@linus can we get a review of the Framework laptop 16 with video upgrade module?

[Friiar]

Hey Linus,

 

we need a laptop review on your buddies at framework. The new Framework 16 has been out for a bit. With the video module upgrade it sounds like a mid tier gaming laptop, so that is my question to you. so how does the DIY entry level cpu with the video card upgrade for $2500 US compare to pre mades like MSI stealth and so forth for gamers.

 

Ryzen™ 7 7840HS

ram 16x2

NVMW WD 1TB

win 11 pro

Graphics Module (AMD Radeon™ RX 7700S)

180 watt gaming power supply

$ 2505 US with modules and other stuff.

 

Friiar

[filpo]

I'd expect that they're working on it. But Linus himself wouldn't reply to something like this in this topic 

You have to put it in the 'thread for Linus Tech Tips Video Suggestions' 

[Qyygle]

The 16 is still in pre-order, why do you think it's been out for a bit right now?

Q4 just started and batch 1's aren't even close to shipping until late Q4 probably.

 

I can tell you right now though, the Framework won't provide the kind of performance/dollar an MSI or Clevo will give you. Their focus is on other aspects, not raw performance bang for buck. For $2,500 you can get a lot more powerful machine than the Framework 16's spec will do. You're comparing repairability/sustainability against mass market/economy of scale here.

 

If you want rough numbers, go look up reviews for laptops with 7600S or last gen 6700 gpus, then add 10-20% to the results. Expect something around laptop 4060 performance basically.

[ixit]

I'll readily admit that I haven't run any sample numbers, but Qyygle, I'm inclined to respectfully disagree.  With a caveat: I like Framework financially as a multi-generation device platform.

 

While Asus, MSI, or Clevo and other firms can deliver a product at a low price point, my incentive for purchasing the Framework laptop as an economic choice is for the re-up.  As someone who used to run IT in the construction management industry, I can definitely tell you that there are folks in that and other business verticals who want to be able to streamline low-stress, low cost upgrades - locally, remotely, or with your onsite person who is "technically inclined"...but not skilled.  Framework has a massive total addressable market once it proves out a second platform and is both prepared and financially situated to move beyond enthusiasts and prosumers into business compute at scale.  In fact, it was this basis of upgradeability that made me actually plan to get a Framework 13 laptop from work for a job I'd interviewed for earlier this year, but ultimately I accepted a different job offer that forced me into a different machine.

• It's a lot easier to justify repairs when you can actually do them.
• Its even easier to justify upgrades when you can actually do them.
• Although front line managers may disagree, an enterprise procurement department is significantly more likely to spend on an upgradable platform
• Framework is building a track record, and that will be essential to breaking into enterprise sales, since promises < proof.
• Framework is likely to enjoy economies of scale on both sustained profit margin (no need to mark down if things are still selling too fast) as well as improved manufacturing which can enable the company to show big business that they are here to stay - another platform sales prerequisite.  This further empowers them to achieve their mission statement.

OK, the expert moment passed, back to the real world.  I'd buy this for me because I'm interested in the next generation.  I'll also note that I didn't buy the GPU, so for me this is just an expenssive laptop.  But next year?  HDR!  And make it a touchscreen!  The pinout capability is (reportedly) there.  Upgrade my CPU next year for the reportedly massive gains that the 7000 gen will bring?  I expect to be able to do that.  With that being essentially a mobo swap, I could then evaluate for myself what's important:

• Memory?  A new mobo likely supports faster memory as well.  I've looked at that fancy new memory spec Dell and Samsung (IIRC) are throwing around, and maybe Framework could even adopt this within the existing frame - new mobo, new components to fit around it, new bottom chassis cover and...go.
• GPU?  Well of course.  And someday, on this or other platforms, AI accelerators or other devices for devs with specific needs.
• Storage expansion?  All the falling DRAM prices shall be mine!
• Keep my money in the bank.

TLDR, My incentive is that my total cost of ownership (TCO) is anticipated to be lower over the lifetime of the frame, even a short lifetime.  I'll probably approach or exceed break even on the second generation of CPU, and I'll still have the first gen CPU package to be repurposed (likely) or resold at a loss (we'll see...).  Framework rackmount enclosure for enthusiasts?  Bueller?  That's a yes for me, especially if it packs 2 or 4 of those high performance per watt units.

[Qyygle]

18 hours ago, ixit said:

Spoiler

I'll readily admit that I haven't run any sample numbers, but Qyygle, I'm inclined to respectfully disagree.  With a caveat: I like Framework financially as a multi-generation device platform.

 

While Asus, MSI, or Clevo and other firms can deliver a product at a low price point, my incentive for purchasing the Framework laptop as an economic choice is for the re-up.  As someone who used to run IT in the construction management industry, I can definitely tell you that there are folks in that and other business verticals who want to be able to streamline low-stress, low cost upgrades - locally, remotely, or with your onsite person who is "technically inclined"...but not skilled.  Framework has a massive total addressable market once it proves out a second platform and is both prepared and financially situated to move beyond enthusiasts and prosumers into business compute at scale.  In fact, it was this basis of upgradeability that made me actually plan to get a Framework 13 laptop from work for a job I'd interviewed for earlier this year, but ultimately I accepted a different job offer that forced me into a different machine.

• It's a lot easier to justify repairs when you can actually do them.
• Its even easier to justify upgrades when you can actually do them.
• Although front line managers may disagree, an enterprise procurement department is significantly more likely to spend on an upgradable platform
• Framework is building a track record, and that will be essential to breaking into enterprise sales, since promises < proof.
• Framework is likely to enjoy economies of scale on both sustained profit margin (no need to mark down if things are still selling too fast) as well as improved manufacturing which can enable the company to show big business that they are here to stay - another platform sales prerequisite.  This further empowers them to achieve their mission statement.

OK, the expert moment passed, back to the real world.  I'd buy this for me because I'm interested in the next generation.  I'll also note that I didn't buy the GPU, so for me this is just an expenssive laptop.  But next year?  HDR!  And make it a touchscreen!  The pinout capability is (reportedly) there.  Upgrade my CPU next year for the reportedly massive gains that the 7000 gen will bring?  I expect to be able to do that.  With that being essentially a mobo swap, I could then evaluate for myself what's important:

• Memory?  A new mobo likely supports faster memory as well.  I've looked at that fancy new memory spec Dell and Samsung (IIRC) are throwing around, and maybe Framework could even adopt this within the existing frame - new mobo, new components to fit around it, new bottom chassis cover and...go.
• GPU?  Well of course.  And someday, on this or other platforms, AI accelerators or other devices for devs with specific needs.
• Storage expansion?  All the falling DRAM prices shall be mine!
• Keep my money in the bank.

TLDR, My incentive is that my total cost of ownership (TCO) is anticipated to be lower over the lifetime of the frame, even a short lifetime.  I'll probably approach or exceed break even on the second generation of CPU, and I'll still have the first gen CPU package to be repurposed (likely) or resold at a loss (we'll see...).  Framework rackmount enclosure for enthusiasts?  Bueller?  That's a yes for me, especially if it packs 2 or 4 of those high performance per watt units.

 

I assume you're talking about the 13" here, since the 16"s already come with 7000 series AMD chips? The 13" starting at around $1000 I think is the sweet spot for FM. It's competing in the ultrabook/subnotebook space, where a quality screen and chassis already put it right on price for it's main competitors. The upgradability and customizability are the reasons to choose it over more 'refined' machines, but it's honestly already most of the way there, and I'd recommend a FM13" to anyone looking for a basic new laptop.

 

The 16" however is competing in a much more difficult range, and until FM manages economies of scale, from a pure price-performance comparison, it will lose against what's already on the market. $2500 as he quoted for his config is 3080ti-4080 territory from a price standpoint, and this is offering 4060 level GPU performance at best. The difference here can be almost +100% better GPU performance, and I'm not even putting the 4080 on this comparison:

 

Unless you care for the repairability and modularity of the FM, I find it hard to recommend the 16" in terms of Price-Performance if you compare to MSI's, ASUS's, Dell, Lenovo, etc. at the $2500 price point. Let's say you get a GPU upgrade in a year or 2 even, lets say they drop a GPU module bringing you even to 4070-4080 or whatever's relevant at that time. Estimating a cost of say, $500-600 for that module, you're now at $3000+ and only now matching the $2500 machine you could've been using this whole time.

 

That's why my point was, if you're looking for a gaming oriented comparison with other laptops on the market, you're going to be dissapointed. (like, 100%+ worse performance per $ level dissapointed) If your goal is to invest in a platform that you know will be reliable and easy to fix for a long time going forward, that's the reason to get this.