Have Microsoft doomed the Surface line and Windows touch?

[Greggers]

I have a SP3 and although I like it I think Microsoft have really doomed the product for so many reasons. Windows 10 being the first, no matter what they say about keeping touch support, non tech folk (the ones with all the money) will think they're ditching touch features and probably buy the alternatives like iPads, that's if the surface even comes into their decision in the first place as MS have terrible marketing. Now I come onto one inherrent flaw with their product, they market it as a laptop replacement which gives them the excuse here but they also sell a dock which to me sounds like they're aiming at desktop replacement as well, so why not ditch the USB 2 ports in the dock and add a small GPU? Doesn't have to be a power house but just something to get med-high end games to run. In my desktop I still use a GTX 470 and that suits my needs perfectly, I find it hard to believe MS couldn't fit a GPU of the same series into their dock so we can slot it in and game after a busy day. Finally, the pen. Why didn't they just call it the one note pen? If you're not a designer you'll have no use for this and if you are a designer you'll probably have a graphics tablet anyway. One note also sucks as it doesn't scale properly so you can write something that fits on the screen on your tablet, boot up the android app and it forces you to scroll all over the place. 

 

[WiiManic]

Finally, the pen. Why didn't they just call it the one note pen? If you're not a designer you'll have no use for this and if you are a designer you'll probably have a graphics tablet anyway. One note also sucks as it doesn't scale properly so you can write something that fits on the screen on your tablet, boot up the android app and it forces you to scroll all over the place. 

 

The pen sucks? I'm not arty in any way, and I use it daily for 3-4 hours, and from the look of other Surface users,  they do aswell.

I use mine daily to handwrite up notes, its been amazing for that so far. I'll write up a lecture or twos worth of notes at the end of the day.

So I wouldn't say its only useful for designers.

 

I'd go as far to say that the Pen and OneNote are what the Surface line was made for.

Its mainly why I think Linus' review is skewed. Not going to use the pen? Probably better off with a cheaper W8 touchscreen device, or an Apple device to type on.

He didn't want/use the pen, so for him, the Surface 3 probably was a bit crap/pointless.

It really feels that this device was made just for OneNote, because it does that amazingly.

 

And I think you are looking at the wrong flaw really. True, they market it as a laptop/tablet replacement, yet sell the type cover seperately. Thats my problem with it. 

MS can't advertise it against 2 devices then sell it without the full kit to properly match up against those devices.

[DarkR3bel]

The dock in it's current state looks a little big for a small GPU, don't you think? They would have to expand it and add a DC power input & add a power brick as an SP3 battery would not be able to power that. And after that it would cost more than $300, instead of the $200 (which is pretty expensive for what it gives you IMO.)

[dizmo]

I don't think you really need to add a GPU to be able to play the kind of games that someone who's likely to buy this as a desktop replacement would play.

I think your view is a little misinformed there.

I have an older HD4000 toting notebook, and I can still run most games that I'd currently like to play. Not at awesome settings, but honestly, it doesn't matter.

Most people don't play games, and if they do, they'd likely be looking to buy a system more in line with a desktop to play them. Not a tablet.

For everyone else, the HD series graphics processor is MORE than capable of what they need and want to do.

[GoodBytes]

I have a SP3 and although I like it I think Microsoft have really doomed the product for so many reasons. Windows 10 being the first, no matter what they say about keeping touch support, non tech folk (the ones with all the money) will think they're ditching touch features and probably buy the alternatives like iPads, that's if the surface even comes into their decision in the first place as MS have terrible marketing.

No. Because Windows 10 has both Start Screen and Start menu, it will adapt (late preview build) based on your device. It will be a featured showcased. It is a big Windows 10 feature, as the process will be done automatically.

 

Now I come onto one inherrent flaw with their product, they market it as a laptop replacement which gives them the excuse here but they also sell a dock which to me sounds like they're aiming at desktop replacement as well, so why not ditch the USB 2 ports in the dock and add a small GPU?

Sadly Thunderbolt technology is VERY expensive. External GPUs via thunderbolt, you are looking at 1000$ for something decent, JUST for the enclosure. You need to get your own power supply and GPU. Also Thunderbolt, at the moment of the Surface Pro 3 release, is like PCI-E 4, if I recall correctly. So despite the high price, you'll have horrible performance.

Also, most people don't need or care, about a dedicated GPU, and are fine with Intel graphics solution. Handles Windows fine, web surfing, DVD and 1080p playback fine.

Also, every business class laptop have a dock. It is a requirement if you want your system to sale to businesses. The idea is that you get to use a desktop setup, on your desk, but you can just pull the system out and be mobile, and work anywhere. You cant' do this with a desktop, and if you go with 2 systems... well it's 2 system, and then you need to make sure your files are in sync and didn't forget anything, especially if you are living for a business trip, and plan to see a client. Not too professional going "Darn, The picture/graph/report I wanted to show you is at the office. I forgot to transfer it, or got corrupted in the transfer". It removes a big complication.

 

Finally, the pen. Why didn't they just call it the one note pen? If you're not a designer you'll have no use for this and if you are a designer you'll probably have a graphics tablet anyway. One note also sucks as it doesn't scale properly so you can write something that fits on the screen on your tablet, boot up the android app and it forces you to scroll all over the place.

Incorrect. First of all, The Surface Pro line sold so well for artists that Adobe jump in reworking it's GUI framework system it uses for all it's software to be high-DPI aware. They also implement Windows Ink API, and no longer tied to Wacoms pen with the WinTab drivers specifically. Also, calling it "OneNote pen", suggest that the pen works ONLY if you have OneNote, and will not work anywhere else, while this is completely not true.

The big selling point to designers, is that the Surface Pro allows you write/draw on the screen with high accuracy compared to similar products (convertible tablets), where you won't fight with the pen, and is massively cheaper than the Wacom Cintiq, where that thing is just a monitor, big heavy bulky monitor. You can't transport that. Drawing tablets are better than the Surface Pro pen system, as it is a dedicated system, and no need to be power efficient so it is more accurate, more responsive, and faster tracking, but you can't write on the screen, and you can't take it with you. Well you CAN, but it's not a realistic setup. You cant' stand up and draw, wile you can with the Surface Pro.

And OneNote does NOT suck. It is the best note taking software you can get. I use it on my Surface Pro 2 DAILY for school. It's awesome. I tried others, nothing comes close to it. Is it perfect? no. But the best you can get. And I have no scaling issue that you say. I don't know what version you use, but that is not true.

[Greggers]

OneNote is good, yes but my problem is when using it on another platform. Like I write some notes using the pen on my SP3, go onto my Nexus 5 to read them and it doesn't scale the notes to fit the screen and instead forces me to scroll around. That's hardly the experience I want when Google Keep does the job minus the pen support.

 

Again with the artist thing, I said it was good for artists so I'm hardly wrong but I just don't see maybe artists making enough money to go out and throw between £800 - £1900 on a tablet when they can just buy a graphics tablet for £99. I never said it wouldn't work anywhere else, I said it sucks everywhere else because nobody supports it besides maybe artistic programs and OneNote. No support for Evernote, keep, ect. I just hoped it would do more down the line. Also the argument that you can't just walk around drawing on a graphics tablet, who does that anyway? I don't see many people walking around with a tablet doing their artsy stuff, actually I've never seen another SP3 in the wild which is probably the issue. 

 

I totally believe they could fit a mobile gpu in that dock, I've only played two games on the SP3 so far, both on the source engine L4D2 and GMOD both in stock configs with no super hd mods and it starts to lag before I get anywhere near the screen resolution of the SP3. I get to about 1080p and it drops big time. I just feel a GPU in the dock would be that killer feature that kicked the surface into the mainstream and make it a real take it anywhere device.

[GoodBytes]

OneNote is good, yes but my problem is when using it on another platform. Like I write some notes using the pen on my SP3, go onto my Nexus 5 to read them and it doesn't scale the notes to fit the screen and instead forces me to scroll around. That's hardly the experience I want when Google Keep does the job minus the pen support.

OneNote has infinite pages in any direction, unless specified. It doesn't shrink pages to not break your graphics, diagram, layout and such. It's not notepad, where it's just text. The design approach from OneNote is best, as you see your noted as they are.

Again with the artist thing, I said it was good for artists so I'm hardly wrong but I just don't see maybe artists making enough money to go out and throw between £800 - £1900 on a tablet when they can just buy a graphics tablet for £99.

I don't know what artist you look at, but professionals a graphics artists, those with talent and skills, tend to make money, same for photographers/editors. They work in magazines, companies that makes ads, and so on. And they have the funds to buy Every new Mac Pro's without a problem, same for Wacom expensive tablets.

You have Wacom Cintiq screen, professional grade monitor that cost thousands of dollars for 24inch 1080p, and even, the Surface Pro had such an impact that Wacom went in with their own Surface Pro like product: Wacom Cintiq companion.

I never said it wouldn't work anywhere else, I said it sucks everywhere else because nobody supports it besides maybe artistic programs and OneNote. No support for Evernote, keep, ect.

- Fresh Paint

- Full Office suite

- Windows 8 Reader

- Adobe Reader

- Huge selection of artist software

- Windows Snipping tool

- Windows Journal

- Windows itself (XP Tablet edition and up)

Like, I don't know what to say. If the software you are looking at aren't interested in supported Windows Ink APIs, than that is their problem.

But the pen works like a mouse on these applications. Windows does this transition without anything visible.

I just hoped it would do more down the line. Also the argument that you can't just walk around drawing on a graphics tablet, who does that anyway? I don't see many people walking around with a tablet doing their artsy stuff, actually I've never seen another SP3 in the wild which is probably the issue.

Well what can I say. I see them. And there is a market, because all art programs are implement Windows Ink API support, and high-DPI support as well, for Surface Pro line support (and other tablets, but we know Surface Pro is pretty much alone). These are not 2 min features to implement. If they are all doing this big effort, it means something.

I totally believe they could fit a mobile gpu in that dock, I've only played two games on the SP3 so far, both on the source engine L4D2 and GMOD both in stock configs with no super hd mods and it starts to lag before I get anywhere near the screen resolution of the SP3. I get to about 1080p and it drops big time. I just feel a GPU in the dock would be that killer feature that kicked the surface into the mainstream and make it a real take it anywhere device.

Well as discussed, that isn't possible.

However, what is possible on PAPER, is a low-powered Maxwell GPU (5W). The problem is that Nvidia is not really interested in making one for laptops. It goes straight to it's Tegra chip for Android tablets (Tegra K1 using Kepler). Already the Kepler GPU in the Tegra 1 is more powerful than Intel best offering. So image Maxwell, being more power efficient, and deeply optimized, and memory optimized (uses less memory, making the graphics solution cheaper to implement).

If Microsoft does a partner deal with Nvidia, it is possible to have that on the Surface Pro 4, especially if it uses Intel Broadwell GPU which is estimated (from rumors) to consumer 5W less. So you can maintain the same battery life as currently.. and that is if the GPU is pushed to consume 5W.

It's not going to be some super amazing GPU, but faster than Intel best offering even more so, and proper full support for DirectX, OpenGL, OpenCL, DirectComputer, and provide CUDA support.