How many rads and pumps?

[G9x001]

I'm well aware of the principles,I have a 2-1 in Physics,thanks tho.

 

My comment stands,convection.plays no part of a powered cooling system.

 

that is why all cars have the inlet to the radiator at the top and the outlet at the bottom and the cold water from the radiator is taken in from the bottom of the engine and outlet is from the top. or is it just coincidence that all car manufactures do this. have you ever noticed that the reservoir is at the highest point possible and the bleed point is at the highest point of the engine I wonder why o that's right to get rid of the air. 

you must have been asleep in physics class.

 

just because you build a pc doesn't mean you know everything about it.

 

My wife drives a car does that make her a mechanic? 

 

 

[G9x001]

As for your open window...place a fan exhausting out of the room like you have in a case,your comment falls over.

 

what bit of heat rises do you not understand?

 

[skline00]

TNortham112,I have been following this thread and won't get into the "heated" battle of who is right or wrong about convection or conduction. Also realize that I "love" radiator capacity, thus I have a MO RA3 420 mounted in series with a RX 360 rad to my 3930k/EVGA GTX780 Classified. My problem was a CM HAF 932 case that looks big but internally is limited to a 360 rad at the top and a 120 at the rear. Sure you can squeeze more in, but only with serious modding of your case.

 

Your case selection of the Phanteks Ethoo Luxe is interesting and wise. It can handle a 420 rad at the top and a 240 rad in the front without modding. I'm showing my "more rad capacity bias" but I would put a 420 in the top and a 240 in the front and here is why. Some may say it's too much rad "needed" for your combo BUT it gives you the ability to OC both the cpu and gpu and dump a lot of heat in the loop but still have enough rad capacity to keep temps low.

 

Fans haven't been mentioned here. The 140 fans lag behind the 120s for water cooling but more and more are being released with better static pressure improvement.

 

The 420/240 combo gives you growing room if you add the second gpu. Even with one gpu, it allows to run the fans at slower speeds.

 

I laugh when I hear a poster say a 240 rad is fine for a cpu/gpu combo. What they are really saying is "it's fine with high speed fans and mild overclocks".

 

The 4790k is a great chip but it's designed to OC AND throw off heat. The 780 is a great OCer. I have the 780 classified with a EVGA waterblock (I know, the EK is a little better!) and water cooled the Classified is a BEAST at Overclocking but throws heat into the loop,

 

Given your case constraints, maximize your rad space now. The exponential cost of the bigger rad (420 vs 360) isn't that great but it will maximize your cooling capacity.

[MetEishYa]

As for your open window...place a fan exhausting out of the room like you have in a case,your comment falls over.

You mean natural convection, right?

[B NEGATIVE]

Exactly,natural convection is what is being described

and is incorrect.

 

As for 'not knowing anything about pc/watercooling..

 

Well,I'm a rep for watercooling vendor,I test for EK among others...I run the largest WC thread in the world with many knowledgeable contributors...

 

To claim I know nothing is just ad hominem attacks....dumbass.

[B NEGATIVE]

The term is free convection,not natural btw.

[VSG]

A lot of misled people in here misleading others. B Neg is right, free convection isn't really a factor once you have decent air flow in the mix.

[MetEishYa]

The term is free convection,not natural btw.

Most of my Thermodynamics books refer to it as natural convection, so that's the term I've gotten use to . But i agree with you free/natural convection has little effect on most forced systems therefor can be considered negligible. The four main factors that effect heat transfer is air velocity. water velocity, surface area and ambient. temperature. 

[B NEGATIVE]

^^This^^

Free or Natural,im not dwelling on the semantics,the concept is the same.

 

Fanless convection coolers and waterloops exist tho...just its not a consideration for forced cooling systems,the moment you add fans it becomes forced.

As for the crap car analogies....car rads are single pass and HAVE to have ports at each end to work correctly.

 

And as a finisher. The difference between a convection oven and a fan assisted oven? The convection oven has graduated heat zones because of,you guessed it,convection with no air movement. The fan assisted oven does not do this,this type of oven has much more uniform heat distribution because,again...no secret,FAN assistance.

[G9x001]

^^This^^

Free or Natural,im not dwelling on the semantics,the concept is the same.

 

Fanless convection coolers and waterloops exist tho...just its not a consideration for forced cooling systems,the moment you add fans it becomes forced.

As for the crap car analogies....car rads are single pass and HAVE to have ports at each end to work correctly.

 

And as a finisher. The difference between a convection oven and a fan assisted oven? The convection oven has graduated heat zones because of,you guessed it,convection with no air movement. The fan assisted oven does not do this,this type of oven has much more uniform heat distribution because,again...no secret,FAN assistance.

 

If you add a fan in the same direction as natural(free) convection then it assists with its movement. if you add a mechanical convection system such as a fan or pump it has to act against the natural(free) convection movement requiring more energy. what I'm saying is to use the natural(free) convection in the case don't fight it with a fan or pump. use the fan or pump to assist the convection. 

 

Natural Convection is that natural it occurs freely. Forced convection is that forced it requires energy from a mechanical device to over come or disturb the natural convection.  in other words forced convection is less efficient in a power consumption terms then a Natural convection. but a forced convection will dissipate a lot more heat then a natural convection.  So if you want a efficient quiet cool PC use the natural convection path to your advantage don't fight it.   

 

please read this. and pay attention to forced and natural(free) convection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convection#natural_convection

[Lays]

A lot of misled people in here misleading others. B Neg is right, free convection isn't really a factor once you have decent air flow in the mix.

 

I'm well aware of the principles,I have a 2-1 in Physics,thanks tho.

 

My comment stands,convection.plays no part of a powered cooling system.

 

 

Have been saying this for a zillion years now, bout time I find people that agree.

[G9x001]

^^This^^

Free or Natural,im not dwelling on the semantics,the concept is the same.

 

Fanless convection coolers and waterloops exist tho...just its not a consideration for forced cooling systems,the moment you add fans it becomes forced.

As for the crap car analogies....car rads are single pass and HAVE to have ports at each end to work correctly.

 

And as a finisher. The difference between a convection oven and a fan assisted oven? The convection oven has graduated heat zones because of,you guessed it,convection with no air movement. The fan assisted oven does not do this,this type of oven has much more uniform heat distribution because,again...no secret,FAN assistance.

 

The difference between a fan forced oven and a convection oven is that they are the same thing I think what you mean to say is a conventional oven and a Fan or convection oven.

the fan or forced convection disturbs the natural convection resulting in a more even heat through the oven.

 

[G9x001]

Exactly,natural convection is what is being described

and is incorrect.

 

As for 'not knowing anything about pc/watercooling..

 

Well,I'm a rep for watercooling vendor,I test for EK among others...I run the largest WC thread in the world with many knowledgeable contributors...

 

To claim I know nothing is just ad hominem attacks....dumbass.

 

I didn't say you know nothing I said you must have been asleep in physics class.  I'm sure you know all the stock codes for EK water blocks and as for your threads if I ever want to build the most inefficient water cooling and air cooling system possible I will be sure to look at them.

 

My wife test drove a car. does that mean she is a mechanical engineer or has any concept on how the car transfers its power from the fuel to torque that moves the car. 

 

As for the dumbass I will except that because I can't read and write properly.  

[B NEGATIVE]

You talk of efficiency yet advocate feeding rads with used air from another?

You are obviously trollbait and not worth even trying to illuminate,persist in your error and enjoy the ignorance.

 

I can see your stay here being short.

[G9x001]

You talk of efficiency yet advocate feeding rads with used air from another?

You are obviously trollbait and not worth even trying to illuminate,persist in your error and enjoy the ignorance.

 

I can see your stay here being short.

 

Is this post directed at me.

Where have I said that feeding rads with used air from another is a good idea or have even suggested such a thing?

If it where my case I wouldn't even put a rad at the top. but where else is he going to put it. In my setup my rad is mounted outside my case so there is no heat transfer what so ever to the other components inside my case.

 

your ignorance is boarding on insanity.

 

I would hate to think of how many people you have miss guided in these forums.

 

I come to these forums with the knowledge and facts that I have gain over my life and feel good about passing that knowledge onto someone that might want to use it someday. as for your comments I would like you to provide some facts through links from a reputable source to prove me wrong and when you do I will apologize profusely.

[G9x001]

Most of my Thermodynamics books refer to it as natural convection, so that's the term I've gotten use to . But i agree with you free/natural convection has little effect on most forced systems therefor can be considered negligible. The four main factors that effect heat transfer is air velocity. water velocity, surface area and ambient. temperature. 

 

This is the most knowledgeable post I have seen in this forum. And I agree with the whole statement  But before the Natural (free) convection can be considered negligible the forced convection must first overcome the force or movement of the natural convection. therefor the transfer of heat would require less Forced convection energy to transfer the heat if the forced convection worked with not against the natural convection. making the system more efficient this is what I'm trying to say.

 

[MetEishYa]

This is the most knowledgeable post I have seen in this forum. And I agree with the whole statement  But before the Natural (free) convection can be considered negligible the forced convection must first overcome the force or movement of the natural convection. therefor the transfer of heat would require less Forced convection energy to transfer the heat if the forced convection worked with not against the natural convection. making the system more efficient this is what I'm trying to say.

 

Natural convection is normally only considered the forced convention part is extremely low velocity, this will normally does not occur on any water loop since the fan speed is normally fast (>200 rpm). Yes, what you say is true natural convection can hurt or help forced convection depending on direction of buoyancy-induced (eg. hot air raises) , but effect is still relatively small. Best results mount a rad at the top of your case as an exhaust since it will help cooling of rad and components.  

[G9x001]

Natural convection is normally only considered the forced convention part is extremely low velocity, this will normally does not occur on any water loop since the fan speed is normally fast (>200 rpm). Yes, what you say is true natural convection can hurt or help forced convection depending on direction of buoyancy-induced (eg. hot air raises) , but effect is still relatively small. Best results mount a rad at the top of your case as an exhaust since it will help cooling of rad and components.  the most Knowledgeable

 

The two most knowledgeable posts in this forum.

and what you have to keep in mind is that in your case even if you have a water cooling loop you still have a air cooled case.

This is what I was saying all along the whole idea of a water cooling loop is to help transfer the heat away from the components as fast as possible in the most efficient way possible and in the quietest way possible so you can have the highest overclock possible. and not have to listen to a number of fans all fighting each others forced convection. 

 

if you use the natural convection in a water loop you may only need 1 pump go against it you may need two pumps.

use natural convection in a case you may only need 1or 2 fans go against it you may need 3 or 4.   

 

like I said at the start of this post

Heat transfers in 3 ways

Convection

Conduction

Radiation

keep this in mind when placing rads, fans, pumps and res into your case.