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efficient, entry level gaming PC

FlyingPotato_is_taken
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Budget (including currency): 400 (CPU + Mainboard + GPU)

Country: GER

Games, programs or workloads that it will be used for: 

Autodesk Inventor, RT-Thread Studio and some other

older games like Anno 2070, the division 2, kerbal space program

Other details (existing parts lists, whether any peripherals are needed, what you're upgrading from, when you're going to buy, what resolution and refresh rate you want to play at, etc): 

- case, PSU and cooler can be reused

- display: 3440x1440p 60Hz

- comfortable buying used

 

Looking for a high efficiency (fps/W) build with a target power consumption of roughly 150W. So the limitation here is really just performance per watt and not "raw" performance.

 

Should I go with the fastest APU currently on the market (Ryzen 7 8700G) paired with fast RAM (how fast?) or should I go with a Ryzen 5 8400F with an dGPU and power limit to like 100W GPU and 50W CPU?

For the dGPU what would be my option?

 

---------------------

edit: final configuration

 

AMD Ryzen 5 7600 (none X) @"45W" ECO mode (88W peak) (CPU: 65A EDC, 45A TDC,  60W PPT | SOC: 60A EDC, 40A TDC).

MSI RTX3070 gaming trio X @ 50% power limit  (120W) (10% faster than the RTX4060)

32GB DDR5 RAM 

B650i night devil motherboard (not recommended unless you like buying surprises or already know about it)

 

During gaming it is right around 160W power consumption.

 

 

 

 

The Declaration of Independence, once the charter of democracy, begins by saying that certain things are self-evident. If we were to trace the history of the American mind from Thomas Jefferson to William James, we should find that fewer and fewer things were self-evident, until at last hardly anything is self-evident. (G. K. Chesterton - Aug. 14 1926 (The Illustrated London News))

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13 minutes ago, FlyingPotato_is_taken said:

Budget (including currency): 400 (CPU + Mainboard + GPU)

Country: GER

Games, programs or workloads that it will be used for: 

Autodesk Inventor, RT-Thread Studio and some other

older games like Anno 2070, the division 2, kerbal space program

Other details (existing parts lists, whether any peripherals are needed, what you're upgrading from, when you're going to buy, what resolution and refresh rate you want to play at, etc): 

- case, PSU and cooler can be reused

- display: 3440x1440p 60Hz

- comfortable buying used

 

Looking for a high efficiency (fps/W) build with a target power consumption of roughly 150W. So the limitation here is really just performance per watt and not "raw" performance.

 

Should I go with the fastest APU currently on the market (Ryzen 7 8700G) paired with fast RAM (how fast?) or should I go with a Ryzen 5 8400F with an dGPU and power limit to like 100W GPU and 50W CPU?

For the dGPU what would be my option?

 

 

 

For gpus im thinking an rx 6600 or a 4060. Used.
Cpu wise, probably like an 5600 and variants.
And any decent b550 moba should be fine. Keep in mind form factor, larger boards use more power usually.

If you go with an apu you will need faster ram, so look towards cl30 6000MT/S.
I think you could restrict the cpu a bit and let the gpu run as usual if you can, should get you roughly 150 watts or so.

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10 minutes ago, FlyingPotato_is_taken said:

Looking for a high efficiency (fps/W) build with a target power consumption of roughly 150W.

Mini PC. It's far and away the best efficiency you're gonna get, and if you find one with one of the Hawk Point APUs in it, it should perform about as well as any of the desktop APUs but with low power surrounding components and a very small footprint. 

 

12 minutes ago, FlyingPotato_is_taken said:

power limit to like 100W GPU and 50W CPU?

Do remember that there's more things in this system than just the CPU and GPU that draw power. Sure, they're the biggest, but you do need to factor in PSU efficiencies (that's another ~10% right there with even a high end unit), fans, RAM (with XMP enabled, DDR5 consumes about 3-5W per stick under load), VRM inefficiencies, etc., so the actual limits you'd need are closer to 75-85W GPU and 40W CPU. It's doable, sure, and there are cards with a low enough power limit that this could make sense (I.E. RTX 3050 6G) though they are of questionable value. If you really want a custom PC, this is likely to get you the better performer still, but it will be pushing the power target much more aggressively than other options no matter what. 

 

17 minutes ago, FlyingPotato_is_taken said:

Should I go with the fastest APU currently on the market (Ryzen 7 8700G) paired with fast RAM (how fast?)

I will point out that the iGPU on the 8600G is almost as fast as the 8700G but quite a bit cheaper. 

 

Anyway, as for that how fast question, there's two answers to this: 7200 CL34 or 6400CL32. I personally own an 8600G (I bought it because it looked fun to mess with), and one of the first things I did was a memory performance scaling test with both XMP and manually tightened subtimings. I can get those numbers if you care about it, I should have it saved somewhere, but the gist of it was that 6000 CL30 was pretty slow, 6000 CL30 with tightened subtimings was about as fast as 7200 CL34, there was about a smaller but still noticeable jump from 7200, 8000 was weirdly slow that I still can't figure out why (still faster than 6000 CL30, but slower than 7200, and this was consistent across reboots), and hand tightened 8400 CL40 was by far the fastest in all but one scenario (Spiderman: Remastered, for whatever reason the 1% lows on the 6000 CL30 setups were consistently the best). Basically, faster was better, though there was a trailing off if you were just using XMP past about 7200. As for why I recommend those two options, 7200 CL34 is getting cheaper nowadays and was the fastest XMP I tested (though I admittedly went in larger jumps so testing didn't take ages), or 6400 CL32 as it's the cheapest kits that are guaranteed to be Hynix A die which pretty consistently does super fast settings like DDR5 8400 if you want to manually overclock it. 

 

 

I consider this discussion academic though, a used mini PC is the better pick for a setup like this. 

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@Zenny232323 Really want AM5 with DDR5 fif I go with an APU to have an upgrade path (assuming they will release another APU for AM5).

 

@RONOTHAN## I like silence and I doubt that there are mini PCs like this. With a desktop I can use the Noctua NH-D15.

There aren't any of those cursed China mobile CPU in a desktop formfactor mainboards for Ryzen 300 or the latest intel option (please correct me, those mobile chips are looking awesome) and as far as I am aware is the r7 8700G a mobile CPU/APU silicon in an AM5 desktop socket. At least some reviews suggesting this.

 

Power limit is a rough target to keep the room temperature during the summer months liveable.

 

6400MHz CL32 sounds great. 32GB of it can be bought on the used market. For 7200 there are no used kits so it means buying new (nearly twice the price compared to used 6400).

The Declaration of Independence, once the charter of democracy, begins by saying that certain things are self-evident. If we were to trace the history of the American mind from Thomas Jefferson to William James, we should find that fewer and fewer things were self-evident, until at last hardly anything is self-evident. (G. K. Chesterton - Aug. 14 1926 (The Illustrated London News))

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4 minutes ago, FlyingPotato_is_taken said:

6400MHz CL32 sounds great. 32GB of it can be bought on the used market.

If the plan is to overclock, this is a solid option, though keep in mind that while new DDR5 6400 kits are guaranteed to be A die, some older kits are the older M die. It's still good, but it doesn't clock anywhere near as high, and those higher clocked kits really do help. With Corsair and G.Skill, you can actually look at the label to see which die revision it is, so that might be worth a look if you want to get one of those kits, then you can even go for lower and cheaper speed bins that should still overclock really well (all the tests I did on the 8600G at 8400, for instance, was done on a 6000 CL30 kit). 

 

12 minutes ago, FlyingPotato_is_taken said:

I like silence and I doubt that there are mini PCs like this.

From what I know there are still some relatively quiet mini PCs out there, since they don't need loud fans as they draw almost no power. 

 

Steam Decks are also an option, since then there's also the benefit of portability. That was my plan over this last summer for games. 

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@RONOTHAN## How would you rate the ASRock B650M Pro RS in terms of signal integrity/RAM speed?

The Declaration of Independence, once the charter of democracy, begins by saying that certain things are self-evident. If we were to trace the history of the American mind from Thomas Jefferson to William James, we should find that fewer and fewer things were self-evident, until at last hardly anything is self-evident. (G. K. Chesterton - Aug. 14 1926 (The Illustrated London News))

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1 hour ago, FlyingPotato_is_taken said:

@RONOTHAN## How would you rate the ASRock B650M Pro RS in terms of signal integrity/RAM speed?

It's probably not going to be too high for its capabilities since it's a 4 DIMM 6 layer mATX board, all factors that lower its max rated memory speed (mATX itself isn't a bad thing, though for a lot of boards the mATX version has the topology either cheapened or altered to make space for other stuff). The B650M HDV/M.2 is a board that's known for being cheap and being able to do higher frequencies (that's the board I'm using), so if that's an option it would be my recommendation here. 

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17 hours ago, Zenny232323 said:

For gpus im thinking an rx 6600 or a 4060. Used.

Looks like this is the best option.

Used RTX4060, Ryzen 5 8400F, Chinese ITX motherboard (AliExpress free return option if it  doesn't match expectations so relatively low risk purchase. By than maybe the Asrock is back in stock at the 105€ price tag instead of the current 125€).

 

Neither a exciting GPU or CPU but might be the highest efficacy there is at the moment and it barley fits the budget.

The Declaration of Independence, once the charter of democracy, begins by saying that certain things are self-evident. If we were to trace the history of the American mind from Thomas Jefferson to William James, we should find that fewer and fewer things were self-evident, until at last hardly anything is self-evident. (G. K. Chesterton - Aug. 14 1926 (The Illustrated London News))

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...better to get the Ryzen 5 7600.

 

Even if you ignore the high boost clock (which may be a non-event if this will be power-limnted), it thrashes the Ryzen 5 8400F in any gaming as it has double the L3 cache (32Mb instead of 16Mb).

 

There's also 32Mb L3 cache for the slightly slower/faster 7500F or 7600X.

 

They're all 65W parts .... so any of those rather than the 8400F, which is a purely for office PC / HTPC builds.

 

 

Main rig: Ryzen 7 7800X3D, RTX3080Ti FE, 32Gb Teamgroup Create-T DDR5-6000C30, AC Freezer3 280mm AIO, Asrock Steel Legend X670E, M.2 2Tb Samsung 990 Pro, M.2 1Tb WDSN550, SATA 8Tb WD80EFAX, Corsair HX850, LianLi O11 Air Mini + 3x NF-A14's, MSI MPG 271QRX (27"/1440P/360Hz), Gigabyte M27Q (27"/1440P/170Hz), Asus PA248 (24"/1200P/60Hz), G815 kbd, G Pro X Superlight 2, Audezee Maxwell.

Games room "TV rig": 5800X3D, AC Freezer2 280mm AIO, ASUS Prime B450M, RTX4080S w/iChill AIO, 32Gb TridentZ DDR4-3600C14, M.2 500Gb & 1Tb WDSN550, 8Tb WD80EFAX, BeQuiet Straight 1000W,  LianLi O11 Air Mini, LG G4 (55"/4K/120Hz), G815 kbd, G502 mouse, LG G1 Soundbar / Audezee Maxwell.

Lounge HTPC: Minisforum UM760 Slim, Ryzen 5 7640HS, 16Gb DDR5, 1Tb M.2, LG C2 (42"/4K/120Hz), Logitech Touch K400.
Laptop: LOQ16, RTX4060, 16Gb DDR5, 2x 2Tb SN990 M.2.

NAS: Synology 1812+, 3Gb RAM, 3x16Tb Seagate EXOS RAID5, 1Tb MX500 cache, 3x3Tb WDRED RAID6, 120Gb SSD cache. 

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@BahnStormer The Ryzen 5 7600 (200€) is twice the price of the Ryzen 5 8400F (100€).

 

In other words:

50€ RAM

100€  Ryzen 5 8400F

112€ mainboard

240€ RTX4060

-----------

502€ total

-> already 100€ above my target budget but should be significantly better than the APU (from what I have read/found online)

 

The Ryzen 5 7600 would push it another 100€ above budget to 602€ which is significantly more than I was looking to spend.

To cut cost  a 120€ RTX2070 would be possible but than the overall power efficacy would probably be quiet bad in comparison.

The Declaration of Independence, once the charter of democracy, begins by saying that certain things are self-evident. If we were to trace the history of the American mind from Thomas Jefferson to William James, we should find that fewer and fewer things were self-evident, until at last hardly anything is self-evident. (G. K. Chesterton - Aug. 14 1926 (The Illustrated London News))

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8 hours ago, FlyingPotato_is_taken said:

twice the price

Sorry. Perfectly understood.... I won't criticise people's budget limitations 😉

 

I just wanted to make sure you knew what you were buying: people get sucked in with "bigger number better", but there's a reason why the 32Mb cache €125-€150 7500F is slightly more expensive than the 16Mv cache 8440F.

Main rig: Ryzen 7 7800X3D, RTX3080Ti FE, 32Gb Teamgroup Create-T DDR5-6000C30, AC Freezer3 280mm AIO, Asrock Steel Legend X670E, M.2 2Tb Samsung 990 Pro, M.2 1Tb WDSN550, SATA 8Tb WD80EFAX, Corsair HX850, LianLi O11 Air Mini + 3x NF-A14's, MSI MPG 271QRX (27"/1440P/360Hz), Gigabyte M27Q (27"/1440P/170Hz), Asus PA248 (24"/1200P/60Hz), G815 kbd, G Pro X Superlight 2, Audezee Maxwell.

Games room "TV rig": 5800X3D, AC Freezer2 280mm AIO, ASUS Prime B450M, RTX4080S w/iChill AIO, 32Gb TridentZ DDR4-3600C14, M.2 500Gb & 1Tb WDSN550, 8Tb WD80EFAX, BeQuiet Straight 1000W,  LianLi O11 Air Mini, LG G4 (55"/4K/120Hz), G815 kbd, G502 mouse, LG G1 Soundbar / Audezee Maxwell.

Lounge HTPC: Minisforum UM760 Slim, Ryzen 5 7640HS, 16Gb DDR5, 1Tb M.2, LG C2 (42"/4K/120Hz), Logitech Touch K400.
Laptop: LOQ16, RTX4060, 16Gb DDR5, 2x 2Tb SN990 M.2.

NAS: Synology 1812+, 3Gb RAM, 3x16Tb Seagate EXOS RAID5, 1Tb MX500 cache, 3x3Tb WDRED RAID6, 120Gb SSD cache. 

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13 hours ago, FlyingPotato_is_taken said:

@BahnStormer The Ryzen 5 7600 (200€) is twice the price of the Ryzen 5 8400F (100€).

 

In other words:

50€ RAM

100€  Ryzen 5 8400F

112€ mainboard

240€ RTX4060

-----------

502€ total

-> already 100€ above my target budget but should be significantly better than the APU (from what I have read/found online)

 

The Ryzen 5 7600 would push it another 100€ above budget to 602€ which is significantly more than I was looking to spend.

To cut cost  a 120€ RTX2070 would be possible but than the overall power efficacy would probably be quiet bad in comparison.

I'd suggest going with am4 if you could. Better options and cheaper. Get a 3600 or a 5600(preferebly 5600, wont bottleneck your gpu that much), ddr4 ram's cheaper and so are the motherboards.

 

Also, you didn't mention your case you're reusing. Is it ATX?

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@BahnStormer AMDs naming is horrible.

What is better a Ryzen 5 8400F or a Ryzen 5 8500G (ignoring the iGPU of it)?

 

The Ryzen 5 8400F... if you would fall for the Ryzen 5 8500G trap it would limit the dGPU to a x4 interface (sic.). With a Ryzen 5 8400F it is at least x8 which matches the RTX4060 but still not great either. I nearly trapped into it seeing a R5 8500G for the same price as the 8400F and assumed that the R5 8400F would be a R5 8500G with lower clock and GPU fused off (those CPUs aren't the "same").

 

4 hours ago, Zenny232323 said:

Get a 3600 or a 5600(preferebly 5600, wont bottleneck your gpu that much), ddr4 ram's cheaper and so are the motherboards.

How does they play in term of power efficacy? I  know that those efficient parts aren't as fast (by a significant margin) as the power hungry ones in the same price class especilly as there isn't a used market for AM5 CPUs at the moment.

For this winter I bought a RTX3070 which I will replace in spring with a RTX4060 (hopefully they are cheaper in half a year). The RTX3070 cost significantly less than a RTX4060 on the used market at the moment.

 

4 hours ago, Zenny232323 said:

Also, you didn't mention your case you're reusing. Is it ATX?

The truth is: I didn't had a case and PSU but wouldn't want the focus on it. As I would buy a matching one around the core components (CPU, mainboard, RAM, GPU). Meanwhile I found a good used PSU offer: It is a Seasonic PX-650. Case will likely be an CoolerMaster NR200P and the CPU cooler is a Noctua NH-D15.

 

DDR5 RAM is already bought:  2x16GB 7100MHz CL34.

In the end I bought a new ITX mainboard: Aliexpress special for 112€ (B650). No idea what exactly I bought but at least decent enough to feature USB 3.0 and 2.5GBit ethernet. No idea if it is good but I like ITX so I gambled on it (Aliexpress does accept return so still low risk). Wasn't higher cost than the MATX or ATX options of well known brands.

"Issue" with the suggested Asrock was that it is sold at elevated prices due to supply constrains. At 105€ it looks like a good option. At 130€? I don't know.

 

CPU? Still no idea.

Ryzen 5 8400F: good enough for now, lowest cost option so maybe the lowest overall cost once I upgrade. Resell value might be near zero for this CPU.

Ryzen 5 8600G: middle ground at 180€. "value" here depends on the resell value in 2-3 years (assuming there are finally good value AM5 CPUs).

Ryzen 7 8700G: Best APU at the moment so unless it gets dethroned might keep the most value (Resell value) which could make it the lowest cost option.

Ryzen 7 5700F: I don't know. Right now to expensive for my taste for what it is and resell value might not be there to offset this.

some Intel? I could sell/return the AM5 mainboard but from what I see is intel not even close to AMD power efficacy and I don't expect an upgrade path for intel due to their 2 years, 1 chipset/compatible policy.

Why AM5? AM4 was a great ride and I expect that I can upgrade only the CPU in the future. So large reason for it (for me) is also buying into the future.

 

 

9 hours ago, BahnStormer said:

I won't criticise people's budget limitations 😉

For me there is what I would like to spend.

What I am willing to spend if there is a significant benefit. 

And the absolute limit what I am going to spend.

The Declaration of Independence, once the charter of democracy, begins by saying that certain things are self-evident. If we were to trace the history of the American mind from Thomas Jefferson to William James, we should find that fewer and fewer things were self-evident, until at last hardly anything is self-evident. (G. K. Chesterton - Aug. 14 1926 (The Illustrated London News))

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26 minutes ago, FlyingPotato_is_taken said:

AMDs naming is horrible.

Fairly certain they make it intentionally cr@p to confuse people into buying some of their rubbish that they couldn't sell any other way.

 

I'm confused.... what have you bought already and what is the budget left to fill in the gaps?

 

I thought we had €400 for motherboard, CPU and GPU, but you mentioned some RAM and an ITX board?!?

 

RE: the RAM you mentioned - it doesn't sound like AMD EXPO RAM, but if it runs at that speed, it's fundamentally a good spec, but will require a LOT of manual tuning... 7100MT/sec CL34 is pretty unusual, but it should be 9.6ns, which is fast.... so you can manually tune it if your motherboard BIOS is good enough (?!).... in theory, the RAM should run DDR5 6000 CL30 as that only needs 10ns (6000MT/sec is the speed to aim for for on any AM5 system).

Main rig: Ryzen 7 7800X3D, RTX3080Ti FE, 32Gb Teamgroup Create-T DDR5-6000C30, AC Freezer3 280mm AIO, Asrock Steel Legend X670E, M.2 2Tb Samsung 990 Pro, M.2 1Tb WDSN550, SATA 8Tb WD80EFAX, Corsair HX850, LianLi O11 Air Mini + 3x NF-A14's, MSI MPG 271QRX (27"/1440P/360Hz), Gigabyte M27Q (27"/1440P/170Hz), Asus PA248 (24"/1200P/60Hz), G815 kbd, G Pro X Superlight 2, Audezee Maxwell.

Games room "TV rig": 5800X3D, AC Freezer2 280mm AIO, ASUS Prime B450M, RTX4080S w/iChill AIO, 32Gb TridentZ DDR4-3600C14, M.2 500Gb & 1Tb WDSN550, 8Tb WD80EFAX, BeQuiet Straight 1000W,  LianLi O11 Air Mini, LG G4 (55"/4K/120Hz), G815 kbd, G502 mouse, LG G1 Soundbar / Audezee Maxwell.

Lounge HTPC: Minisforum UM760 Slim, Ryzen 5 7640HS, 16Gb DDR5, 1Tb M.2, LG C2 (42"/4K/120Hz), Logitech Touch K400.
Laptop: LOQ16, RTX4060, 16Gb DDR5, 2x 2Tb SN990 M.2.

NAS: Synology 1812+, 3Gb RAM, 3x16Tb Seagate EXOS RAID5, 1Tb MX500 cache, 3x3Tb WDRED RAID6, 120Gb SSD cache. 

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Im wondering - is there any particular reason you need power draw to be so low? Is the price of power in Germany just completely out of control or something so it makes no sense to build a powerful PC?

 

@FlyingPotato_is_taken Honestly, all the naming is bad. Who the hell comes up with 7900-XTX after 6900-XT? What about 4070-Ti-Super? How about stupid Core Ultra? Its all stupid, and half of the numbers don't make any sense either. Guess that's the world we live in now lol 🤣

 

Top-Tier Air-Cooled Gaming PC

Current Build Thread:

 

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1 hour ago, WallacEngineering said:

Im wondering - is there any particular reason you need power draw to be so low? Is the price of power in Germany just completely out of control or something so it makes no sense to build a powerful PC?

 

@FlyingPotato_is_taken Honestly, all the naming is bad. Who the hell comes up with 7900-XTX after 6900-XT? What about 4070-Ti-Super? How about stupid Core Ultra? Its all stupid, and half of the numbers don't make any sense either. Guess that's the world we live in now lol 🤣

 

agreed.... they're all pretty messed up.... just wait until you see AMD's laptop chaos.... not sure what annoys me more - the Intel pointless "Ultra" names or AMD's "AI" bullwhacky.... everybody's at it... it feels like those over-sized chrome exhaust tips on mid-spec family sedan cars.... still not as bad as the Taycan "Turbo"..... it's an EV!!! 🤣

 

Just like the cars - not buying any of that junk until they just make a decent product that they don't have to put meaningless adjectives on to make it sound more interesting.

Main rig: Ryzen 7 7800X3D, RTX3080Ti FE, 32Gb Teamgroup Create-T DDR5-6000C30, AC Freezer3 280mm AIO, Asrock Steel Legend X670E, M.2 2Tb Samsung 990 Pro, M.2 1Tb WDSN550, SATA 8Tb WD80EFAX, Corsair HX850, LianLi O11 Air Mini + 3x NF-A14's, MSI MPG 271QRX (27"/1440P/360Hz), Gigabyte M27Q (27"/1440P/170Hz), Asus PA248 (24"/1200P/60Hz), G815 kbd, G Pro X Superlight 2, Audezee Maxwell.

Games room "TV rig": 5800X3D, AC Freezer2 280mm AIO, ASUS Prime B450M, RTX4080S w/iChill AIO, 32Gb TridentZ DDR4-3600C14, M.2 500Gb & 1Tb WDSN550, 8Tb WD80EFAX, BeQuiet Straight 1000W,  LianLi O11 Air Mini, LG G4 (55"/4K/120Hz), G815 kbd, G502 mouse, LG G1 Soundbar / Audezee Maxwell.

Lounge HTPC: Minisforum UM760 Slim, Ryzen 5 7640HS, 16Gb DDR5, 1Tb M.2, LG C2 (42"/4K/120Hz), Logitech Touch K400.
Laptop: LOQ16, RTX4060, 16Gb DDR5, 2x 2Tb SN990 M.2.

NAS: Synology 1812+, 3Gb RAM, 3x16Tb Seagate EXOS RAID5, 1Tb MX500 cache, 3x3Tb WDRED RAID6, 120Gb SSD cache. 

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8 hours ago, WallacEngineering said:

Im wondering - is there any particular reason you need power draw to be so low?

Heat.

Summer get hotter each year. Air conditioning isn't a thing and a (small) room can just take that much heat before getting noticeably warm when the PC runs all day.

 

8 hours ago, WallacEngineering said:

Is the price of power in Germany just completely out of control or something

We had a time where the price was over 0,50€/kWH but thankfully power prices are down since.

 

 

8 hours ago, BahnStormer said:

7100MT/sec CL34 is pretty unusual

My bad. 7200MHz CL34: https://www.teamgroupinc.com/en/product-detail/memory/T-CREATE/expert-u-dimm-ddr5-black/expert-u-dimm-ddr5-black-CTCED532G7200HC34ADC01/

 

8 hours ago, BahnStormer said:

I'm confused.... what have you bought already and what is the budget left to fill in the gaps?

I thought we had €400 for motherboard, CPU and GPU, but you mentioned some RAM and an ITX board?!?

Started buying a lot of parts since Sunday afternoon (watching the used market and buying when interesting listing pop up).

Budget left after having bought all the other parts:  130€ + max. further 100€.

Only part missing/gap is the CPU at the moment.

 

Decided to go now with 500€ budget to make room for the RTX4060 down the road as it is a major upgrade over the 8700G APU and there is no way you could fit this 115W GPU (might be worse than a 3060ti in some aspect but they nailed the power consumption) into the 400€ budget.

 

As mentioned I expect that I would run a 8400F only for a few years until there is a better option but I  don't feel like a 7500F is worth twice the price in terms in performance. So I am currently split between buying now a "good" CPU or buying cheap and putting the money towards an upgrade down the road.

The Declaration of Independence, once the charter of democracy, begins by saying that certain things are self-evident. If we were to trace the history of the American mind from Thomas Jefferson to William James, we should find that fewer and fewer things were self-evident, until at last hardly anything is self-evident. (G. K. Chesterton - Aug. 14 1926 (The Illustrated London News))

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TL;DR Ryzen 7 8700F for 180€? Ryzen 5 7500F for 140€? Ryzen 5 8400F for 100€?

 

There are used:

Ryzen 5 7500F: 140€

ryzen 5 7600: 160€

Ryzen 7 7700: 200€

 

new options: 

Ryzen 5 8400F: 100€

Ryzen 5 8600G: 160€

ryzen 7 8700F: 180€

ryzen 7 8700G:  240€

 

Looking at the PCGH review: the ryzen 5 8400F seems so to be higher better performance/watt.

Ryzen 5000 is 1/4th of the performance/watt for gaming.

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passmark: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/5169vs6056vs5648vs5033vs5842/AMD-Ryzen-7-7700-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-8400F-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-7500F-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-7600X-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-8600G

image.png.9a2cbf2325867ffb61e7f082528b97ad.pngimage.png.9f5be775a73d318b9ef97b6d973b456d.png

 

without further digging and considering cashback and the like: list of all the AM5 CPU with local pricing: https://geizhals.de/?cat=cpuamdam4&xf=820_AM5&sort=p#productlist

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The Declaration of Independence, once the charter of democracy, begins by saying that certain things are self-evident. If we were to trace the history of the American mind from Thomas Jefferson to William James, we should find that fewer and fewer things were self-evident, until at last hardly anything is self-evident. (G. K. Chesterton - Aug. 14 1926 (The Illustrated London News))

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Ryzen 5 7600X looking good compared to the Ryzen 7 8700F.

Worst case in the PCGH  benchmark it is about 20W worse (60 vs. 80W) but in their gaming benchmark they where on pair to the 8700F and gaming is the highest heat put for me due to the GPU.

 

Am I missing something?

The Declaration of Independence, once the charter of democracy, begins by saying that certain things are self-evident. If we were to trace the history of the American mind from Thomas Jefferson to William James, we should find that fewer and fewer things were self-evident, until at last hardly anything is self-evident. (G. K. Chesterton - Aug. 14 1926 (The Illustrated London News))

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3 hours ago, FlyingPotato_is_taken said:

Ryzen 5 7600X looking good compared to the Ryzen 7 8700F.

100% agreed - 7600X is the clear winner once there is ANY sort of discrete GPU and all of them (other than the "F" variants) have an onboard iGPU too - I know as I use mine for the 2nd and 3rd screens 🙂 

 

The 32Mb cache (7600/7600X) will make a big difference as soon as you have any discrete GPU.

I'm not sure what those benchmarks are though... I don't think they are for iGPU performance - both Intel and AMD use "F" at the end of the name to indicate no onboard graphics.

 

If you will be using the APU for a long while - I think the onboard iGPU on the 8600G has a lot more capacity than the 7600X though - the 7600X just does "graphics output", but it's not really for gaming: https://versus.com/en/amd-ryzen-5-7600x-vs-amd-ryzen-5-8600g

 

image.png.e0ca5391863e5227255385bead97630d.png

 

versus
image.png.52b2a59005a62dfb66bd4becbdd25a88.png

 

Main rig: Ryzen 7 7800X3D, RTX3080Ti FE, 32Gb Teamgroup Create-T DDR5-6000C30, AC Freezer3 280mm AIO, Asrock Steel Legend X670E, M.2 2Tb Samsung 990 Pro, M.2 1Tb WDSN550, SATA 8Tb WD80EFAX, Corsair HX850, LianLi O11 Air Mini + 3x NF-A14's, MSI MPG 271QRX (27"/1440P/360Hz), Gigabyte M27Q (27"/1440P/170Hz), Asus PA248 (24"/1200P/60Hz), G815 kbd, G Pro X Superlight 2, Audezee Maxwell.

Games room "TV rig": 5800X3D, AC Freezer2 280mm AIO, ASUS Prime B450M, RTX4080S w/iChill AIO, 32Gb TridentZ DDR4-3600C14, M.2 500Gb & 1Tb WDSN550, 8Tb WD80EFAX, BeQuiet Straight 1000W,  LianLi O11 Air Mini, LG G4 (55"/4K/120Hz), G815 kbd, G502 mouse, LG G1 Soundbar / Audezee Maxwell.

Lounge HTPC: Minisforum UM760 Slim, Ryzen 5 7640HS, 16Gb DDR5, 1Tb M.2, LG C2 (42"/4K/120Hz), Logitech Touch K400.
Laptop: LOQ16, RTX4060, 16Gb DDR5, 2x 2Tb SN990 M.2.

NAS: Synology 1812+, 3Gb RAM, 3x16Tb Seagate EXOS RAID5, 1Tb MX500 cache, 3x3Tb WDRED RAID6, 120Gb SSD cache. 

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Even a RTX3050 will be a different world of performance to ANY integrated graphics.

 

If you really want the best integrated graphics and you were never considering a discrete GPU, then I would have said you need a different approach: Ryzen 7 7840HS (laptop CPU) in a mini-PC , but that's not a match for the motherboard / RAM you have already bought...

 

It is also limited to 16Mb L3 cache, but it has 50% more L1 cache, 30% more L2 cache and the GPU part has 50% more cores and clocked at double the speed (i.e. at least 3x better for gaming than any Desktop APU in most scenarios).... all at "35W" TDP, but I think it will boost to around 45W.


https://versus.com/en/amd-ryzen-5-7600x-vs-amd-ryzen-5-8600g-vs-amd-ryzen-7-7840hs

Main rig: Ryzen 7 7800X3D, RTX3080Ti FE, 32Gb Teamgroup Create-T DDR5-6000C30, AC Freezer3 280mm AIO, Asrock Steel Legend X670E, M.2 2Tb Samsung 990 Pro, M.2 1Tb WDSN550, SATA 8Tb WD80EFAX, Corsair HX850, LianLi O11 Air Mini + 3x NF-A14's, MSI MPG 271QRX (27"/1440P/360Hz), Gigabyte M27Q (27"/1440P/170Hz), Asus PA248 (24"/1200P/60Hz), G815 kbd, G Pro X Superlight 2, Audezee Maxwell.

Games room "TV rig": 5800X3D, AC Freezer2 280mm AIO, ASUS Prime B450M, RTX4080S w/iChill AIO, 32Gb TridentZ DDR4-3600C14, M.2 500Gb & 1Tb WDSN550, 8Tb WD80EFAX, BeQuiet Straight 1000W,  LianLi O11 Air Mini, LG G4 (55"/4K/120Hz), G815 kbd, G502 mouse, LG G1 Soundbar / Audezee Maxwell.

Lounge HTPC: Minisforum UM760 Slim, Ryzen 5 7640HS, 16Gb DDR5, 1Tb M.2, LG C2 (42"/4K/120Hz), Logitech Touch K400.
Laptop: LOQ16, RTX4060, 16Gb DDR5, 2x 2Tb SN990 M.2.

NAS: Synology 1812+, 3Gb RAM, 3x16Tb Seagate EXOS RAID5, 1Tb MX500 cache, 3x3Tb WDRED RAID6, 120Gb SSD cache. 

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51 minutes ago, BahnStormer said:

'm not sure what those benchmarks are though...

As far as I can tell various games paired with an RTX4090 GPU:  https://www.pcgameshardware.de/Ryzen-7-8700F-CPU-280504/Tests/APU-Mobile-Desktop-Phoenix-Review-1450790/2/

 

The Declaration of Independence, once the charter of democracy, begins by saying that certain things are self-evident. If we were to trace the history of the American mind from Thomas Jefferson to William James, we should find that fewer and fewer things were self-evident, until at last hardly anything is self-evident. (G. K. Chesterton - Aug. 14 1926 (The Illustrated London News))

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2 hours ago, FlyingPotato_is_taken said:

paired with an RTX4090

Fair enough.... but that means those are PURE CPU benchmarks once any GPU restriction is removed, so only worth looking at that if you will get a Discrete GPU (in which case, 7600/7600X is the clear winner).


In an APU scenario (no discrete GPU), the 7840HS would win by a mile.... but on that chart, it would be fairly low.

Main rig: Ryzen 7 7800X3D, RTX3080Ti FE, 32Gb Teamgroup Create-T DDR5-6000C30, AC Freezer3 280mm AIO, Asrock Steel Legend X670E, M.2 2Tb Samsung 990 Pro, M.2 1Tb WDSN550, SATA 8Tb WD80EFAX, Corsair HX850, LianLi O11 Air Mini + 3x NF-A14's, MSI MPG 271QRX (27"/1440P/360Hz), Gigabyte M27Q (27"/1440P/170Hz), Asus PA248 (24"/1200P/60Hz), G815 kbd, G Pro X Superlight 2, Audezee Maxwell.

Games room "TV rig": 5800X3D, AC Freezer2 280mm AIO, ASUS Prime B450M, RTX4080S w/iChill AIO, 32Gb TridentZ DDR4-3600C14, M.2 500Gb & 1Tb WDSN550, 8Tb WD80EFAX, BeQuiet Straight 1000W,  LianLi O11 Air Mini, LG G4 (55"/4K/120Hz), G815 kbd, G502 mouse, LG G1 Soundbar / Audezee Maxwell.

Lounge HTPC: Minisforum UM760 Slim, Ryzen 5 7640HS, 16Gb DDR5, 1Tb M.2, LG C2 (42"/4K/120Hz), Logitech Touch K400.
Laptop: LOQ16, RTX4060, 16Gb DDR5, 2x 2Tb SN990 M.2.

NAS: Synology 1812+, 3Gb RAM, 3x16Tb Seagate EXOS RAID5, 1Tb MX500 cache, 3x3Tb WDRED RAID6, 120Gb SSD cache. 

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