surround sound

[Greenbell7]

I have a 4k onn roku tv with an HDMI arc port. do I need a special tv to get surround sound out of it, or do I just need to plug in and set up the sound system to it?

[lyricalosu]

do you have a home theatre with either 5.1 or 7.1? you would also need a amplifier if you have speakers. 

[Greenbell7]

2 hours ago, mrekk said:

do you have a home theatre with either 5.1 or 7.1? you would also need a amplifier if you have speakers. 

I was planning on getting the soundbar in the link below, I already have the rear speakers for it. I would have had everything set up but the cheaper variant wasn't working for me and I decided that the more expensive one with an ARC HDMI port might work better.

[HumdrumPenguin]

On 2/15/2022 at 1:14 PM, Greenbell7 said:

I was planning on getting the soundbar in the link below, I already have the rear speakers for it. I would have had everything set up but the cheaper variant wasn't working for me and I decided that the more expensive one with an ARC HDMI port might work better.

A soundbar will definitely benefit from eARC ports. If you can decouple it from the furniture with pads, you'd also get a better sound out of it.

[Greenbell7]

On 2/15/2022 at 3:14 PM, Greenbell7 said:

I was planning on getting the soundbar in the link below, I already have the rear speakers for it. I would have had everything set up but the cheaper variant wasn't working for me and I decided that the more expensive one with an ARC HDMI port might work better.

Forgot the link. AmazonSmile: SAMSUNG 3.1ch A650 A Series Soundbar - Dolby 5.1/ DTS Virtual: X (HW-A650, 2021 Model) : Electronics

[Greenbell7]

7 hours ago, HumdrumPenguin said:

A soundbar will definitely benefit from eARC ports. If you can decouple it from the furniture with pads, you'd also get a better sound out of it.

Could you give me a link to some pads so I'll know what you are talking about, please?

[JackieRoets]

On 2/15/2022 at 8:58 PM, mrekk said:

do you have a home theatre with either 5.1 or 7.1? you would also need a amplifier if you have speakers. 

I have a Sony 5.2 surround (cant remember the exact model) system. I use optical audio from my display to my system. I have to say that ever since I got my surround connected to a proper surround sound output I am never going back to 2 channel audio ever again

[HumdrumPenguin]

On 2/19/2022 at 5:50 AM, Greenbell7 said:

Could you give me a link to some pads so I'll know what you are talking about, please?

Sorry for the late response. I was thinking of IsoAcoustics ISO-PUCK mini. I quite like their Gaia series for tower speakers too.

 

https://isoacoustics.com/pro-audio-isolation-products/iso-puck-series/

[Greenbell7]

4 hours ago, HumdrumPenguin said:

Sorry for the late response. I was thinking of IsoAcoustics ISO-PUCK mini. I quite like their Gaia series for tower speakers too.

 

https://isoacoustics.com/pro-audio-isolation-products/iso-puck-series/

Thanks for the info. If the speakers sound ok without them, I might not get them but its good to know they exist.

[ShearMe]

On 2/19/2022 at 7:49 AM, Greenbell7 said:

Forgot the link. AmazonSmile: SAMSUNG 3.1ch A650 A Series Soundbar - Dolby 5.1/ DTS Virtual: X (HW-A650, 2021 Model) : Electronics

This system is not surround sound. 

[Greenbell7]

4 hours ago, ShearMe said:

This system is not surround sound. 

They said that I can connect it to a wireless rear speaker set for surround sound in the specs.

[ShearMe]

53 minutes ago, Greenbell7 said:

They said that I can connect it to a wireless rear speaker set for surround sound in the specs.

Then that would be surround sound yes. My bad. 

 

On 2/15/2022 at 12:49 PM, Greenbell7 said:

I have a 4k onn roku tv with an HDMI arc port. do I need a special tv to get surround sound out of it

Now to your original question... yes. To get surround sound through ARC, the TV must support "5.1 passthrough" capability.

If you have an eARC port then that capability is built in.

[Greenbell7]

16 hours ago, ShearMe said:

Then that would be surround sound yes. My bad. 

 

Now to your original question... yes. To get surround sound through ARC, the TV must support "5.1 passthrough" capability.

If you have an eARC port then that capability is built in.

The tv I have is the one in the link I included. I should be good right?

onn. 43” Class 4K UHD (2160P) LED Roku Smart TV HDR (100012584) - Walmart.com

[ShearMe]

7 hours ago, Greenbell7 said:

The tv I have is the one in the link I included. I should be good right?

onn. 43” Class 4K UHD (2160P) LED Roku Smart TV HDR (100012584) - Walmart.com

I don't know, you're gonna have to dig through the spec and see if it's ARC or eARC

[cmndr]

If you have a modern system (HDMI + ARC) you can get surround sound in 2 main ways.

1. all in one system (usually a sound bar)
2. AVR + passive speakers.

Option 1 is idiot proof but usually suboptimal (ideally you have two speakers in the front that are spread out 8-12' apart to get good stereo separation/imaging). Option 2 generally gets you better sound but the set up is a bit more involved.

For option 2 the bare minimum is pretty much 2x front speakers, 2x side speakers and an AVR. The front speakers matter more. Adding a subwoofer HELPS with low frequency sounds.

/r/budgetaudiophile and r/HTBuyingGuides have solid advice at varying price levels. I usually go craigslist hunting and go for the cheapest SVS subwoofers I can find. The cheapest used AVR with HDMI ARC support will also probably work "well enough." side speakers don't matter a ton. For the main L+R speakers Emotiva B1+, ELAC Debut 2 5.2, JBL 530 are all around $250ish and image well enough that you can get away without a center channel if you aren't sitting too far off center (if you are then you want a center channel). The JBL A130 has good reviews but there's some evidence that they changed some parts out in a later revision making it worse.

 

 

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With that said the 3.1 system you linked to is probably going to be "meh" overall. It's not surround though it'll be better than your TV's built in speakers by far. Some of it is just the nature of sound bars (hard to get good stereo imaging when the woofers are so close to each other and often cancel out each other's sound wave a la comb filtering)

The absolute cheapest usable thing - Klipsch Promedia 2.1 (current $64 at walmart - check slickdeals). It works. It's not great but probably similar overall quality of experience to the samsung 3.1, though different).

If you want to assemble stuff, with the later idea of adding on more and building out a full system consider the below:

For a lot of people a decent 2.1 system will work VERY well and you might even be able to convince yourself at times that the sound wraps around you.

A very entry level 2.1 set up for around $330 (cheapest AVR you can find for $50ish, $15ish worth of speaker wire, $10 subwoofer cable, $100ish Dayton subwoofer, whatever is on a shortlist of "good" speakers that's on sale instead of 2x what it should be going for[lots of companies charge $300+ and then discount to $100-150 for 3 months a year] or can be found on craigslist for pennies on the dollar). Audio gear does NOT hold its value well (huge price drops used) but it usually lasts between 10-50 years.
 

Another option - an entry level 2.0 system (think JBL 530 @$240ish + Ayima A08 @$80ish). The speakers would be "good enough" to migrate to a bigger and better system if you ever feel like expanding and they go low enough that you could get away without a subwoofer for a while. 

 

 

[Greenbell7]

16 hours ago, cmndr said:

If you have a modern system (HDMI + ARC) you can get surround sound in 2 main ways.

1. all in one system (usually a sound bar)
2. AVR + passive speakers.

Option 1 is idiot proof but usually suboptimal (ideally you have two speakers in the front that are spread out 8-12' apart to get good stereo separation/imaging). Option 2 generally gets you better sound but the set up is a bit more involved.

For option 2 the bare minimum is pretty much 2x front speakers, 2x side speakers and an AVR. The front speakers matter more. Adding a subwoofer HELPS with low frequency sounds.

/r/budgetaudiophile and r/HTBuyingGuides have solid advice at varying price levels. I usually go craigslist hunting and go for the cheapest SVS subwoofers I can find. The cheapest used AVR with HDMI ARC support will also probably work "well enough." side speakers don't matter a ton. For the main L+R speakers Emotiva B1+, ELAC Debut 2 5.2, JBL 530 are all around $250ish and image well enough that you can get away without a center channel if you aren't sitting too far off center (if you are then you want a center channel). The JBL A130 has good reviews but there's some evidence that they changed some parts out in a later revision making it worse.

 

 

-----

With that said the 3.1 system you linked to is probably going to be "meh" overall. It's not surround though it'll be better than your TV's built in speakers by far. Some of it is just the nature of sound bars (hard to get good stereo imaging when the woofers are so close to each other and often cancel out each other's sound wave a la comb filtering)

The absolute cheapest usable thing - Klipsch Promedia 2.1 (current $64 at walmart - check slickdeals). It works. It's not great but probably similar overall quality of experience to the samsung 3.1, though different).

If you want to assemble stuff, with the later idea of adding on more and building out a full system consider the below:

For a lot of people a decent 2.1 system will work VERY well and you might even be able to convince yourself at times that the sound wraps around you.

A very entry level 2.1 set up for around $330 (cheapest AVR you can find for $50ish, $15ish worth of speaker wire, $10 subwoofer cable, $100ish Dayton subwoofer, whatever is on a shortlist of "good" speakers that's on sale instead of 2x what it should be going for[lots of companies charge $300+ and then discount to $100-150 for 3 months a year] or can be found on craigslist for pennies on the dollar). Audio gear does NOT hold its value well (huge price drops used) but it usually lasts between 10-50 years.
 

Another option - an entry level 2.0 system (think JBL 530 @$240ish + Ayima A08 @$80ish). The speakers would be "good enough" to migrate to a bigger and better system if you ever feel like expanding and they go low enough that you could get away without a subwoofer for a while. 

 

 

The manufacturer said on their website that You could get surround sound capabilities with a wireless rear speaker set, I did get that correct, did I? All I really wanted was one that isn't too expensive and that didn't require me to run wires to my rear speakers.

[cmndr]

1 hour ago, Greenbell7 said:

The manufacturer said on their website that You could get surround sound capabilities with a wireless rear speaker set, I did get that correct, did I? All I really wanted was one that isn't too expensive and that didn't require me to run wires to my rear speakers.

So if you went for that samsung kit, you'd need to buy a second add on kit for it. Out of the box it'd be a non-surround sound set up.

There are advantages to packages like Samsung offers here (it's idiot proof, wiring isn't a hassle, less time spent researching, etc.)
Having surround effects is NOT one of those advantages (unless you buy add on speakers separately).

 

I bit the audiophile bug and "did it the right way". It's very possible to be happy with something that's "adequate."

I still don't see WHY there aren't more speaker systems like Sony's HT-A9  kit (VERY good in many ways, but pricey)

 

-------
Generally speaking my opinion is that people shouldn't worry about having MORE speakers/sound sources until they have at least 2 GOOD speakers (and probably a subwoofer too). You have two ears. Two different sound sources, spread out get sound to both ears and can get you a pretty good sense of sound stage and presence (as in you can tell far forward or backwards something is coming from the speakers and SOMETIMES even feel as though sound is behind you a bit).

Soundbars don't really check that box. There's not enough room between the left and the right part to get good stereo separation (combing effect kicks in - some sound waves cancel out others, some sound waves amplify others). The woofers in soundbars are also tiny (so they can't do low-ish frequencies - so you'll only get frequencies above 120Hz or 150Hz coming from the bar and the rest goes to the subwoofer) so you lose out on SOME of that effect there (so from maybe 80Hz to 120/150Hz which is where a good chunk of rumbles/explosions/lower end of male-voices resides). (pick 2 of 3 - low distortion, low power use, small size)

Here's an entire guide on why to avoid soundbars unless you ABSOLUTELY have to.

 

[Greenbell7]

12 hours ago, cmndr said:

So if you went for that samsung kit, you'd need to buy a second add on kit for it. Out of the box it'd be a non-surround sound set up.

There are advantages to packages like Samsung offers here (it's idiot proof, wiring isn't a hassle, less time spent researching, etc.)
Having surround effects is NOT one of those advantages (unless you buy add on speakers separately).

 

I bit the audiophile bug and "did it the right way". It's very possible to be happy with something that's "adequate."

I still don't see WHY there aren't more speaker systems like Sony's HT-A9  kit (VERY good in many ways, but pricey)

 

-------
Generally speaking my opinion is that people shouldn't worry about having MORE speakers/sound sources until they have at least 2 GOOD speakers (and probably a subwoofer too). You have two ears. Two different sound sources, spread out get sound to both ears and can get you a pretty good sense of sound stage and presence (as in you can tell far forward or backwards something is coming from the speakers and SOMETIMES even feel as though sound is behind you a bit).

Soundbars don't really check that box. There's not enough room between the left and the right part to get good stereo separation (combing effect kicks in - some sound waves cancel out others, some sound waves amplify others). The woofers in soundbars are also tiny (so they can't do low-ish frequencies - so you'll only get frequencies above 120Hz or 150Hz coming from the bar and the rest goes to the subwoofer) so you lose out on SOME of that effect there (so from maybe 80Hz to 120/150Hz which is where a good chunk of rumbles/explosions/lower end of male-voices resides). (pick 2 of 3 - low distortion, low power use, small size)

Here's an entire guide on why to avoid soundbars unless you ABSOLUTELY have to.

 

Thanks for the Information. I already have the rear speakers when I bought the verson that was optical only. I do realize that this might not be the ideal solution but to get one that is would ether mean I'd have to run a lot of wires all over the place or spend a lot of money. This is many for my living room and not a home theater so I'm fine with it, I just wanted to know if I was wasting my time and money on the whole concept. 

[cmndr]

3 hours ago, Greenbell7 said:

Thanks for the Information. I already have the rear speakers when I bought the verson that was optical only. I do realize that this might not be the ideal solution but to get one that is would ether mean I'd have to run a lot of wires all over the place or spend a lot of money. This is many for my living room and not a home theater so I'm fine with it, I just wanted to know if I was wasting my time and money on the whole concept. 

Do you know if those side/rear speakers are compatible with the soundbar you are/were considering? For what it's worth I have SOME experience with Samsung sound bars (I bought one for my SO. She hated that it ruined her aesthetic... then she liked it after she compared the sound before/after, then she realized it wasn't that bad after she started working at a speaker company and she had like 20 speakers dumped at her home by a coworker - then she realized it was MEH after comparing to a "proper" 2.1 speaker set up).

What kind of speakers are they? Are they passive bookshelf/satellite speakers? If so then they'll need speaker wire and a receiver/amplifier to be used.

And you're definitely correct that there's a lot of potential for hassle and expense with audio gear. (my set up is $1000+ AVR I got for free from my girlfriend who worked at Audyssey(Denon subsidiary), $600 of front speakers[paid 220+tax before price hikes], $300[250+tax] of center speaker[that I don't even use], $650 [$480 before price hike] of side/surround speakers, $200ish of satellite speakers [bought as gift for father 10 years ago and I took them back] on the ceiling for height effects, $300 for a used subwoofer, $20 for used speaker mounts, $10 of foam pads, $30 of speaker wire, $10 subwoofer cable, $300 worth of acoustic panels, $50 of foam cubes for the corners). The sound is AWESOME if I'm in the dead center of my room and pretty good if I'm sitting at my desk. The flip of it is I paid something like $1700 not counting free stuff... and the free speakers I got from my dad were after I gave him $800 worth of gear for his own set up.


On my own end, I could have gotten 80% of the benefit (and way less complexity) from just two good L+R speakers and a budget subwoofer and a budget amplifier. That's like $240(JBL 530s) + $90(amp or budget AVR) +$120(sub) + 30(cables) and only had minimal wiring out near the front of the TV. If I were looking to cut costs further Sony SS-CS5 for $72 on sale(not worth it above $100ish) aren't too bad and can live on as side speakers if you ever wanted to upgrade to something better for the front.

[Greenbell7]

39 minutes ago, cmndr said:

Do you know if those side/rear speakers are compatible with the soundbar you are/were considering? For what it's worth I have SOME experience with Samsung sound bars (I bought one for my SO. She hated that it ruined her aesthetic... then she liked it after she compared the sound before/after, then she realized it wasn't that bad after she started working at a speaker company and she had like 20 speakers dumped at her home by a coworker - then she realized it was MEH after comparing to a "proper" 2.1 speaker set up).

What kind of speakers are they? Are they passive bookshelf/satellite speakers? If so then they'll need speaker wire and a receiver/amplifier to be used.

And you're definitely correct that there's a lot of potential for hassle and expense with audio gear. (my set up is $1000+ AVR I got for free from my girlfriend who worked at Audyssey(Denon subsidiary), $600 of front speakers[paid 220+tax before price hikes], $300[250+tax] of center speaker[that I don't even use], $650 [$480 before price hike] of side/surround speakers, $200ish of satellite speakers [bought as gift for father 10 years ago and I took them back] on the ceiling for height effects, $300 for a used subwoofer, $20 for used speaker mounts, $10 of foam pads, $30 of speaker wire, $10 subwoofer cable, $300 worth of acoustic panels, $50 of foam cubes for the corners). The sound is AWESOME if I'm in the dead center of my room and pretty good if I'm sitting at my desk. The flip of it is I paid something like $1700 not counting free stuff... and the free speakers I got from my dad were after I gave him $800 worth of gear for his own set up.


On my own end, I could have gotten 80% of the benefit (and way less complexity) from just two good L+R speakers and a budget subwoofer and a budget amplifier. That's like $240(JBL 530s) + $90(amp or budget AVR) +$120(sub) + 30(cables) and only had minimal wiring out near the front of the TV. If I were looking to cut costs further Sony SS-CS5 for $72 on sale(not worth it above $100ish) aren't too bad and can live on as side speakers if you ever wanted to upgrade to something better for the front.

This is the rear speaker set that I have. I could've had it bundled with the HDMI soundbar I'm looking at, but I bought the wrong soundbar.

AmazonSmile: SAMSUNG 9100S Rear Speaker Kit - Wireless (SWA-9100S, 2021 Model) : Electronics

[cmndr]

2 hours ago, Greenbell7 said:

This is the rear speaker set that I have. I could've had it bundled with the HDMI soundbar I'm looking at, but I bought the wrong soundbar.

AmazonSmile: SAMSUNG 9100S Rear Speaker Kit - Wireless (SWA-9100S, 2021 Model) : Electronics

So I'll ASSUME it will work with the sound bar you're considering (verify).

In that case it'll pretty much be "buy sound bar, plug into HDMI ARC, go." - you might need to jump through a hoop or two to pair the surrounds with the sound bar and you'll want to adjust their volume levels appropriately if it isn't done automatically.

I expect you'd be happy with it and it'd work "well enough"

Do be aware that if you don't already have speaker wire, that you'll need some for that kit.

Also be aware that speaker positioning MATTERS. This is VERY underrated.

In an ideal world you have your speakers/soundbars at close to ear level. Each speaker is pointed at your ears. And the speakers are angled in a sensible manner. Do note that the L+R speakers in the diagram are separated by some distance. Movies are made with the assumption that there IS stereo separation. It's possible that the sound bar routes a bit more of the sound to the surrounds  to compensate but I'm not sure of the specifics.

https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/5.1-virtual-speakers-setup-guide/#gref

[Greenbell7]

 

37 minutes ago, cmndr said:

So I'll ASSUME it will work with the sound bar you're considering (verify).

In that case it'll pretty much be "buy sound bar, plug into HDMI ARC, go."

I expect you'd be happy with it and it'd work "well enough"

Do be aware that if you don't already have speaker wire, that you'll need some for that kit.

Also be aware that speaker positioning MATTERS. This is VERY underrated.

In an ideal world you have your speakers/soundbars at close to ear level. Each speaker is pointed at your ears. And the speakers are angled in a sensible manner. Do note that the L+R speakers in the diagram are separated by some distance. Movies are made with the assumption that there IS stereo separation. It's possible that the sound bar routes a bit more of the sound to the surrounds  to compensate but I'm not sure of the specifics.

https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/5.1-virtual-speakers-setup-guide/#gref

Thanks for your help. So, it the system I'm considering will be good enough, but thanks for your advice about the rear speakers. I already have speaker wire and they are pretty well separated, but I did not know that it should be at ear level and pointed at my ears. I'll have to make sure that I get that changed (might is well get the most out of my relatively cheap setup). Again, thank you for your help; you've been very helpful. 

[cmndr]

1 hour ago, Greenbell7 said:

 

Thanks for your help. So, it the system I'm considering will be good enough, but thanks for your advice about the rear speakers. I already have speaker wire and they are pretty well separated, but I did not know that it should be at ear level and pointed at my ears. I'll have to make sure that I get that changed (might is well get the most out of my relatively cheap setup). Again, thank you for your help; you've been very helpful. 

One thing to be aware of - my advice for ear level on the side speakers COULD be off for your specific system. Older standards actually suggested slightly (1-2 feet) above ear level. The most important thing in most cases is to make sure the speakers are pointed at your ears.

Modern atmos configs changed the recommendations a bit and it's now suggested that you place everything but height/ceiling speakers at ear level. I tried to find placement info for your kit but didn't find good info unfortunately.

[Greenbell7]

On 3/5/2022 at 7:50 PM, cmndr said:

One thing to be aware of - my advice for ear level on the side speakers COULD be off for your specific system. Older standards actually suggested slightly (1-2 feet) above ear level. The most important thing in most cases is to make sure the speakers are pointed at your ears.

Modern atmos configs changed the recommendations a bit and it's now suggested that you place everything but height/ceiling speakers at ear level. I tried to find placement info for your kit but didn't find good info unfortunately.

That's alright, I guess I'll just have to experiment to see what works best for me.

[cmndr]

3 hours ago, Greenbell7 said:

That's alright, I guess I'll just have to experiment to see what works best for me.

The usual songs I use to test sound stage and imaging are:

Bubbles by Yosi Horikawa

Chocolate Chip Trip - Tool

In an "ideal" set up you should be able to hear where each item drops or where each drum beat comes from from left to right and front and back (as well as up/down).

Part of the warning against sound bars is that most soundbars can't do up/down[exception, units with upfiring/atmos support can get around this a bit] and left/right[hard for it to sound like a sound is bouncing from left to right in front of you, 20 feet apart if the drivers are only 4' apart] very well unless you're spending A LOT on one (and even then very pricey for what you get). You can expect to get the "the car or spaceship drove past me" effect from the surrounds though.

 

For what it's worth I have direct experience with THIS(older version of the same sound bar you're looking at with a slightly weaker subwoofer made for companies like costco) -https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-HW-R60C-Soundbar-Wireless-Subwoofer/dp/B07V2JVYJF

vs the cheapest AVR I could find + a pair of $72 Sony SS-CS5s. The super cheap bookshelf speakers did a lot better even when surrounds aren't in use.
Similar story with my own personal system when I disable my 4 surround speakers and 4 ceiling speakers. My 2x Emotiva B1+ do a VERY good job if I'm in the center of the room.

As an aside, I paid $130 for the soundbar on sale. I would NOT pay 2.5x that. I originally got it as a gift for me SO. I have since re-gifted it to her parents. My SO now has 2x Sony SS-CS5 speakers + 2x Dayton 652 speaker for surround + 1x SVS PB1000 as a subwoofer. She has a rug in front of her TV. The speaker wire goes under the rug. I might get her a prettier set of front speakers (Polk ES15 in white???) so she can have a set up that looks closer to an Ikea show room.