what psu is suitable for a vega 56+r5 1600

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, dave_k said:

Haha. It does matter much more than you think

All VRMs found on B350 and few X370s overheat- 80-100°C on Heatsink (that means 120+ °C inside the mosfet) when powering Ryzen 7 at 1.4V which means 100A - Total 140W power consumptiom. The VRMs are junk and most manafacturers instead of heatsinks add only pure blocks of aluminium.

If you want, i can post thermal imaging and graphs to prove it.

@jdwii post the video from chew (B350)

 

Around 26min in. 

 

100+C on the VRM will NOT last

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

And?
Does it really matter for Ryzen?! 

The best you can get out of it is 4.1GHz, if you're lucky 4.2GHz. That's totally irrelevant.

 

What's much more important is memory clock.

And a Board that allows for high memory clock and is optimized for this.

The talk about VRM is just wayne...

You won't put 200W through the CPU...

Actually what is totally irreverent is rating clock speed to thermals here instead you need to be thinking of 8 TRUE full cores running on a 4+2 phase motherboard we are talking about two times as many cores as the 7700K on the same type of 4+2 phase board. 

 

Sure at stock settings and with Amd's highly efficient CPU with SenseMI keeping the CPU within its rated spec's its fine but once you set manual voltage and crank up the frequency ALL those power saving features are disabled.

 

Unless Intel locks out overclocking once again on budget boards i expect to see the the same thing happen when coffee-lake comes out. People will be buying 80$ boards with 4+2 phase at best and crappy heat-sinks and expecting to hit 4.6ghz on all 6 cores.  

[Stefan Payne]

54 minutes ago, jdwii said:

Actually what is totally irreverent is rating clock speed to thermals here instead you need to be thinking of 8 TRUE full cores running on a 4+2 phase motherboard we are talking about two times as many cores as the 7700K on the same type of 4+2 phase board. 

No, you need to think about what it is worth and what do you get. 

What do you get for the increased voltage and clock rate and if it is worth it or not. THAT's what you have to think about.

 

And with an AMD Ryzen you don't get much at all!!

We are still talking about 200MHz from the max. Boost Voltage and for that you need to increase the max. Voltage...

 

 

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Sure at stock settings and with Amd's highly efficient CPU with SenseMI keeping the CPU within its rated spec's its fine but once you set manual voltage and crank up the frequency ALL those power saving features are disabled.

Yes and for that it's enough.

And you have to think about performance vs. Effort/Power Consumption.

And in this case Ryzen is just awful/bad and not really worth talking about because out of the box it is clocked at the upper end of the possible, you can't get much more out of the CPUs at the moment. And they are already selected by AMD - like in the olden days where you really paid for the clockspeed.

 

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Unless Intel locks out overclocking once again on budget boards i expect to see the the same thing happen when coffee-lake comes out. People will be buying 80$ boards with 4+2 phase at best and crappy heat-sinks and expecting to hit 4.6ghz on all 6 cores.  

1. Why mention Intel when talking about Ryzen?!
2. You know the past of Intel? When didn't they do something bad to not sacrifice their sales?
Do I have to mention i430TX, i815, i915/925 (multi CPU locked thus a new revision was needed for Pentium D), all those i94x things (especially i940GML wich only support single Core CPUs), in the last copule of months, totally locking Xeons for Overclocking, locking Xeons from 'consumer' Chipsets. As well as Heatsink Compound for their HEDT, Skylake-X.

 

To expect that Intel might not rip you off and do something 'good' is just bonkers...

They never did that...

[Guest]

Missed my point and dave_K point completely. We are discussing VRM and the load they can take i already heard reports and read reviews where boards are breaking over users who by B350 4+2 phase board and setting their 8 core to 1.4V 3.9-4.0. 

 

I bring up intel as if they don't lock out overclocking on their midrange boards i can see users getting the 6 core and pushing it to much for the budget VRM. 

 

Also currently running at 1.25V with the stock wraith fan over my VRM and a Kraken X61. My VRM will stay at 73C max load after 4 hours of prime95 blend without a fan on at STOCK i saw 68C. If i set 1.25V and 3.7Ghz without a fan over my VRM it will keep going to 100C or so what happens if i set 1.4V i won't tell you unless you gave me money to replace my board and CPU. 

 

CHEW who has many parts won't even push his B350 that hard and he has the ASUS B350-Plus. He calls it a miracle that his board even made it for 30min. 

 

Also i never said Ryzen was worth overclocking or not i don't think its worth it for him to buy a 200$ board if he isn't overclocking or if he doesn't need the extra feature X370 offers. 

 

 

 

 

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, jdwii said:

Missed my point and dave_K point completely.

No, I do not.

You are missing the point and are promoting sledgehammer overclocking that does not make any sense.

What are you talking about? +100W more power consumption for 200MHz more??

 

1 hour ago, jdwii said:

We are discussing VRM and the load they can take i already heard reports and read reviews where boards are breaking over users who by B350 4+2 phase board and setting their 8 core to 1.4V 3.9-4.0. 

Yes, and?
The number of phases is irrelevant because the design of the VRM matters more, a 4 phase VRM can be better than an 8phase - depending on the parts used.

The only advantage of the 8phase is that the heat is spread over a larger area. 

 

But that doesn't really matter for Ryzen...

1 hour ago, jdwii said:

Also i never said Ryzen was worth overclocking or not i don't think its worth it for him to buy a 200$ board if he isn't overclocking or if he doesn't need the extra feature X370 offers. 

Because you didn't spend much time researching Ryzen and the performance and that stuff??

The 200€ Board makes sense because of more layer, better signal quality on the memory bus and thus the max memory clock of a good (6Layer) X370 Board is higher than on a cheapish one with only 4 Layer. And _THAT_ is what counts!
Due to the architecture, Ryzen benefits extremely (compared to other CPUs on the market) from higher memory clocks, for example because the communication between the CCX can be faster because that runs at memory clock (not sure about L3, it's also possible that it runs at memory frequency and that's the reason why RYZEN benefits so much from higher memory clock).

 

Buttom Line:
The VRM on a Ryzen is rather irrelevant because we are talking about 100-200MHz in most cases. Not worth to think about it.

However you still want one of the more expansiv boards because you want a 6 Layer board with as good signal quality on the memory bus as possible, for higher Memory Clocks. 

THAT is what can give RYZEN way more performance if you invest some time.

Core Overclocking is a waste of time and power consumption, memory optimisation is not.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

No, I do not.

You are missing the point and are promoting sledgehammer overclocking that does not make any sense.

What are you talking about? +100W more power consumption for 200MHz more??

 

Yes, and?
The number of phases is irrelevant because the design of the VRM matters more, a 4 phase VRM can be better than an 8phase - depending on the parts used.

The only advantage of the 8phase is that the heat is spread over a larger area. 

 

But that doesn't really matter for Ryzen...

Because you didn't spend much time researching Ryzen and the performance and that stuff??

The 200€ Board makes sense because of more layer, better signal quality on the memory bus and thus the max memory clock of a good (6Layer) X370 Board is higher than on a cheapish one with only 4 Layer. And _THAT_ is what counts!
Due to the architecture, Ryzen benefits extremely (compared to other CPUs on the market) from higher memory clocks, for example because the communication between the CCX can be faster because that runs at memory clock (not sure about L3, it's also possible that it runs at memory frequency and that's the reason why RYZEN benefits so much from higher memory clock).

 

Buttom Line:
The VRM on a Ryzen is rather irrelevant because we are talking about 100-200MHz in most cases. Not worth to think about it.

However you still want one of the more expansiv boards because you want a 6 Layer board with as good signal quality on the memory bus as possible, for higher Memory Clocks. 

THAT is what can give RYZEN way more performance if you invest some time.

Core Overclocking is a waste of time and power consumption, memory optimisation is not.

OH 100-200mhz on ryzen makes a BIG difference in terms of voltage needed. For example 1.25V and 3.7Ghz on R7 is common but to get to 3.9ghz one has to use 1.375V or more. You simply do not understand how much more voltage one needs to get to achieve that 100-200mhz we are talking about a massive voltage increase for a measly 100-200mhz. 

 

 

 

Quote

4 phase VRM can be better than an 8phase

 

Not unless the manufacture is trying to prove a point as any modern board will at least have crappy NIKO VRM and even NIKO true 8 phase is still better then a 4 phase Asus B350-plus. 

 

But try and find me a AM4 board that is 4+2 phase that is better then a 6 or 8 phase X370 board. 

Quote

more layer, better signal quality on the memory bus and thus the max memory clock

This is actually the funniest part of this reply as CHEW himself has said that B350 has actually been easier when it comes to achieving higher memory clocks haha . Also high memory speeds is more dependent on the CPU's IMC then the chipset lol. 

 

Edit but continue and give bad advise its not like you have to replace the OP's parts right. Well i will not recommend users bad advise where in 2 years their board breaks and takes their CPU with it do to an OC.  

[Stefan Payne]

10 hours ago, jdwii said:

OH 100-200mhz on ryzen makes a BIG difference in terms of voltage needed. For example 1.25V and 3.7Ghz on R7 is common but to get to 3.9ghz one has to use 1.375V or more. You simply do not understand how much more voltage one needs to get to achieve that 100-200mhz we are talking about a massive voltage increase for a measly 100-200mhz. 

Who are you kidding right now?!
That's what I've been saying the whole time!

For those 200MHz you need, you need more voltage thus way higher Power consumption than stock.

And what's the difference in power Consumption between 3.7GHz and 3.9GHz?? 50W?? 100W?? 200W??

With just a bit of more voltage the power consumption explodes...

Sadly there isn't a modern article but Xbitlabs had one from ~10 Years ago and they were able to double the power consumption of the CPU with overclocking...

And that one was either an i7-860 or an i7-960 or something like that....

 

I don't understand what you want right now. Read my postings!
I've always said that Ryzen OC is not worth it because it's already clocked at the upper end and not much room left. For any raise in clock, you need to increase the voltage dramatically and that is not worth it.

 

Quote

This is actually the funniest part of this reply as CHEW himself has said that B350 has actually been easier when it comes to achieving higher memory clocks

Yes, and?!

Sometimes manufacturers use the same (more expansive) PCB for cheaper chipsets, they don't redesign the whole CPU/Memory Area for those.

Sometimes they do not and redesign it and use better materials or more layers for the more expansive boards wich are optimized for better performance/higher clockspeeds...

 

But that also proves the VRM discussion here is bullshit.

Because Ryzen OC is just not worth it.

You are talking about a mere 5% increase in clockspeed that does what in performance? 1-2,5%???

I'm talking about optimizing the memory performance and increasing the CCX-CCX communication wich can give between nothing and up to 20% more performance.

What do you think is more worth? 

Giving more voltage on the CPU so you can get it to clock 200MHz faster - if you are lucky or optimizing the Memory Thingy??

 

Quote

 Also high memory speeds is more dependent on the CPU's IMC then the chipset 

What are you trying here?!
 

First to integrate the Memory controller into the CPU was AMD. And that was 14 Years ago in 2003. 

And if you've lived in that area you know that the statement above isn't entirely true and it neither depends on the CPU IMC nor the Chipset, the most influence about max. Clockspeed had the Board. And there were some really awful designs where it was impossible to use 200MHz memory clock with 2 Sticks.

Or later @ Socket 939 200MHz with 4 Sticks.

Most Boards that are able to archieve that are one of the later ones - with redesigned CPU/Memory Areas - and with PCie Express chipsets.

 

So to a point it depends on the Chipset because with some you want to save a bit of money, with other "Chipsets" you do not need to because you sell it for 200 bucks and not 50.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

Who are you kidding right now?!
That's what I've been saying the whole time!

For those 200MHz you need, you need more voltage thus way higher Power consumption than stock.

And what's the difference in power Consumption between 3.7GHz and 3.9GHz?? 50W?? 100W?? 200W??

With just a bit of more voltage the power consumption explodes...

Sadly there isn't a modern article but Xbitlabs had one from ~10 Years ago and they were able to double the power consumption of the CPU with overclocking...

And that one was either an i7-860 or an i7-960 or something like that....

 

I don't understand what you want right now. Read my postings!
I've always said that Ryzen OC is not worth it because it's already clocked at the upper end and not much room left. For any raise in clock, you need to increase the voltage dramatically and that is not worth it.

 

Yes, and?!

Sometimes manufacturers use the same (more expansive) PCB for cheaper chipsets, they don't redesign the whole CPU/Memory Area for those.

But that also proves the VRM discussion here is bullshit.

Because Ryzen OC is just not worth it.

 

What are you trying here?!
 

First to integrate the Memory controller into the CPU was AMD. And that was 14 Years ago in 2003. 

And if you've lived in that area you know that the statement above isn't entirely true and it neither depends on the CPU IMC nor the Chipset, the most influence about max. Clockspeed had the Board. And there were some really awful designs where it was impossible to use 200MHz memory clock with 2 Sticks.

Or later @ Socket 939 200MHz with 4 Sticks.

Most Boards that are able to archieve that are one of the later ones - with redesigned CPU/Memory Areas - and with PCie Express chipsets.

 

So to a point it depends on the Chipset because with some you want to save a bit of money, with other "Chipsets" you do not need to because you sell it for 200 bucks and not 50.

Clearly some misunderstanding has happen on the 200mhz part i thought you were implying that very little difference in voltage was needed to get 3.9 vs 3.7, sorry on that part

 

 

 

Quote

But that also proves the VRM discussion here is bullshit.

Because Ryzen OC is just not worth it.

 

No its very relevant if the user doesn't want to run his chip at 3.2ghz all core turbo and wants 3.9-4.0 that's in increase of 20% i don't call that not worth it on the lower clocked ryzen's and single core turbo and XFR barely ever kick in. 

 

Quote

First to integrate the Memory controller into the CPU was AMD. And that was 14 Years ago in 2003. 

That has nothing to do with anything at all regarding this conversation lol i mean did i imply that they didn't? Point is the IMC in ryzen is what is limiting higher memory speeds not the ram not the board this has been repeated by corsair+G-skill hell you can even read it on newegg reviews where the manufacture reply's back saying it. Even Amd themselves have stated the X series CPU's often can run higher memory speeds or hit 3200 more often. 

 

 

Quote

So to a point it depends on the Chipset because with some you want to save a bit of money, with other "Chipsets" you do not need to because you sell it for 200 bucks and not 50.

Not about saving money and if you read the posts from dave_K and me you would see that we are not even recommending B350 boards for overclocking 8 core chips and instead recommend spending more money if one wants to overclock? 

 

Also i was saying that chew had better luck getting higher memory speeds on his ASUS B350-Plus then even on the amazing Asrock Taichi and top of the line ASUS which is the board i love on AM4. 

 

Anyways we seem to agree on a decent amount of stuff anyways i just think some misunderstanding happen.