Is it ethical to sell older computers with Windows 11?

[PeterPorker3]

Hello, I run a small eBay store to make some money on the side, where I refurbish older systems, sometimes throw graphics cards into them if I can get them, and turn them into more modern and affordable systems for people without deep pockets. Windows 11's release has potentially presented me with a way to make my computers stand out as there are very few computers for sale with the new OS, however the minimum requirements pose an issue. My machines consist of Kaby Lake, Sky Lake, Haswell, and sometimes even Ivy Bridge CPUs, 95% of which are not on the supported list for Windows 11. Most of the machines I refurbish have a TPM, but I almost never find systems new enough to support TPM 2.0 like the requirements say. However true to their word, Microsoft still allows me to install Windows 11 on these older machines, however they have warned about there being significantly higher kernel crashes on the older CPUs and I have read they they might withhold Windows 11 updates and drives on unsupported systems. But putting this aside, I installed Windows 11 on a couple machines I had with Haswell CPUs and TPM 1.2 and I haven't had any issues setting them up or using programs on them. But due to the previously mentioned warnings given by Microsoft, I'm hesitant to ship these systems with Windows 11 installed, but if I could it would definitely make my systems stand out. So here are some of my questions:

Are the reports I was reading correct? Some of them where already about a month or two old and I haven't found a lot of recent discussion on the topic.

How much of these warnings are serious concerns and how much are just Microsoft being lazy with testing and not wanting to provide software warranties on older systems?

If the systems run fine with 11, would it be ethical to ship the systems with 11 installed after reading these reports?

Would TPM 1.2 be enough to satisfy the requirements? Microsoft's answer on this issue hasn't given me a clear answer.

And finally, how likely do you think people will buy a refurbished computer based on it having Windows 11? Is this worth the trouble?

I wanted to get as many perspectives on this as possible. Maybe there was news out there that I missed. Thanks in advanced for your Insight!

[GoodBytes]

You have to follow Windows 11 license agreement and other licensed requirements

 

Microsoft does have a site to handle reports of sellers not in compliance or selling non genuine licenses of Windows. You can also have the police  go after you. Like this story, related to a repair shop including Windows with computers that already has a license (by from OEM):

https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-facts-about-a-recent-counterfeiting-case-brought-by-the-u-s-government/

 

So it's all complicated, if you want to move forward, I would seek legal advice from a lawyer first.

 

Also, you may be held  responsible if Microsoft doesn't provide security updates for incompatible systems, including future versions of Windows 11. 

 

All to say, you are asking for legal trouble. Seek legal advice before proceeding, is my advice. 

[linkboy]

10 would be a much better option, as it's supported until 2025, and will run on these computers perfectly fine.

 

Either that, or put something like Zorin or Linux Mint, Linux distros that are more user friendly towards Windows users.

 

I'd be pissed if I bought a computer, only to find out it was running an unsupported OS and might not receive any updates (or the potential for the updates to break something), and have no recourse for support.

[PeterPorker3]

1 minute ago, GoodBytes said:

You have to follow Windows 11 license agreement and other licensed requirements

 

Microsoft does have a site to handle reports of sellers not in compliance or selling non genuine licenses of Windows. You can also have the police  go after you. Like this story, related to a repair shop including Windows with computers that already has a license (by from OEM):

https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-facts-about-a-recent-counterfeiting-case-brought-by-the-u-s-government/

 

So it's all complicated, if you want to move forward, I would seek legal advice from a lawyer first.

 

Also, you may be held  responsible if Microsoft doesn't provide security updates for incompatible systems, including future versions of Windows 11. 

 

All to say, you are asking for legal trouble. Seek legal advice before proceeding, is my advice. 

Does running Windows 11 on unsupported hardware violate the license agreement?

 

I mean I don't sell computers with unactivated Windows, I always get keys for them before I sell, but usually the computers I get already have Windows 7, 8 or 10 keys on them which can be used to activate Windows 11. And it's not like this is a big operation or anything, I have on average 5 listing up at a time. The cost of seeing a lawyer for such a small operation would completely blow out any profit I get from this, so it doesn't make sense for me. Also, the link you posted was refering to importing counterfeit keys, which is not an activity I partake in, so this seems like an extremely different scenario.

[PeterPorker3]

7 minutes ago, linkboy said:

10 would be a much better option, as it's supported until 2025, and we'll run on these computers perfectly fine.

 

Either that, or put something like Zorin or Linux Mint.

 

I'd be pissed if I bought a computer, only to find out it was running an unsupported OS and night not receive any updates (or the potential for the updates to break things), and have no recourse for support.

Yea as of right now until more testing is done I have no plans to switch from Windows 10. As much as I would love to load linux instead (I actually use Linux on my main PC), it would significantly decrease the value of the system, especially if its a gaming PC. It's just not appealing to people who want to buy a computer and have it work the way they would expect.

I definitely get the last point you made, I would be mad as well. However one thing I'm kinda wondering about is Microsoft has threatened to stop sending security updates in the past. In fact, I think they still say to this day that if you don't activate Windows you won't receive Windows updates (or something like that), however this has proven to not be the case as of the present. And is Microsoft saying they won't receive ANY updates at all, or only the specific updates that don't work because the CPU or TPM doesn't support newer features. Because if you can get all the other updates, I think that would probably be fair. You can't expect that your slightly out of date system will have ALL the latest security features, just like you you can't expect your older computer to support thunderbolt drives and NVMe booting. To me, as long as you can still get the other updates, it would be fine and understandable. But I'm curious what y'all think.

[linkboy]

58 minutes ago, PeterPorker3 said:

Yea as of right now until more testing is done I have no plans to switch from Windows 10. As much as I would love to load linux instead (I actually use Linux on my main PC), it would significantly decrease the value of the system, especially if its a gaming PC. It's just not appealing to people who want to buy a computer and have it work the way they would expect.

I definitely get the last point you made, I would be mad as well. However one thing I'm kinda wondering about is Microsoft has threatened to stop sending security updates in the past. In fact, I think they still say to this day that if you don't activate Windows you won't receive Windows updates (or something like that), however this has proven to not be the case as of the present. And is Microsoft saying they won't receive ANY updates at all, or only the specific updates that don't work because the CPU or TPM doesn't support newer features. Because if you can get all the other updates, I think that would probably be fair. You can't expect that your slightly out of date system will have ALL the latest security features, just like you you can't expect your older computer to support thunderbolt drives and NVMe booting. To me, as long as you can still get the other updates, it would be fine and understandable. But I'm curious what y'all think.

 

There's a lot of misconception regarding what Microsoft has said in regards to updates on unsupported hardware. They've never outright said no (but they've also never outright said yes), they've always spoke in vague terms (might not, not entitled to, etc.). Their entire stance has been, we don't recommend installing Windows 11 on unsupported hardware, we're not going to stop you, but we're also not going to offer any assistance if something goes wrong, you're very much on your own. 

 

We still don't know what's going to happen with the monthly cumulative updates or the yearly feature updates. The current build for Windows 11 is 22000.194, which is also the current beta channel build (and it was released about 3 weeks ago). Each build of Windows 11 is only going to be supported for two years (the build number refers to the 22000 number, not the number after the period), and after that, is unsupported on any computer.

 

For example, build 22000 will reach it's EOL date in October 2023.

 

Any unsupported computer will be stuck on an outdated OS, or will have to drop back down to Windows 10.

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, PeterPorker3 said:

Does running Windows 11 on unsupported hardware violate the license agreement?

As I said, I am not a layer, nor anyone here. Getting legal advice on a forum is extremally poor decision.

You should seek a lawyer expert in the field, to get your answer.

 

All I can say, and that is your first hurtle:

Well when you upgrade Windows 10 to Windows 11 with unsupported hardware, WITH TPM 2.0 and SecureBoot, you are greeted with a an agreement that basically says "you are on your own! If your system crashes, BSODs, whatever, you are on your own. In addition, you might not get updates in the future".

 

This agreement needs to be agreed BY THE USER. Sadly, it doesn't show up after you upgrade. So you basically agreed for a license agreement for the user. This is similar to signing a contract for another person without being aware off. This will results in legal issues. This is why people use sysprep once the OS is setup for the computer, so that the user gets the Windows license agreement, and can setup their account and everything. But that warning agreement doesn't show up there.

 

Windows 11 cannot be installed on a system without TPM 2.0 or SecureBoot without workarounds.

 

No, you cannot put a warning on the product page or add a paper in the box or something thinking it is "equivalent" either without express permission from Microsoft.

Once again, please seek legal professional for legal advice. I am not a legal expert.

 

 

Quote

I mean I don't sell computers with unactivated Windows, I always get keys for them before I sell, but usually the computers I get already have Windows 7, 8 or 10 keys on them which can be used to activate Windows 11. And it's not like this is a big operation or anything, I have on average 5 listing up at a time. The cost of seeing a lawyer for such a small operation would completely blow out any profit I get from this, so it doesn't make sense for me. Also, the link you posted was refering to importing counterfeit keys, which is not an activity I partake in, so this seems like an extremely different scenario.

It doesn't matter if you sell 1 computer in your lifetime or a million. Unless you have permission from Microsoft, or got the OK from your lawyer, assume you cannot do this, if you don't want legal trouble.

 

I also don't know if you'll need to follow the FULL OEMs/System Integrator minimum specs of Windows 11:

https://download.microsoft.com/download/7/8/8/788bf5ab-0751-4928-a22c-dffdc23c27f2/Minimum Hardware Requirements for Windows 11.pdf

 

Microsoft biggest issue, right now, is that they are fed up with:

• Windows lacking security compared to the competition, and CPU security issues (yes, Intel and AMD has released patches (which we don't know how good they actually are) for SOME CPU models, however, not only its not all CPUs, but motherboard manufactures and OEMs needs to release those BIOS updates so users can apply the fix... they aren't doing it for all but the most recent models)
• Windows not being stable and reliable mostly due to unsupported or poorly supported hardware by manufactures.
• Handle legacy hardware of ages ago

They are being attacked by those front, so Microsoft is puts its foot down with Windows 11, and aims that the majority of the systems have modern systems with all security fixes, and all hardware are fully supported by the manufactures, so that performance issues, stability issues and security issues can be fixed, and fixed in a timely fashion, and be actually delivered to users.

 

Microsoft was nice enough to not actually block, as of yet, every non-supported system, not to a point where they are no workarounds. .They perfectly could, if they want to. Microsoft hopes that user by-passing these requirements via available and documented by Microsoft doors, are knowledgeable enough, that if they have an issue, they understand that, yes, indeed they are on their own, it's not Windows 11 fault, but rather their incompatible system.

This may change tomorrow, all depending on which side of the bed Microsoft wakes up tomorrow. For now, its somewhat allowed.

 

Will Microsoft decides to go through every system builders and OEMs who don't comply with Win11 minimum system req? They definitely have the resources and all rights to do so. Up to you, to see if you are wanting to be attacked by not only Microsoft, but the user.

 

All you need to start the process is a user that isn't happy, or just a jerk-face, and complains to Microsoft or is board and gets his lawyer.

And assuming Microsoft doesn't care, and all is fine. You might also be at the attack by user feedback/reviews, saying you are selling Windows 11 with unsupported hardware destroying your reputation. Now, I am not going to claim for a moment that I know the market you are in. I am saying possibilities. Up to you to decide. And would Win11 install on a Core 2 Quad or Core i7 SandyBridge, or whatever, actually boost value of a system, by anything meaningful? 

 

All I can say, is that Windows 10 is supported until end of 2025. Once you get your hands on used 8th gen Intel CPUs, you should be good to go. Considering that most companies tend to replace all employee laptops every 3-4 years, that might be soon. So I don't know how it may affect you.

 

 

[PeterPorker3]

6 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

As I said, I am not a layer, nor anyone here. Getting legal advice on a forum is extremally poor decision.

You should seek a lawyer expert in the field, to get your answer.

 

All I can say, and that is your first hurtle:

Well when you upgrade Windows 10 to Windows 11 with unsupported hardware, WITH TPM 2.0 and SecureBoot, you are greeted with a an agreement that basically says "you are on your own! If your system crashes, BSODs, whatever, you are on your own. In addition, you might not get updates in the future".

 

This agreement needs to be agreed BY THE USER. Sadly, it doesn't show up after you upgrade. So you basically agreed for a license agreement for the user. This is similar to signing a contract for another person without being aware off. This will results in legal issues. This is why people use sysprep once the OS is setup for the computer, so that the user gets the Windows license agreement, and can setup their account and everything. But that warning agreement doesn't show up there.

 

Windows 11 cannot be installed on a system without TPM 2.0 or SecureBoot without workarounds.

 

No, you cannot put a warning on the product page or add a paper in the box or something thinking it is "equivalent" either without express permission from Microsoft.

Once again, please seek legal professional for legal advice. I am not a legal expert.

 

 

It doesn't matter if you sell 1 computer in your lifetime or a million. Unless you have permission from Microsoft, or got the OK from your lawyer, assume you cannot do this, if you don't want legal trouble.

 

I also don't know if you'll need to follow the FULL OEMs/System Integrator minimum specs of Windows 11:

https://download.microsoft.com/download/7/8/8/788bf5ab-0751-4928-a22c-dffdc23c27f2/Minimum Hardware Requirements for Windows 11.pdf

 

Microsoft biggest issue, right now, is that they are fed up with:

• Windows lacking security compared to the competition, and CPU security issues (yes, Intel and AMD has released patches (which we don't know how good they actually are) for SOME CPU models, however, not only its not all CPUs, but motherboard manufactures and OEMs needs to release those BIOS updates so users can apply the fix... they aren't doing it for all but the most recent models)
• Windows not being stable and reliable mostly due to unsupported or poorly supported hardware by manufactures.
• Handle legacy hardware of ages ago

They are being attacked by those front, so Microsoft is puts its foot down with Windows 11, and aims that the majority of the systems have modern systems with all security fixes, and all hardware are fully supported by the manufactures, so that performance issues, stability issues and security issues can be fixed, and fixed in a timely fashion, and be actually delivered to users.

 

Microsoft was nice enough to not actually block, as of yet, every non-supported system, not to a point where they are no workarounds. .They perfectly could, if they want to. Microsoft hopes that user by-passing these requirements via available and documented by Microsoft doors, are knowledgeable enough, that if they have an issue, they understand that, yes, indeed they are on their own, it's not Windows 11 fault, but rather their incompatible system.

This may change tomorrow, all depending on which side of the bed Microsoft wakes up tomorrow. For now, its somewhat allowed.

 

Will Microsoft decides to go through every system builders and OEMs who don't comply with Win11 minimum system req? They definitely have the resources and all rights to do so. Up to you, to see if you are wanting to be attacked by not only Microsoft, but the user.

 

All you need to start the process is a user that isn't happy, or just a jerk-face, and complains to Microsoft or is board and gets his lawyer.

And assuming Microsoft doesn't care, and all is fine. You might also be at the attack by user feedback/reviews, saying you are selling Windows 11 with unsupported hardware destroying your reputation. Now, I am not going to claim for a moment that I know the market you are in. I am saying possibilities. Up to you to decide. And would Win11 install on a Core 2 Quad or Core i7 SandyBridge, or whatever, actually boost value of a system, by anything meaningful? 

 

All I can say, is that Windows 10 is supported until end of 2025. Once you get your hands on used 8th gen Intel CPUs, you should be good to go. Considering that most companies tend to replace all employee laptops every 3-4 years, that might be soon. So I don't know how it may affect you.

 

 

I don't believe I ever asked for legal advice, and I'm also not sure why you attempted to give legal advice.. after saying to not ask for legal advice.

Look I don't want to get into an argument over this. I am not running a business here, this is just a direct person to person sale. I only sell one computer every 1.5 weeks. The reality they don't have the resources to hunt down every single person doing what I do out there, and thinking they do is unrealistic. If they did, half the eBay seller-refurbished computer market would probably not exist. I appreciate the information but I am discussing how this might affect people who buy my computers, and that's the limit to the scope of my question. I appreciate the information, however I have done my own evaluation and the legal risks of doing this are extremely low. Maybe things are different in Canada, but in the US stuff like that does not happen unless I sell lots of volume and are a registered business. Also, windows setup does not stop you from doing a clean install on unsupported hardware (no workaround needed anymore) and no agreement is asked to be agreed to prior to a clean install, so that issue seems to be less relevant in this case.

 

I also understand the argument that Microsoft doesn't want support calls about this, however the Windows licenses I use are OEM licenses that are already on the devices themselves, so support is up to the OEM that distributed that license and not up to Microsoft. And since these computers are no longer under an OEM warranty, the fallback is me. That's why I'm doing research prior to selling my systems with 11, because support is my responsibility.

Again, I appreciate the help, but your making a lot of assumptions about what I do and using outdated information. I'm just trying to figure out if anyone has discovered a functional issue with running Windows 11 on unsupported hardware. I will say that the threat of not receiving updates is noteworthy, but then again Windows 10 will also no longer receive updates after a period of time, so it seems like that's a problem no matter what.

[PeterPorker3]

Here are some other things I would like to add here for future readers because I have done some additional research. Apparently the oldest CPUs that are officially supported for Windows 10 21H1 are 5th gen Intel core. However, my job had just bought a bunch of Microsoft Certified Refurbished desktops, which where Dell OptiPlex 7020s with 4th gen i7s. So it seems Windows 10 has to play by the same rules as Windows 11, where Microsoft can at any point prevent systems not on the supported list from updating in the future. However if this would cause a problem, why then did a Microsoft Authorized Refurbisher sell my employer a bunch of systems that are not on the supported list?

So my thought process is this: If selling computers with Windows (regardless of version), even if it does not meet all of the requirements, is fine for Microsoft authorized refurbishers, it's probably fine for me. I get that Microsoft wants to improve security and constancy by encouraging people to upgrade, and doesn't want to provide software support for older systems, but in this case my costumers don't get any support from Microsoft anyways (as mentioned above) and I list the release year of the computer, I would think expectations should be set if one day in the distant future Microsoft ends support entirely for these systems, since these are older systems after all. They won't have support forever. The legal issues @GoodBytesmentioned don't seem to apply to this situation. As long as I do my testing and ensure the computers run fine with Windows 11, I don't see there being any issue with me doing so, especially since Haswell and before are not officially supported by even Windows 10, yet those systems are commonly sold with Windows 10 loaded. If I where to follow the advice above, I couldn't even sell Haswell systems with Windows 10, let alone Windows 11, which is ridiculous because Haswell chips are still perfectly usable. This is also not considering the fact that EVEN IF Microsoft plans to hard lock unsupported systems from updates in 11, the same is true with Windows 10 when it reaches its EOL date in 2025, no matter what the system is at risk of no longer receiving updates in the future.

Now with that logic, I could just install Windows 11 an all of my systems, but I feel that I should set some personal limits. From using some reports from Microsoft spokespeople and my own judgement, I will not be selling any system with Windows 11 unless they have the following:
 

• UEFI
• Secure Boot
• TPM 1.2 or better

I plan to ignore the CPU list, since everyone seems to be doing that anyway with Windows 10. Please let me know what you think. I will not be changing how I sell computers immediately, I'm going to wait for more Haswell CPU testing online before I start including Windows 11 on stuff of that generation.

[PeterPorker3]

Minor Correction: I did some more testing on my own. Apparently the ISO installer does actually check for minimum requirements and will prevent the installation of Windows 11 if they are met. However, the requirements above seem to be what it's checking for. As long as the system has UEFI, Secure Boot, some sort of TPM it will let you install it regardless of the TPM version and CPU model.

[Alby Tastic]

Frankly why bother?

I've installed Win 11 on about 8 unsupported machines - and have also got updates but if you're going to sell them with possible legal comebacks then just sell them with a legal version of Win 10 and if your customers want to experiment and something goes wrong it's not your problem.

It seems that you're hoping fitting Win 11 might give you a sales boost but frankly it's not worth the legal risk.