ATX Spec Evolution

[ToboRobot]

I've been thinking about a video with Gordon I saw about ATX and how much computers have changed since the mid nineties but it is still just ATX.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATX

 

"ATX (Advanced Technology Extended) is a motherboard and power supply configuration specification, patented by David Dent in 1995 at Intel"

Maybe it is time for something new?

Something designed with repairability and upgradability as a foundational principal as well as openness and performance.

BIOS needs a total modern rethink and rewrite.

The parts of a motherboard as well can be changed and improved to minimize ewaste and adapt to the modern thermal profiles of computer parts.

A few specific ideas I have had recently.

 

Modular form factor with specific modules.  Core computer (CPU, GPU, RAM, chipset), Expansion (PCIE,NVME), Power, IO could be separate parts, so if your IO or power section gets damaged, you replace that part instead of the entire motherboard.

What else would people like to see in a future revision of ATX to last the next few decades?

[igormp]

1 minute ago, ToboRobot said:

BIOS needs a total modern rethink and rewrite.

That'd be UEFI, which already is vastly different from your old BIOS and is pretty much the standard nowadays.

6 minutes ago, ToboRobot said:

Modular form factor with specific modules.  Core computer (CPU, GPU, RAM, chipset), Expansion (PCIE,NVME), Power, IO could be separate parts, so if your IO or power section gets damaged, you replace that part instead of the entire motherboard.

Having a modular chipset would be interesting, but I wonder one would be able to make the IO that comes with it be modilar too.

Power is already modular, but one thing that'd be nice is the 12VO standard, 5 and 3.3v lines are really not that used and wouldn't be hard to have the mobo deal with it, while increasing the efficiency of the overall system.

[Middcore]

15 minutes ago, ToboRobot said:

I've been thinking about a video with Gordon I saw about ATX and how much computers have changed since the mid nineties but it is still just ATX.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATX

 

"ATX (Advanced Technology Extended) is a motherboard and power supply configuration specification, patented by David Dent in 1995 at Intel"

Maybe it is time for something new?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTX_(form_factor) It was tried. 

 

15 minutes ago, ToboRobot said:

Something designed with repairability and upgradability as a foundational principal as well as openness and performance.

 

I'm not really sure that there is actually an appetite for greater reparability, upgradability, and openness, at least not from the stakeholders who would have to get on board with a new spec. 

 

 

15 minutes ago, ToboRobot said:

BIOS needs a total modern rethink and rewrite.

 

It had one, it's called UEFI. 

 

15 minutes ago, ToboRobot said:

The parts of a motherboard as well can be changed and improved to minimize ewaste and adapt to the modern thermal profiles of computer parts.

A few specific ideas I have had recently.

 

Modular form factor with specific modules.  Core computer (CPU, GPU, RAM, chipset), Expansion (PCIE,NVME), Power, IO could be separate parts, so if your IO or power section gets damaged, you replace that part instead of the entire motherboard.

 

This sounds like it would make manufacturing costs skyrocket for capabilities that would rarely be used. 

[ToboRobot]

13 minutes ago, igormp said:

That'd be UEFI, which already is vastly different from your old BIOS and is pretty much the standard nowadays.

 

Having a modular chipset would be interesting, but I wonder one would be able to make the IO that comes with it be modilar too.

Power is already modular, but one thing that'd be nice is the 12VO standard, 5 and 3.3v lines are really not that used and wouldn't be hard to have the mobo deal with it, while increasing the efficiency of the overall system.

No, UEFI is still vastly outdated and needs a real modern solution. 

The section of your motherboard that has power input from the PSU and then manages the voltages for different parts etc (including VRM) are part of the big motherboard.  If you can make this a separate PCB with a fused connection to the core compute etc.  Increased upfront cost, for long term repairability.

[ToboRobot]

13 minutes ago, Middcore said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTX_(form_factor) It was tried. 

 

 

I'm not really sure that there is actually an appetite for greater reparability, upgradability, and openness, at least not from the stakeholders who would have to get on board with a new spec. 

 

 

 

It had one, it's called UEFI. 

 

 

This sounds like it would make manufacturing costs skyrocket for capabilities that would rarely be used. 

sorry for got to post the link.

 

know about btx and that evolving standards is hard but that isn't a reason not to do so.  Because some early companies failed to bring EVs to market, should we just abandon EVs?  No, try and try again until you get it right. 

I think ewaste is ultimately more expensive for consumers and that higher prices for quality goods that last longer is more economical and environmental, both which are current trends.  Given the current change in global supply chain locations, moving manufacturing out of China for western companies, the time to design modern factories with modern products is very good right now. 

Yes, UEFI could use an upgrade as well. 

Yes, it would be expensive, but as I said, if there is already a plan to move factories and supply chains out of China the cost is already massive, so why not spend incrementally more for modern, cost effective and environmental product design?

I think much of your arguments "it's too hard/expensive" were also reasons why people didn't invest in Framework.

[Middcore]

15 minutes ago, ToboRobot said:

I think much of your arguments "it's too hard/expensive" were also reasons why people didn't invest in Framework.

 

Framework makes a niche product with features the majority of the market doesn't want.

 

 

[Needfuldoer]

2 hours ago, ToboRobot said:

No, UEFI is still vastly outdated and needs a real modern solution. 

What's outdated about it? What would be different about a "real modern solution"?

 

2 hours ago, ToboRobot said:

The section of your motherboard that has power input from the PSU and then manages the voltages for different parts etc (including VRM) are part of the big motherboard.  If you can make this a separate PCB with a fused connection to the core compute etc. 

We're actually seeing the opposite happen with ATX12VO. Why put power rails that practically nothing uses in every power supply design?

 

Usurping an existing standard will always be an uphill battle even on a good day, because you're fighting an entire market's worth of inertia. If a new product can't provide a tangible improvement to make up for the fact that it's incompatible with everything that came before, it's a non-starter.

 

2 hours ago, ToboRobot said:

Increased upfront cost, for long term repairability.

For better or worse, the first half of that sentence matters far more to your average consumer than the second.

[igormp]

2 hours ago, ToboRobot said:

No, UEFI is still vastly outdated and needs a real modern solution. 

How so? It's pretty much an OS on itself, and even is a valid compile target. I don't see how/why one would do it different, specially without adding even more bloat to it.

 

2 hours ago, ToboRobot said:

The section of your motherboard that has power input from the PSU and then manages the voltages for different parts etc (including VRM) are part of the big motherboard.  If you can make this a separate PCB with a fused connection to the core compute etc.  Increased upfront cost, for long term repairability.

That'd be the opposite of the 12VO idea that I liked, would add more inefficiency and make things way more complex. I'm pretty much against such repairability in detriment of cost and efficiency. But again, my opinion, don't think there's much else for us here, let's just agree to disagree.

 

2 hours ago, ToboRobot said:

Yes, UEFI could use an upgrade as well. 

I'd still like to hear your reasoning behind this.

2 hours ago, ToboRobot said:

Yes, it would be expensive, but as I said, if there is already a plan to move factories and supply chains out of China the cost is already massive, so why not spend incrementally more for modern, cost effective and environmental product design?

Tbh I actually se a trend where people are not looking for repairability nor upgradeability, opting for those mini-PCs (mac mini like) instead. I'm even recommend it to some people that I know, great value and no headaches.