Not worth it, and no point to upgrade to Win 11.

[_Grid21]

I've had Windows 11 on my Dell Latitude E5450. And frankly, I don't get what the point of it is. It's just Windows 10 with a new skin. But otherwise, Windows 11 is pointless and I absolutely refuse to upgrade my main work station to Win 11. I even disabled my TPM on my motherboard because 1. You don't need it on, and 2. I will not let Microsoft dictate to me what I run or don't run, and 3. a lot of my DAW Plugins, and DAW most likely will not run with Windows 11. I also literally do not see any performance improvements whatsoever. Basically what this comes down to is the classic marketing and hype bullshit that Microsft is known for. Windows 10 is perfectly fine as is, and I honestly wish I had Win 10 LTS on my main workstation, which is a Ryzen 5950x, 64GB ram, and RTX 3060 12GB. Even if Windows 10 gets dropped for support, I am still not going to blow my perfectly fine install of windows 10 aways just because some big-wig says too. Please tell me I am not the only one who sees this and knows it's not worth it. 

[Alex Atkin UK]

5 minutes ago, _Grid21 said:

I've had Windows 11 on my Dell Latitude E5450. And frankly, I don't get what the point of it is. It's just Windows 10 with a new skin. But otherwise, Windows 11 is pointless and I absolutely refuse to upgrade my main work station to Win 11. I even disabled my TPM on my motherboard because 1. You don't need it on, and 2. I will not let Microsoft dictate to me what I run or don't run, and 3. a lot of my DAW Plugins, and DAW most likely will not run with Windows 11. I also literally do not see any performance improvements whatsoever. Basically what this comes down to is the classic marketing and hype bullshit that Microsft is known for. Windows 10 is perfectly fine as is, and I honestly wish I had Win 10 LTS on my main workstation, which is a Ryzen 5950x, 64GB ram, and RTX 3060 12GB. Even if Windows 10 gets dropped for support, I am still not going to blow my perfectly fine install of windows 10 aways just because some big-wig says too. Please tell me I am not the only one who sees this and knows it's not worth it. 

The whole point is most of the worthwhile changes on Windows 11 are in the underlying OS, so you wont "see" them.  Such as more efficient DirectStorage (which presumably will become apparent as more games use it).

When it comes to the UI I can't help but feel 11 is a huge downgrade, but I will continue to use it as security and gaming efficiency are important to me.  For normal desktop use, I'm purely a Linux guy anyway, so if I could I'd drop Windows entirely as it peaked at 7 IMO and has been downgrade after downgrade since.

[_Grid21]

2 minutes ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

The whole point is most of the worthwhile changes on Windows 11 are in the underlying OS, so you wont "see" them.  Such as more efficient DirectStorage (which presumably will become apparent as more games use it).

When it comes to the UI I can't help but feel 11 is a huge downgrade, but I will continue to use it as security and gaming efficiency are important to me.  For normal desktop use, I'm purely a Linux guy anyway, so if I could I'd drop Windows entirely as it peaked at 7 IMO and has been downgrade after downgrade since.

What I hate more about the whole situation, is the outright lying Microsoft fed us about Windows 10 being the last Windows and just continuing support for 10. And also because of my workflow, I can't go to Linux, I am bound to Win 10 which isn't bad, but 11 is useless for sure. I hate tech marketing for a lot of reasons. And what's worse and making me even LESS likely to go to 11 is the coming integration of A.i. which I ALSO a useless piece of tech and only good for 0.001% of the world. I am thinking of switching my laptop back to 10, but I also have some newer software installed on my 11 install right now I use. I only installed 11 on my E5450 just to trial test it on a system that wasn't mission critical. 

[Alex Atkin UK]

12 minutes ago, _Grid21 said:

What I hate more about the whole situation, is the outright lying Microsoft fed us about Windows 10 being the last Windows and just continuing support for 10. And also because of my workflow, I can't go to Linux, I am bound to Win 10 which isn't bad, but 11 is useless for sure. I hate tech marketing for a lot of reasons. And what's worse and making me even LESS likely to go to 11 is the coming integration of A.i. which I ALSO a useless piece of tech and only good for 0.001% of the world. I am thinking of switching my laptop back to 10, but I also have some newer software installed on my 11 install right now I use. I only installed 11 on my E5450 just to trial test it on a system that wasn't mission critical. 

I have to use Windows for gaming and AI upscaling, basically commercial software.  Kinda ironic given the AI upscaling software is based on open-source software, but its largely how it all fits together that is the tricky part, thus commercial software is more usable, especially given they train the models too which is an art form in itself and can take months.

I've always hated all the stuff added to Windows (and Smartphones + MacOS) to have the computer do things for you, its not how I work.  I don't do file indexing, I don't want to mess with meta data, I'd rather file everything where I know it is and what it is.  I don't want my OS search to go online, I want it to only search my local applications, etc.  So I'm right there with you on AI being a bad thing for the OS.  The only possibly exception is face detection to classify my photos, but if I want that I will install Nextcloud, I don't want it in my OS controlled by someone else.  This again is a reason I think things went downhill after Windows 7 as at least you could easily disable the few things it did I didn't like, since its gotten harder and harder to do so.

 

I can understand why Windows 11 exists though, you'd have been in a much worse place if they instead had made all these changes to Windows 10 (which lets be honest, its basically what 11 is).  They called it Windows 11 to show that they made big changes and so they could have a cut-off point for old CPUs, which would have had an even worse reaction if it had just been an update for 10.

[_Grid21]

2 minutes ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

I have to use Windows for gaming and AI upscaling, basically commercial software.  Kinda ironic given the AI upscaling software is based on open-source software, but its largely how it all fits together that is the tricky part, thus commercial software is more usable, especially given they train the models too which is an art form in itself and can take months.

I've always hated all the stuff added to Windows (and Smartphones + MacOS) to have the computer do things for you, its not how I work.  I don't do file indexing, I don't want to mess with meta data, I'd rather file everything where I know it is and what it is.  I don't want my OS search to go online, I want it to only search my local applications, etc.  So I'm right there with you on AI being a bad thing for the OS.  The only possibly exception is face detection to classify my photos, but if I want that I will install Nextcloud, I don't want it in my OS controlled by someone else.  This again is a reason I think things went downhill after Windows 7 as at least you could easily disable the few things it did I didn't like, since its gotten harder and harder to do so.

Well, thankfully I used WinAeroTwerker and PowerToys on both my Windows installs. So my install doesn't do an online search when I use search for the computer. What I hate more, is that there isn't a lot we can do about it, and I don't see Microsoft listening to anyone but their own echo chamber. So my question is, once windows 10 support drops, what am I supposed to do? Just keep using it? And hope for the best? 

[BankHealthy]

As most members have pointed out Windows 11 has more under the hood upgrades. Personally, Windows 11 is great since it forced me to fully switch back to using Linux on my machines. Never looking back.

 

Stay with Windows 10 as long as you could. I think getting an LTSC just might be worth it.

 

Another option is to install Linux and run Windows 10 on a VM.

[_Grid21]

4 minutes ago, BankHealthy said:

As most members have pointed out Windows 11 has more under the hood upgrades. Personally, Windows 11 is great since it forced me to fully switch back to using Linux on my machines. Never looking back.

 

Stay with Windows 10 as long as you could. I think getting an LTSC just might be worth it.

 

Another option is to install Linux and run Windows 10 on a VM.

I don't know if software like FL Studio and VST/VST3 plugins would play very nicely or not. I've also locked my Windows 11 on my laptop to 21H2 using Group Policy. Do you know how to switch Windows 10 to LTSC with my current install? I don't want to switch by reinstalling. I wonder how many users Microsoft is gonna have to lose before they revert back and listen to people. 

[BankHealthy]

1 minute ago, _Grid21 said:

I don't know if software like FL Studio and VST/VST3 plugins would play very nicely or not. I've also locked my Windows 11 on my laptop to 21H2 using Group Policy. Do you know how to switch Windows 10 to LTSC with my current install? I don't want to switch by reinstalling. I wonder how many users Microsoft is gonna have to lose before they revert back and listen to people. 

On LTSC, I would imagine it's only a key upgrade. LTSC does not seem to be different from retail Windows 10 architecturally speaking.

 

My bet is that Windows 12 would be a better version of Windows. LOL. It's kind of a Tick-Tock cycle for Microsoft. Meanwhile, Linux is getting more and more palatable for users ever day.

[_Grid21]

3 minutes ago, BankHealthy said:

On LTSC, I would imagine it's only a key upgrade. LTSC does not seem to be different from retail Windows 10 architecturally speaking.

 

My bet is that Windows 12 would be a better version of Windows. LOL. It's kind of a Tick-Tock cycle for Microsoft. Meanwhile, Linux is getting more and more palatable for users ever day.

Do you know where I can get a Windows LTSC key for cheap? Sorry, I know this is getting off-topic, but in an effort to beat getting on board with windows 11. I am willing to try getting an LTSC key. 

[BankHealthy]

10 minutes ago, _Grid21 said:

Do you know where I can get a Windows LTSC key for cheap? Sorry, I know this is getting off-topic, but in an effort to beat getting on board with windows 11. I am willing to try getting an LTSC key. 

I'm not sure where exactly to buy one. But I did a bit of Google search and there seems to be some places online that sell 'em.

[_Grid21]

11 minutes ago, BankHealthy said:

I'm not sure where exactly to buy one. But I did a bit of Google search and there seems to be some places online that sell 'em.

Better question, what the hell was Microsoft thinking going back on their word of "the Last Windows" and then just made Windows 11 anyway?

[BankHealthy]

5 minutes ago, _Grid21 said:

Better question, what the hell was Microsoft thinking going back on their word of "the Last Windows" and then just made Windows 11 anyway?

Ahh well, I also thought it was a gutsy move for Microsoft to proclaim that Windows 10 is the last version. I guess we'll never know what the C-level executives in that company think. LOL!

 

If I'm being honest, I think they had to make a new version of Windows to make proper changes to accommodate the new Intel (P and E cores) architecture. But that's just a theory...

[_Grid21]

3 minutes ago, BankHealthy said:

Ahh well, I also thought it was a gutsy move for Microsoft to proclaim that Windows 10 is the last version. I guess we'll never know what the C-level executives in that company think. LOL!

 

If I'm being honest, I think they had to make a new version of Windows to make proper changes to accommodate the new Intel (P and E cores) architecture. But that's just a theory...

Frankly, what's also gross about this, you can tell this was one big marketing stunt when MS and Intel PUSHED that if you want Intel's new CPUs you HAD to upgrade. You know someone is getting a LOT of money when you're forced to upgrade just to play with shiny new toys. Glad I went with AMD. But after all this non-sense, I find tech completely boring now. I am glad I wasn't the only one really ticked off with how stupid Win 11 really is. 

EDIT: Also, this is mainly why a lot of Media companies use Mac, to get around this bullshit from MS, but Apple isn't also guilty of these practices too.

[BankHealthy]

2 minutes ago, _Grid21 said:

Frankly, what's also gross about this, you can tell this was one big marketing stunt when MS and Intel PUSHED that if you want Intel's new CPUs you HAD to upgrade. You know someone is getting a LOT of money when you're forced to upgrade just to play with shiny new toys. Glad I went with AMD. But after all this non-sense, I find tech completely boring now. I am glad I wasn't the only one really ticked off with how stupid Win 11 really is. 

EDIT: Also, this is mainly why a lot of Media companies use Mac, to get around this bullshit from MS, but Apple isn't also guilty of these practices too.

Yeah. I primarily use AMD on my machines too. Mac has a cycle though, if you bought into Apple's computers, you're also forced to eventually upgrade. Though there's now Linux for Macs so there's an alternative a least.

[_Grid21]

1 hour ago, BankHealthy said:

Yeah. I primarily use AMD on my machines too. Mac has a cycle though, if you bought into Apple's computers, you're also forced to eventually upgrade. Though there's now Linux for Macs so there's an alternative a least.

Will it actually get to a point where EVERYONE uses Linux and Apple and MS just suddenly one day lose a HUGE userbase? 

[BankHealthy]

27 minutes ago, _Grid21 said:

Will it actually get to a point where EVERYONE uses Linux and Apple and MS just suddenly one day lose a HUGE userbase? 

 

No. Linux is really not for everyone. It's more for people who are so fed up with Windows and MacOS that they are willing to learn and unlearn some old computing habits. Everyone is free to try Linux out, but not everyone will like it. That's how I see it, at least on the desktop side of things.

[Alex Atkin UK]

37 minutes ago, BankHealthy said:

 

No. Linux is really not for everyone. It's more for people who are so fed up with Windows and MacOS that they are willing to learn and unlearn some old computing habits. Everyone is free to try Linux out, but not everyone will like it. That's how I see it, at least on the desktop side of things.

MacOS is absolutely horrible to use if you're used to any other OS and is potentially worse than Windows when it comes to snooping and "our way or the highway" thinking.  Its all designed around training you into their very specific way of doing things that makes every other OS seem confusing (despite them actually being easier to use).

 

I've used a lot of OS over the years and MacOS still feels the least intuitive.  On the surface it feels exactly like it did 20 years ago, which is not a good thing as every other OS got easier to use.  Of course in reality it has changed, but a lot of its functionality is cryptic and requires extensive learning to do simple things that should be easy to figure out from the UI alone.  Even then it has stupid issues like poor performance with a NAS unless its running MacOS itself.

 

Going from Windows to Linux on the other hand, if you use KDE Plasma is kinda easier than going Windows to Windows these days.  Its how I got into Linux as the learning curve even 15 years ago wasn't that hard, at least when it comes to the UI, and its consistently gotten better.  I even moved my mom over as the changes in Windows already confused her, so it wasn't any harder to get used to.  The only concession was she still runs Paintshop Pro 7 in WINE.

 

The reason Windows used to be so easy is the UI remained mostly the same for a long time, now they radically change it in stupid ways so KDE feels more like Windows 7 than Windows 10/11 do.

[BankHealthy]

1 hour ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

MacOS is absolutely horrible to use if you're used to any other OS and is potentially worse than Windows when it comes to snooping and "our way or the highway" thinking.  Its all designed around training you into their very specific way of doing things that makes every other OS seem confusing (despite them actually being easier to use).

 

I've used a lot of OS over the years and MacOS still feels the least intuitive.  On the surface it feels exactly like it did 20 years ago, which is not a good thing as every other OS got easier to use.  Of course in reality it has changed, but a lot of its functionality is cryptic and requires extensive learning to do simple things that should be easy to figure out from the UI alone.  Even then it has stupid issues like poor performance with a NAS unless its running MacOS itself.

 

Going from Windows to Linux on the other hand, if you use KDE Plasma is kinda easier than going Windows to Windows these days.  Its how I got into Linux as the learning curve even 15 years ago wasn't that hard, at least when it comes to the UI, and its consistently gotten better.  I even moved my mom over as the changes in Windows already confused her, so it wasn't any harder to get used to.  The only concession was she still runs Paintshop Pro 7 in WINE.

 

The reason Windows used to be so easy is the UI remained mostly the same for a long time, now they radically change it in stupid ways so KDE feels more like Windows 7 than Windows 10/11 do.

 

Plasma is just amazing. Personally, Linux is really good. I use LMDE 6 now on my main machine coming from Arch with XFCE or KDE and even MXLinux with ICEWM. I've started my 9 year old daughter to use Arch but now she uses Linux Mint. Later on, I will teach her how Linux works in the background along with some basic programming skills.

 

I agree that Macs tend to be counter intuitive. It's almost as restrictive as Windows 11 if not more. But a lot of my programmer friends love it. I, on the other hand, would rather use a ThinkPad running Linux. But that's just personal preference.

 

 

 

[E-waste]

I am really digging this thread!  Microsoft started out by being the opposite of both Apple and UNIX (UNIX used to be proprietary and only worked on specific machines).

 

Microsoft allowed you to take just about any computer and run Windows.  Now they want to very arbitrarily ... pressure you to upgrade your hardware, even stuff from 2018!  I think even Windows 10 does this with highly questionable "unsupported cpu" messages.

 

Apple is quite bad, though I do like the UNIX / BSD base, it's like calling Android Linux.  Apple and Microsoft both don't care at all about e-waste and Linux is the only system left to help out.  Unfortunately, i586 support just got dropped from the kernel, and many distributions do not have 32-bit support except for software programs, not the running system.  I think this is a horrible step, as 32-bit hardware is still capable for everyday use, and buying new hardware create way more waste, human-powered hand-dug mineral mining, abusive factory work, and shipping pollution than a 120w computer ever will!

 

Besides, China and India are the largest coal-burning contributers to climate change, and buying a new computer causes those factories to run more and supports the demand to keep them running.  So buying new is basically far more wasteful than using a 25 year-old computer for several hours a day.

 

Apple has more than enough resources to compete in repairability with both Fairphone and Framework, but actively and harmfully choose not to do so.  Why?  I can only guess greed, because I am certain the people that work for Apple have a great understanding of technology and how it all gets created.

 

There MUST be more than money powered Apple, but it seems they have lost their souls.  Why does money create so muxh of a pull that the well being of other human beings is no longer any thought at all!  How does this occur in the human mind?  Is it a psychological issue, or is it a temporary distraction?  What is it?

 

Apple could right this very second, release an iPhone, iPad, iMac and apple TV box with all repairability and replacement parts and openly market right-to-repair and get a huge congratulations for it and wipe out ALL competition because everyone loves Apple.

 

But they don't!  Why?  Would they not massively increase their user base once this happened, I cannot possibly imagine that they'd lose much profit, in fact they would probably gain more from the higher number of customers.  Microsoft could offer to repair an old Microsoft Surface 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7, all with the BIOS / firmware bug as an update usually bricks these devices.  They could simply offer a service to reload the BIOS on these device for a $150 fee.

 

But they don't!

 

Because they care so much about profit that the well being of the human race and the people that are digging the ground literally with their bare hands to make Microsoft the billion dollar company that it is, and Apple and Google and Samsung and Dell and all the rest I didn't mention, don't mean shit to these companies.

 

But yet they could get world-wide praise for offering completely repairable devices and replacement parts, and they could LITERALLY do it overnight.

 

So why not?

 

So all tech companies are horrible monsters of human beings knowing the harm they are causing both mentally to the people mining and assembling, and simple could literally care less, so let's support companies that are trying to make a difference.

 

Let's all buy older smartphones and put LineageOS on them, and if software support allows, run Linux on your current systems and let's reduce the market share of Windows, they no longer deserve their position, wanting a machine with a CPU from 2018 to be unsupported.  That is lunacy and greed!

 

Mac could choose to include the already existing hardware support of the current running system in a software upgrade but they purposely remove the existing software drivers so that you seemingly have to change devices to run the new system.  Projects like legacy patcher expose how full of shit Apple is with software support and I hope the efforts for Linux on M1 macs really take off and Linux use continues to quickly increase!

 

Go Linux, maybe it can help save the world, at least the technology waste issues.

[Alan G]

Why do these threads reappear every month or so?  If people don't like Windows 11 don't use it.  If people want to use Linux, go right ahead.  I've upgraded all three of our home PCs to Windows 11 several months ago and there were no issues at all.  Even my techno-phobe wife is fine with Windows 11. 

 

for those of us who run Adobe photo editing software, Linux is not an option at all as Adobe has not ported it over.