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floofer

Smurfing by AI in Starcraft 2?

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Posted Original PosterOP
8 minutes ago, mr moose said:

They limited APM,聽 but I didn't read anything about reaction or the a bilty to switch between interpretations of the map.聽 Have they accounted for physical hardware interfacing?聽 having they accounted for the fact every action has a delay to completion by humans.聽聽聽 It seems the article is light on on information.

It just seems they are pitting two very different system against one another,聽 once you account for the flaws that hold humans back it's a no brainier the AI iwould become faster and more capable.

This young gentleman explains it a little and adds his thoughts. That said, the AI has been beaten once or twice.聽

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13 minutes ago, mr moose said:

They limited APM,聽 but I didn't read anything about reaction or the a bilty to switch between interpretations of the map.聽 Have they accounted for physical hardware interfacing?聽 having they accounted for the fact every action has a delay to completion by humans.聽聽聽 It seems the article is light on on information.

It just seems they are pitting two very different system against one another,聽 once you account for the flaws that hold humans back it's a no brainier the AI iwould become faster and more capable.

Here's a discussion on some of it.聽

https://www.alexirpan.com/2019/02/22/alphastar.html

It's not a perfect limitation but it does exist.聽

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12 minutes ago, floofer said:

This young gentleman explains it a little and adds his thoughts. That said, the AI has been beaten once or twice.聽

9 minutes ago, comander said:

Here's a discussion on some of it.聽

https://www.alexirpan.com/2019/02/22/alphastar.html

It's not a perfect limitation but it does exist.聽

Not really in the right state of mind to give that information due consideration, I'll try to read it later.聽


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.聽 Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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On 7/13/2019 at 12:17 AM, mr moose said:

And even then the AI would still have a significant advantage with no muscle/nerve control delay, it's reactions would be virtually instant as a keyboard input.聽

Unless they can account for the physical motor control lag and mouse input lag etc then the advantage AI has would cloud the difference between biological brains and electronic ones.

And the fact it just sees entire frigging map by default... Is it really so hard to make it work within fog of war and allow it to see only what player itself has uncovered? Apparently.

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Posted Original PosterOP
2 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

And the fact it just sees entire frigging map by default... Is it really so hard to make it work within fog of war and allow it to see only what player itself has uncovered? Apparently.

It sees a camera view of the section, so not the whole map, like a normal player, but I suppose with automated hotkeys, it would switch between views quicker - but it does have to work within a limited apm.聽

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Just now, floofer said:

It sees a camera view of the section, so not the whole map, like a normal player, but I suppose with automated hotkeys, it would switch between views quicker - but it does have to work within a limited apm.聽

It can switch instantly, action a process instantly and can burst actions upto 1500APM's聽 All things a human can't do, but I really need to read/view those links to understand what method they implemented to mitigate that.聽 On the surface it seems there are just problems with testing to get qualifiable data.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.聽 Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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Posted Original PosterOP
26 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It can switch instantly, action a process instantly and can burst actions upto 1500APM's聽 All things a human can't do, but I really need to read/view those links to understand what method they implemented to mitigate that.聽 On the surface it seems there are just problems with testing to get qualifiable data.

1500APM is a bit much tbh. Burst APM I've seen is ~1100 / ~1200 for a human professional player.聽Around 400APM is the average, and the AI is meant to model that. Heres a quote from an聽article. [https://www.alexirpan.com/2019/02/22/alphastar.html]聽

Quote

On average, AlphaStar acts at 280 actions per minute, less than pro play, but this isn鈥檛 the full picture. According to theReddit AMA, the limitation is at most 600 APM every 5 seconds, 400 APM every 15 seconds, and 300 APM every 60 seconds. This was done to model both average pro APM and burst APM, since humans can often reach high peak APM in micro-intensive situations. During the match itself, viewers spotted that AlphaStar鈥檚 burst APM sometimes reached 900 or even 1500 APM, far above what we鈥檝e seen from any human.

So it really depends on how they calculate the average, I have personally seen the figure above (1100 etc) from humans in casted recs, so I'm not sure where they are getting that those figures are above any human. The more prominent issue with the AI is the reaction times (switching builds to counter, such as building detectors for Dark Templar early).聽

Not to say that APM is an issue - AlphaStar has perfect micro, and that is a huge issue, what I was saying in the OP about the Stalkers, effectively they (With AlphaStar's micro) have a counter. Beatable, but very very hard, because their in-game counter, the Immortal is nowhere near as effective.聽

We can see the results, so the authors of AlphaStar will release a paper documenting the games. So yes it might be unfair, we don't really know for sure, but this is an opt-out approach to testing on the multiplayer, so players can simply choose not to play when they login - and we can see the results in the paper at the end of the testing, and the authors analyses.

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15 minutes ago, floofer said:

1500APM is a bit much tbh. Burst APM I've seen is ~1100 / ~1200 for a human professional player.聽Around 400APM is the average, and the AI is meant to model that. Heres a quote from an聽article. [https://www.alexirpan.com/2019/02/22/alphastar.html]聽

So it really depends on how they calculate the average, I have personally seen the figure above (1100 etc) from humans in casted recs, so I'm not sure where they are getting that those figures are above any human. The more prominent issue with the AI is the reaction times (switching builds to counter, such as building detectors for Dark Templar early).聽

Not to say that APM is an issue - AlphaStar has perfect micro, and that is a huge issue, what I was saying in the OP about the Stalkers, effectively they (With AlphaStar's micro) have a counter. Beatable, but very very hard, because their in-game counter, the Immortal is nowhere near as effective.聽

We can see the results, so the authors of AlphaStar will release a paper documenting the games. So yes it might be unfair, we don't really know for sure, but this is an opt-out approach to testing on the multiplayer, so players can simply choose not to play when they login - and we can see the results in the paper at the end of the testing, and the authors analyses.

I don't actually see it as an issue of fairness,聽 but as condition of trying to gather useful information.聽 If building an AI that can think faster than a human is the goal, then accounting for reaction time is very important, because many little advantages the AI has that impede a humans progress could mask areas in need of improvement.聽


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.聽 Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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couldn't they run sc2 on a different pc and use a capture card and a otg mode on something and run the ai on another pc so as to have fog of war like us meatbags?


I am a christian I will not apoligize.

I play minecraft

The unanimous Declaration of the penguins independance

when in the Course of technological events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all computers are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are security and customizability . 鈥 That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, 鈥 That whenever any Form of Operating System becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Operating System, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their security and customizability. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Operating Systems long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Operating systems, and to provide new Guards for their future security. 鈥 Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of control. The history of microsoft windows is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these pc's. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

Microsoft has refused there Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

Microsoft has forbidden there users to pass patches of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till there Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, they have utterly neglected to attend to them.

Microsoft has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

Microsoft has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with there measures.

Microsoft has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

Microsoft has endeavoured to prevent the compitition to windows; for that purpose obstructing the The furthurment of technology; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of pcs.

Microsoft has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing there Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers..

Microsoft has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

Microsoft has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving there Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

Microsoft has abdicated Government Microsoft, by declaring us out of there Protection and waging War against us.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our human brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement Microsoft. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the penguins of linux, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent Operating System, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the Microsoft Emporer, and that all political connection between them and the Operating system windows, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Operating System, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent Operating Systems may of right do. 鈥 And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

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13 hours ago, will4623 said:

couldn't they run sc2 on a different pc and use a capture card and a otg mode on something and run the ai on another pc so as to have fog of war like us meatbags?

this latest version of DeepMind is exactly that, they have fog of war and can only via the screen only instead of whole map vision

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8 hours ago, RyomaSJibenG said:

this latest version of DeepMind is exactly that, they have fog of war and can only via the screen only instead of whole map vision

thx for clarifying!


I am a christian I will not apoligize.

I play minecraft

The unanimous Declaration of the penguins independance

when in the Course of technological events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all computers are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are security and customizability . 鈥 That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, 鈥 That whenever any Form of Operating System becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Operating System, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their security and customizability. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Operating Systems long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Operating systems, and to provide new Guards for their future security. 鈥 Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of control. The history of microsoft windows is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these pc's. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

Microsoft has refused there Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

Microsoft has forbidden there users to pass patches of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till there Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, they have utterly neglected to attend to them.

Microsoft has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

Microsoft has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with there measures.

Microsoft has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

Microsoft has endeavoured to prevent the compitition to windows; for that purpose obstructing the The furthurment of technology; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of pcs.

Microsoft has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing there Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers..

Microsoft has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

Microsoft has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving there Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

Microsoft has abdicated Government Microsoft, by declaring us out of there Protection and waging War against us.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our human brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement Microsoft. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the penguins of linux, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent Operating System, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the Microsoft Emporer, and that all political connection between them and the Operating system windows, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Operating System, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent Operating Systems may of right do. 鈥 And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

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On 7/11/2019 at 7:40 PM, SC2Mitch said:

The bot is such a cheater, hope he gets banned by Blizzard.聽

I don't really know anything about Starcraft, but I do have a question regarding the AI's "fairness":

A human player is limited by how fast they can execute commands / click units / etc. How is this regulated when playing against an AI? Can the AI not give commands to all units at once, without a delay that would be needed in a human player to select / click units etc? Or is the number of commands per second that the AI can execute limited somehow?

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On 7/15/2019 at 10:04 AM, maartendc said:

I don't really know anything about Starcraft, but I do have a question regarding the AI's "fairness":

A human player is limited by how fast they can execute commands / click units / etc. How is this regulated when playing against an AI? Can the AI not give commands to all units at once, without a delay that would be needed in a human player to select / click units etc? Or is the number of commands per second that the AI can execute limited somehow?

that is part of how they made it more fair.


I am a christian I will not apoligize.

I play minecraft

The unanimous Declaration of the penguins independance

when in the Course of technological events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all computers are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are security and customizability . 鈥 That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, 鈥 That whenever any Form of Operating System becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Operating System, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their security and customizability. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Operating Systems long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Operating systems, and to provide new Guards for their future security. 鈥 Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of control. The history of microsoft windows is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these pc's. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

Microsoft has refused there Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

Microsoft has forbidden there users to pass patches of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till there Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, they have utterly neglected to attend to them.

Microsoft has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

Microsoft has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with there measures.

Microsoft has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

Microsoft has endeavoured to prevent the compitition to windows; for that purpose obstructing the The furthurment of technology; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of pcs.

Microsoft has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing there Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers..

Microsoft has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

Microsoft has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving there Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

Microsoft has abdicated Government Microsoft, by declaring us out of there Protection and waging War against us.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our human brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement Microsoft. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the penguins of linux, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent Operating System, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the Microsoft Emporer, and that all political connection between them and the Operating system windows, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Operating System, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent Operating Systems may of right do. 鈥 And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

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first wintrading is ok and now botting is also what is happening to online video games

image.png.bd206f31bc5d53dcba24772470d1ef28.png

Kappa


Animes i want to have another season: Noragami, No game no life, clannad, black bullet

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