Possible Scam/Fraud need legal help

[Aelita Sophie]

I'm not sure if I'm placing it in the right forum, if wrong, please feel free to move it.

 

Anyways here is the deal. My boss bought a Dell PowerEdge R320 a little less then a month ago (as an occasion, so used/refurbished product). In the contact he had with the company they told the specs in general was 2TB Worth of SAS disks (4x 500GB), 64GB DDR4 and a E5-1410 v4. As he doesn't know much more then the basics (and for example the difference between a E3, E5 and E7) It seemed fine to him. I only got to work for him about a week later, so I couldnt advice him before hand.

Anyways, most of you would know that a E5-1410 v4 Doesn't exist. Fair enough might be a typo from the salesman. Looking at the Order PDF, it clearly states E5-1410 v2. Benefit of the doubt might be a typo.

On further inspection though, it's a E5-1410 0. Or V1 however you want to call it. Going through the service tag of the server (Thank you dell) it clearly states a "normal" E5-1410. As shown here: http://www.dell.com/support/home/us/en/19/product-support/servicetag/h9mj9x1/configuration

 

Obviously we are not talking about a "honest-mistake" anymore. As we contacted the salesman and he now says that my boss ordered a normal E5-1410 and shows (edited) chat logs. We have live evidence (whatsapp chatlogs, downloaded PDFs and Saved emails on Gmail) of that he was talking about a E5-1410 V4 (which doesn't exist, we already stated that)

 

Point clear is that we will never buy there again, but we want to refund the server, as it doesn't suit our needs and isn't the system as advertised. This is the point where they point out that in their service agreement it states that every product should be checked by the buyer within 72h after it has been received, for any shortcomings. 

I am knowledgeable about the consumer rights in our country, a service agreement such as this for consumer would be against the law and not valid.

 

But I am wondering about business sales. We are talking about The Netherlands, and its a sale between business to business.

 

Can anyone shine some light on this?

[AshleyAshes]

...It's a business... Consult the businesses lawyers...

[Aelita Sophie]

Just now, AshleyAshes said:

...It's a business... Consult the businesses lawyers...

Well, our business is a start up, there isn't a budget for that

[AshleyAshes]

Just now, Aelita Sophie said:

Well, our business is a start up, there isn't a budget for that

Then I'd consult the means you used to pay.  If it was with a credit card or something there are likely to be anti-fraud protections from the credit card company.

On the other hand if you used something like a wire transfer or something... Well... Hire a lawyer or eat the loss.

[Aelita Sophie]

1 minute ago, AshleyAshes said:

Then I'd consult the means you used to pay.  If it was with a credit card or something there are likely to be anti-fraud protections from the credit card company.

On the other hand if you used something like a wire transfer or something... Well... Hire a lawyer or eat the loss.

Well, as far I am aware it has been payed with iDeal (a e-check equivalent if im not mistaken). They do have anti-fraud protections, but you need to start a procedure with the business first as in "Try to solve it on your own for the first few months". Because they believe that most of the times, people and business are well capeable to solve it on a reasonable level on their own. I'm only trying to get some advice or pointers of the law of people who happen to know a thing or 2.

[Robert Morgan]

In that case, I'd document that you've tried to resolve it, but be mindful of the iDeal time limits. In fact, inform them of this situation to ensure that they're aware so that when you do file a claim through them, everything is already all set to go. Make sure there's a nice, solid paper trail. This sounds like a solid case of fraud. I'm no lawyer, but I do have some legal training, or did back int he day. We might call this fraud in the inducement, in that the false specs induced you to part with your money, although the terminology will vary by country. 

 

In the states, we have local small claims courts where you can sue for up to $5000 (varies by jurisdiction, but that's usually about right). You represent yourself in court, no professional lawyers allowed, a judge hears your case and rules. They're usually quick, fairly easy cases. Does the Netherlands have anything like that? That might be an idea. 

[aisle9]

12 hours ago, Aelita Sophie said:

Well, as far I am aware it has been payed with iDeal (a e-check equivalent if im not mistaken). They do have anti-fraud protections, but you need to start a procedure with the business first as in "Try to solve it on your own for the first few months". Because they believe that most of the times, people and business are well capeable to solve it on a reasonable level on their own. I'm only trying to get some advice or pointers of the law of people who happen to know a thing or 2.

Without knowing the laws there, in the US I would dispute the charge and submit the original chat logs (and any other documentation), along with the edited chat logs provided by the salesman and a step-by-step written account of what happened, starting from the very beginning. Make sure you point out several times that you purchased X, the vendor shipped you Y and misrepresented it as X, and when you brought it to their attention, their representative altered documentation.

 

In the United States, this is considered fraud, and you could take the vendor to court either for full reimbursement (potentially plus punitive damages), or reimbursement for the difference in price between the two server builds. I would also contact the salesman's superiors immediately. Don't show them what you have, because that would only enable them to prepare a defense, but do emphasize how your boss agreed to purchase one thing, was sold another in hopes that he wouldn't notice, then the salesman altered logs to make it appear that nothing untowards had happened. Sometimes that claim of misconduct, along with you mentioning that you have proof of the bait-and-switch but are withholding it should it becoming necessary in future proceedings (don't elaborate beyond that) is enough to get them to pick their server up and replace/refund it.

 

In any event, stop using the server and don't spend another penny on it until this is resolved. The last thing you want is them saying that you damaged the server or tampered with it yourself.

[Aelita Sophie]

11 hours ago, Robert Morgan said:

In that case, I'd document that you've tried to resolve it, but be mindful of the iDeal time limits. In fact, inform them of this situation to ensure that they're aware so that when you do file a claim through them, everything is already all set to go. Make sure there's a nice, solid paper trail. This sounds like a solid case of fraud. I'm no lawyer, but I do have some legal training, or did back int he day. We might call this fraud in the inducement, in that the false specs induced you to part with your money, although the terminology will vary by country. 

 

In the states, we have local small claims courts where you can sue for up to $5000 (varies by jurisdiction, but that's usually about right). You represent yourself in court, no professional lawyers allowed, a judge hears your case and rules. They're usually quick, fairly easy cases. Does the Netherlands have anything like that? That might be an idea. 

 

11 hours ago, aisle9 said:

Without knowing the laws there, in the US I would dispute the charge and submit the original chat logs (and any other documentation), along with the edited chat logs provided by the salesman and a step-by-step written account of what happened, starting from the very beginning. Make sure you point out several times that you purchased X, the vendor shipped you Y and misrepresented it as X, and when you brought it to their attention, their representative altered documentation.

 

In the United States, this is considered fraud, and you could take the vendor to court either for full reimbursement (potentially plus punitive damages), or reimbursement for the difference in price between the two server builds. I would also contact the salesman's superiors immediately. Don't show them what you have, because that would only enable them to prepare a defense, but do emphasize how your boss agreed to purchase one thing, was sold another in hopes that he wouldn't notice, then the salesman altered logs to make it appear that nothing untowards had happened. Sometimes that claim of misconduct, along with you mentioning that you have proof of the bait-and-switch but are withholding it should it becoming necessary in future proceedings (don't elaborate beyond that) is enough to get them to pick their server up and replace/refund it.

 

In any event, stop using the server and don't spend another penny on it until this is resolved. The last thing you want is them saying that you damaged the server or tampered with it yourself.

Thank you for your advices. As said, I made sure iDeal was aware of the situation, leaving the paper trail as said. They immediately responded that this is quite the "clear case". Though they encouraged me to try to solve it with the vendor first, as that is in most of the times the easiest way to deal with it.

 

I also asked a close friend who is currently studying business applied laws and regulations, and he said it would clearly fall under fraud with the noum "unfair sale". Because it can be doubted that it is a honest mistake from their end, but never the less we are totally in our right to cancel the order and demand a refund. (Excluding shipping and transaction costs, as those are not covered by law).

 

To cover us up, I used the conveniently Dell Diagnostic Live CD to print out a complete diagnostic of the system (Showing the actual specifications and that it is running in a 100% good condition). I wrote a direct but fairly kind dispute, in which I pointed out our right and I even gave a viable solution; A full refund excluding the shipping and transaction costs. 

 

Bit shocked they immediately agreed and we were able to deliver the server back with a full refund. So case closed ^^

 

Thanks again for your guys great advice! Helped a lot!