways to make dealing with updating backups easier, though.

 

First, segregating your System files (OS and programs) from your data allows the use of different backup programs for each which maxinmizes efficiency. Segregation is best achieved by keep the System files on their own drive or partition and data on it's own drive(s) or partition.

 

System files can be backed up and restored only by imaging and cloning. Imaging is far more efficient than cloning (cloning should only be used for duplicating drives) and will allow keeping multiple backups. Imaging is similar to film photography. An image can be used to restore files to the state they were in when the image was made, similar to how a photo is used to make a print of the original subject. For imaging I recommend Macrium Reflect Free (use this version; I saw a report that the latest version was causing BSODs on some computers).

 

While imaging is a must for backing up System files, it is far to inefficient for backing up data files, taking up too much time and space and, in the case of SSDs, using up too much write life. Data files are best backed up using a folder/file syncing program, such as Free/File/Sync (the one I use) or SyncToy (I never used it but it is popular). When set to Mirror Mode (not the same as RAID 1, btw), a folder/file syncing program will compare the data drive with the backup drive, then copy any data on the data drive that is not on the backup drive to the backup drive and delete any data on the backup drive that's no longer on the data drive from the data drive. There is also a feature, called Versioning, that, when enabled (which I strongly recommend), will send deleted files to a user designated versioning folder. This protects from losing accidentally deleted files.

 

I recommend imaging the System files just before updating the OS or a program, deleting a program, or changing any settings. While manually imaging on a schedule may make remembering to do so easier, it's not really needed except when I just mentioned. Also, images should be stored on an external drive. I cheat by putting my images in a folder on a data drive in my computer foir convenience but I can get away with it because the data drive, including the image folder, will get backed up to a proper backup drive.

 

Since only the changes made since the previous update are involved, folder/file syncing can be very fast and can be done on a schedule (manually!), it should also be done soon after adding or changing large amounts of data or data that will not be recoverable shortly afterwards.

 

Both imaging and folder/fle syncing are set and forget processed. You just connect the appropriate backup drive, start the process (which literally takes seconds to do), then forget about it until done. Imaging takes a little while but folder/file usually is pretty fast.

 

One good way to remember to backup your files is to set reminders on your computer. and/or develop the habit of doing so before or after certain events. Even with my ADHD (I have reminders on my computer to make sure the rent/utilites get paid, annual bills, like insurance and property taxes, get paid, change my AC filters, drain the water heater to flush out calium build up, etc.), I found getting in the habit of imaging (after running security scans) before updating the OS and programs, deleting programs, and changing settings as well as running my folder/file syncing programs after add or changing critical and/or unrecoverable data works well enough for me.

 

With the right setup, manually backing up your files doesn't have to be an insurmountable PITA. 

[TheGreatWizardCalder]

18 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

You are half right here; backups and redundancy ARE very different. (More on this in the second reply.)

 

Your second statement is wrong, however. A RAID 5 array (or any other level of RAID, for that matter) most definitely can lose data. RAIDs can break. If more than one drive should fail, you would lose data.

With the exception of 0, the only things all the levels of RAID provide are redundancy and, except for 1, combining multiple drives into one volume. There is a huge difference between redundancy and backups. Redundancy will only protect data from drive failures...up to a point. However, drive failure is only one way to lose data. Data can also be lost to viruses and other malware, fire, floods, user error (such as accidental deletion), damage to the computer (such as the cat knocking it to the floor), theft, PSU failure or a power surge barbecuing your drives, asteroid strike (rather extreme but still possible), etc. Redundancy will not protect you from any of these.

 

For data to be reasonably safe, it must exist in at three, separate places. For most people, the most practical way to achieve that is to have their data on the computer, on an onsite backup drive, and on an offsite backup drive.

 

For a backup drive to be a true backup, it must be kept separate from the computer and must be kept powered down and disconnected from the computer at all times except while updating the backup. Also, one should run antivirus and other antimalware scans immediately before updating a backup. This rules out all but one form of automatic backups since they all depend on the "backup" drive being connected to the computer all the time. While RAIDs can be used within a backup scheme, they must be kept disconnected from the computer and powered down at all times excepot when updating the backup. Also, physical offsite backup drives and onsite backup drives should be swapped out as often as practical to ensure the offsite backups are as up to date as possible.

 

The only form of automatic backup I will endorse is using a good, paid, cloud backup service (not cloud storage, especially the freebies or the el cheapos!) for the offsite backup (a cloud backup should never be the only backup). Backblaze is probably the best, followed by Carbonite.com. The upsides of a good cloud backup service are they are secure and work automatically in the background. Downsides are cost and a lack of speed (a good broadband internet connection with a high enough data cap is essential).

 

Yes, it is a PITA to remember to update backups (I have ADHD; remembering to do anything is a problem for me) but there are some things in life people just have to take responsibility for. There are ways to make dealing with updating backups easier, though.

 

First, segregating your System files (OS and programs) from your data allows the use of different backup programs for each which maxinmizes efficiency. Segregation is best achieved by keep the System files on their own drive or partition and data on it's own drive(s) or partition.

 

System files can be backed up and restored only by imaging and cloning. Imaging is far more efficient than cloning (cloning should only be used for duplicating drives) and will allow keeping multiple backups. Imaging is similar to film photography. An image can be used to restore files to the state they were in when the image was made, similar to how a photo is used to make a print of the original subject. For imaging I recommend Macrium Reflect Free (use this version; I saw a report that the latest version was causing BSODs on some computers).

 

While imaging is a must for backing up System files, it is far to inefficient for backing up data files, taking up too much time and space and, in the case of SSDs, using up too much write life. Data files are best backed up using a folder/file syncing program, such as Free/File/Sync (the one I use) or SyncToy (I never used it but it is popular). When set to Mirror Mode (not the same as RAID 1, btw), a folder/file syncing program will compare the data drive with the backup drive, then copy any data on the data drive that is not on the backup drive to the backup drive and delete any data on the backup drive that's no longer on the data drive from the data drive. There is also a feature, called Versioning, that, when enabled (which I strongly recommend), will send deleted files to a user designated versioning folder. This protects from losing accidentally deleted files.

 

I recommend imaging the System files just before updating the OS or a program, deleting a program, or changing any settings. While manually imaging on a schedule may make remembering to do so easier, it's not really needed except when I just mentioned. Also, images should be stored on an external drive. I cheat by putting my images in a folder on a data drive in my computer foir convenience but I can get away with it because the data drive, including the image folder, will get backed up to a proper backup drive.

 

Since only the changes made since the previous update are involved, folder/file syncing can be very fast and can be done on a schedule (manually!), it should also be done soon after adding or changing large amounts of data or data that will not be recoverable shortly afterwards.

 

Both imaging and folder/fle syncing are set and forget processed. You just connect the appropriate backup drive, start the process (which literally takes seconds to do), then forget about it until done. Imaging takes a little while but folder/file usually is pretty fast.

 

One good way to remember to backup your files is to set reminders on your computer. and/or develop the habit of doing so before or after certain events. Even with my ADHD (I have reminders on my computer to make sure the rent/utilites get paid, annual bills, like insurance and property taxes, get paid, change my AC filters, drain the water heater to flush out calium build up, etc.), I found getting in the habit of imaging (after running security scans) before updating the OS and programs, deleting programs, and changing settings as well as running my folder/file syncing programs after add or changing critical and/or unrecoverable data works well enough for me.

 

With the right setup, manually backing up your files doesn't have to be an insurmountable PITA. 

For the first bit, I mean it's not impossible ofc. But a double drive failure in RAID 5 is unlikely.


For the rest, I'll look into that. Plenty of good stuff worth committing to memory for future reference there.
I think the only thing I actually do in that stack of stuff is seperate data from programs and OS haha.

While for what I do, a paid online backup is not practical - the rest of these would definitely be worth putting into practice. Honestly all I have is is my personal data (images etc) and shadowplay stuff. Nothing too important, but I HATE losing data due to carelessness or drive failure. Especially when you spend time looking for it only to remember it got borked by something 6 months ago.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

2 minutes ago, TheGreatWizardCalder said:

While for what I do, a paid online backup is not practical

I agree, paid online backups are not for everyone. They do cost so much per year (although, when broken down tothe average per month cost, it's not so bad) but the real expense could come from an ISP (Internet Service Provider) that has a low data cap and/or a high monthly rate for a high enough bandwidth. It depends on your budget, what ISP you are stuck with, and how much data would be uploaded each month after the initial upload (and really large initial uploads could be problematic).

 

An offsite backup drive basically is a backup drive that is stored away from, in this case, your home. The best option is a bank safe deposit box but that's not always possible. While not as secure, an offsite backup drive could be stored at a trusted friend's or relative's home or in a locked desk or locker at work or school.

 

Backup drives can be conventional, selfcontained USB external backup drives or can be bare, internal type drives that get plugged into an external USB dock or an internal hot swap bay in the computer. Internal type drives are usually better quality than external drives and take up less room to store.

[TheGreatWizardCalder]

2 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

I agree, paid online backups are not for everyone. They do cost so much per year (although, when broken down tothe average per month cost, it's not so bad) but the real expense could come from an ISP (Internet Service Provider) that has a low data cap and/or a high monthly rate for a high enough bandwidth. It depends on your budget, what ISP you are stuck with, and how much data would be uploaded each month after the initial upload (and really large initial uploads could be problematic).

 

An offsite backup drive basically is a backup drive that is stored away from, in this case, your home. The best option is a bank safe deposit box but that's not always possible. While not as secure, an offsite backup drive could be stored at a trusted friend's or relative's home or in a locked desk or locker at work or school.

 

Backup drives can be conventional, selfcontained USB external backup drives or can be bare, internal type drives that get plugged into an external USB dock or an internal hot swap bay in the computer. Internal type drives are usually better quality than external drives and take up less room to store.

Right now even having an offsite backup is rather impractical for me. Honestly I'll probably just but replace the drives in my NAS and get some smaller drives and set them up in a very specific way. Honestly what I've been using is basically just a USB drive with what I consider essential on it (mainly photos and stuff for my classes) that I keep track of. Unfortunately that's the best I can do right now haha.

Personally I'm not that worried about my programs or drives. Those don't really need to be backed up haha.
 

[TheGreatWizardCalder]

Yeet

Each drive was 100$. One of the blues is for a friend, going to take my old NAS drives and use them as a game drive in PC (WD blacks) once I swap them out for the reds.
Blue was just bc it was 100$ so why not.


Thank you everyone in this thread for talking me out of spending 700$ on a RAID array haha