Question about ps5/TV compatibility.

[Cheersmate]

Hello everyone i own a samsung m7 its a 60 hz 4k smart monitor without VRR or FreeSync and i am planning on buying a ps5 pro however i have one question that i need answered. Some games apparently have a 40fps quality mode with vsync on PS5 and i was wondering if i would experience screen tearing on a screen without VRR while playing these games ? Or does it only happen on fps above the HZ rating ?

[porina]

I've never tried it, but it is my understanding that 40 fps mode is achieved by running 120 Hz and updating 1/3 refresh. If so, a 60 Hz display can't support that. I don't know what happens if you try.

[Ha-Satan]

I don't think that 40 fps modes will even be available to you, because AFAIK to be selectable, they typically require the system to be set to 120Hz output, which just won't be an option since your TV is 60Hz.

[Cheersmate]

15 minutes ago, Ha-Satan said:

I don't think that 40 fps modes will even be available to you, because AFAIK to be selectable, they typically require the system to be set to 120Hz output, which just won't be an option since your TV is 60Hz.

So i would play with 30 fps then ? Also does VRR smooth only higher fps levels or does it smooth out like 42-48 fps as well ?

[Ha-Satan]

4 minutes ago, Cheersmate said:

So i would play with 30 fps then ?

Yeah, most games will probably offer a mode targeting 30 and a mode targeting 60. I say "most" because there are always a few that do weird things like offering totally unlocked frame rates (with screen tearing of course) or possibly even offering a 40 or 45 fps cap despite your TV only being 60Hz (but you wouldn't want to do that because 40 or 45 fps with Vsync on a 60Hz screen will feel awful).

[Cheersmate]

4 minutes ago, Ha-Satan said:

Yeah, most games will probably offer a mode targeting 30 and a mode targeting 60. I say "most" because there are always a few that do weird things like offering totally unlocked frame rates (with screen tearing of course) or possibly even offering a 40 or 45 fps cap despite your TV only being 60Hz (but you wouldn't want to do that because 40 or 45 fps with Vsync on a 60Hz screen will feel awful).

Okay thank you. Do you think i will have problems due to the lack of VRR ? M7 has motion smoothing so 30 fps wont be an issue but i am curios about how obvious the fps drops will be

[porina]

14 minutes ago, Cheersmate said:

Also does VRR smooth only higher fps levels or does it smooth out like 42-48 fps as well ?

PS5 only supports VRR in the range of 48-120 fps. It doesn't natively support it below that range. Some games can fake it to go below that, but it depends on devs implementing it themselves. Basically duplicating frames to push it back into range.

 

2 minutes ago, Cheersmate said:

Okay thank you. Do you think i will have problems due to the lack of VRR ? M7 has motion smoothing so 30 fps wont be an issue but i am curios about how obvious the fps drops will be

TV provided motion smoothing sounds like a very bad idea for gaming. Try it for yourself. Maybe it works for you, maybe it doesn't. Where available, let the games do their thing in 30/60 modes.

[Ha-Satan]

3 minutes ago, Cheersmate said:

Okay thank you. Do you think i will have problems due to the lack of VRR ? M7 has motion smoothing so 30 fps wont be an issue but i am curios about how obvious the fps drops will be

That's a difficult question to answer because it's very subjective. 

 

First, unless I'm mistaken, the VRR range on the PS5 is only 48-120Hz, so there is no VRR available in 30 fps mode. That said, this is usually OK since the vast majority of games on PS5 seem to have very consistent performance in their 30 fps modes.

 

In 60 fps mode, where the PS5 doesn't always stick to the 60 fps target all that well, it might make more of a difference. I also play on a 60Hz non-VRR TV, and typically I don't notice drops from the 60 fps line if they are brief and only a few frames. Like, if I'm at a solid 60 fps and suddenly it drops to 55 fps for a quarter of a second, resulting in a few 33.33 millisecond frames mixed in with mostly 16.66 millisecond frames, then I probably won't notice.

 

But if it were running at 60 fps and then suddenly dropped to 50 fps for 30 seconds or more, that would result in a very noticeable stretch of time where the frames were inconsistently bouncing between 33.33 milliseconds and 16.66 milliseconds, which is super noticeable.

 

This second scenario (a game that targets 60 fps but spends considerable stretches of time in the 50s or high 40s) is the scenario where VRR helps the most, since it alleviates the wild swings in frame time.

 

So to me, with my non-VRR TV, if I'm only seeing occasional minor drops for a second or two from the 60 fps target, I'll stick to a 60 fps mode. But if it's a case where I'll be dropping from 60 fps for lengthy periods of time, I'll probably choose to cap at 30 instead for the sake of consistency.

[Cheersmate]

7 minutes ago, Ha-Satan said:

That's a difficult question to answer because it's very subjective. 

 

First, unless I'm mistaken, the VRR range on the PS5 is only 48-120Hz, so there is no VRR available in 30 fps mode. That said, this is usually OK since the vast majority of games on PS5 seem to have very consistent performance in their 30 fps modes.

 

In 60 fps mode, where the PS5 doesn't always stick to the 60 fps target all that well, it might make more of a difference. I also play on a 60Hz non-VRR TV, and typically I don't notice drops from the 60 fps line if they are brief and only a few frames. Like, if I'm at a solid 60 fps and suddenly it drops to 55 fps for a quarter of a second, resulting in a few 33.33 millisecond frames mixed in with mostly 16.66 millisecond frames, then I probably won't notice.

 

But if it were running at 60 fps and then suddenly dropped to 50 fps for 30 seconds or more, that would result in a very noticeable stretch of time where the frames were inconsistently bouncing between 33.33 milliseconds and 16.66 milliseconds, which is super noticeable.

 

This second scenario (a game that targets 60 fps but spends considerable stretches of time in the 50s or high 40s) is the scenario where VRR helps the most, since it alleviates the wild swings in frame time.

 

So to me, with my non-VRR TV, if I'm only seeing occasional minor drops for a second or two from the 60 fps target, I'll stick to a 60 fps mode. But if it's a case where I'll be dropping from 60 fps for lengthy periods of time, I'll probably choose to cap at 30 instead for the sake of consistency.

Playing 30 fps on a 60 hz screen doesnt have any downsides right ? What does Vsync do i saw that some games have that option as well on PS5? Does it make up for the lack of Vrr or Freesync

[Ha-Satan]

21 minutes ago, Cheersmate said:

Playing 30 fps on a 60 hz screen doesnt have any downsides right ? What does Vsync do i saw that some games have that option as well on PS5? Does it make up for the lack of Vrr or Freesync

V-sync and VRR (Freesync and G-sync are implementations of VRR) ultimately do the same thing: they prevent screen tearing by forcing the output of the GPU/console to line up with the display's refresh cycle. This video explains it in detail:

 

 

(I need to note that this info is a bit outdated now - modern VRR on PC has gotten to the place where basically all GPUs work with basically all VRR screens, so you don't have to match Nvidia with G-sync and AMD with Freesync any more, they all just work. On PS5, any TV with VRR and HDMI 2.1 should support VRR on PS5. That said, the information about the how and why of V-sync and VRR is all still accurate and helpful.)

 

V-sync achieves this sync between the console and the TV by forcing the GPU/console to wait for the TV's next refresh cycle. VRR does the opposite - it forces the TV to wait for whenever the GPU/console has finished the next frame.

 

VRR is the better solution between the two because V-sync adds additional input latency and can cause frame time inconsistency when you don't hit the target frame rate (watch the video for the reasons why this happens). VRR solves both of these problems. 

 

All that said, it's important to understand that V-sync is on by default in basically all console games. Console games essentially always have V-sync enabled and you cannot turn it off. There are a few that allow you to disable it for lower input latency, but if you do you will get screen tearing so you'll have to pick your poison.

 

As far as I understand it, V-sync is even enabled on console when VRR is engaged, so that you are getting typical V-sync behavior when you are at your target frame rate, but VRR takes over when you dip below the target frame rate (though I'm not 100% sure about the exact details of the implementation).

 

TL;DR V-sync will likely always be on in nearly every game you play on PS5, don't worry about it

 

Edit: Also, playing 30 fps on a 60Hz screen has no downsides other than the inherent downsides of lower frame rate (choppier motion, additional input latency, etc.) There's no difference playing 30 fps on 60Hz vs. playing 30 fps on 120Hz.

[Cheersmate]

4 minutes ago, Ha-Satan said:

V-sync and VRR (Freesync and G-sync are implementations of VRR) ultimately do the same thing: they prevent screen tearing by forcing the output of the GPU/console to line up with the display's refresh cycle. This video explains it in detail:

 

 

(I need to note that this info is a bit outdated now - modern VRR on PC has gotten to the place where basically all GPUs work with basically all VRR screens, so you don't have to match Nvidia with G-sync and AMD with Freesync any more, they all just work. On PS5, any TV with VRR and HDMI 2.1 should support VRR on PS5. That said, the information about the how and why of V-sync and VRR is all still accurate and helpful.)

 

V-sync achieves this sync between the console and the TV by forcing the GPU/console to wait for the TV's next refresh cycle. VRR does the opposite - it forces the TV to wait for whenever the GPU/console has finished the next frame.

 

VRR is the better solution between the two because V-sync adds additional input latency and can cause frame time inconsistency when you don't hit the target frame rate (watch the video for the reasons why this happens). VRR solves both of these problems. 

 

All that said, it's important to understand that V-sync is on by default in basically all console games. Console games essentially always have V-sync enabled and you cannot turn it off. There are a few that allow you to disable it for lower input latency, but if you do you will get screen tearing so you'll have to pick your poison.

 

As far as I understand it, V-sync is even enabled on console when VRR is engaged, so that you are getting typical V-sync behavior when you are at your target frame rate, but VRR takes over when you dip below the target frame rate (though I'm not 100% sure about the exact details of the implementation).

 

TL;DR V-sync will likely always be on in nearly every game you play on PS5, don't worry about it

 

Edit: Also, playing 30 fps on a 60Hz screen has no downsides other than the inherent downsides of lower frame rate (choppier motion, additional input latency, etc.) There's no difference playing 30 fps on 60Hz vs. playing 30 fps on 120Hz.

Thank you forr all the detailed information. I had ps 4 a couple years ago and had no issues with 30 fps, whats your experience on ps5 with the 30fps ? Is it noticeably choppy ?

[Ha-Satan]

3 minutes ago, Cheersmate said:

Thank you forr all the detailed information. I had ps 4 a couple years ago and had no issues with 30 fps, whats your experience on ps5 with the 30fps ? Is it noticeably choppy ?

 

Oh, to be clear, I don't have a PS5. I'm just saying stuff based on reading the spec sheet and watching videos about it. I have a PS4, Switch, and a couple PCs.

 

The basics of how V-sync and VRR work are the same regardless of platform. A steady 30 fps with V-sync on the PS4 will feel the same as a steady 30 fps with (the same kind of) V-sync on the PS5. If you were fine with 30 fps on PS4 you should be fine with 30 fps on PS5. The PS5 isn't somehow magically worse at 30 fps.

 

In fact, PS5 should generally be better than PS4 in 30 fps modes, because as far as I have seen, games on PS5 are in general even more consistent than games on PS4 when it comes to hitting 30 fps with fewer drops below.

 

1 hour ago, Cheersmate said:

Also does VRR smooth only higher fps levels or does it smooth out like 42-48 fps as well ?

 

Sorry, I didn't see this earlier. Like I said before, VRR only works on PS5 at 48 fps and above. As soon as you fall below 48 fps, regular V-sync takes over (even if your TV is capable of VRR).

[Cheersmate]

9 minutes ago, Ha-Satan said:

 

Oh, to be clear, I don't have a PS5. I'm just saying stuff based on reading the spec sheet and watching videos about it. I have a PS4, Switch, and a couple PCs.

 

The basics of how V-sync and VRR work are the same regardless of platform. A steady 30 fps with V-sync on the PS4 will feel the same as a steady 30 fps with (the same kind of) V-sync on the PS5. If you were fine with 30 fps on PS4 you should be fine with 30 fps on PS5. The PS5 isn't somehow magically worse at 30 fps.

 

In fact, PS5 should generally be better than PS4 in 30 fps modes, because as far as I have seen, games on PS5 are in general even more consistent than games on PS4 when it comes to hitting 30 fps with fewer drops below.

 

 

Sorry, I didn't see this earlier. Like I said before, VRR only works on PS5 at 48 fps and above. As soon as you fall below 48 fps, regular V-sync takes over (even if your TV is capable of VRR).

Thank you again for all the answers. You have cleared my mind about the problems i could have with a ps5 pro. Since the only online games i will be playing are going to be Forza 6 and Nba 26 i think i am fine with all the input latency that i am going to experience and from what i understand not a lot of games offer 120 fps so 120 hz vrr is kinda pointless in my case

[Ha-Satan]

43 minutes ago, Cheersmate said:

Thank you again for all the answers. You have cleared my mind about the problems i could have with a ps5 pro. Since the only online games i will be playing are going to be Forza 6 and Nba 26 i think i am fine with all the input latency that i am going to experience and from what i understand not a lot of games offer 120 fps so 120 hz vrr is kinda pointless in my case

Yeah, keep in mind that online games tend to enforce consistent V-sync settings on all players (on console at least), so most likely every other player is working with roughly the same amount of input latency as you.

 

The bigger advantage of going to 120hz would be that you could have access to the 40 fps modes in games where it's offered.

[SteveGrabowski0]

7 hours ago, Cheersmate said:

So i would play with 30 fps then ? Also does VRR smooth only higher fps levels or does it smooth out like 42-48 fps as well ?

I think the floor for PS5's VRR is 48Hz. 

[SteveGrabowski0]

8 hours ago, Cheersmate said:

So i would play with 30 fps then ? Also does VRR smooth only higher fps levels or does it smooth out like 42-48 fps as well ?

I only have the base PS5, but most games have really good 60 fps modes. Every once in a while you'll run into a dog like Final Fantasy XVI that runs in the 40s and looks awful or Final Fantasy VII Rebirth whose 60 fps mode uses a nearest neighbor upscale that looks super blurry. Though for the latter I think PS5 Pro has a much better 60 fps mode with PSSR instead of the blurry nearest neighbor upscale the game uses on base PS5. Now GTA VI I imagine is going to be 30 fps but overall I doubt you'll need to be playing 30 fps modes too often, especially on PS5 Pro.

[the real sfpour]

I would just get the normal ps5 but get a better monitor Instead